Velocity Reviews - Computer Hardware Reviews

Velocity Reviews > Newsgroups > Programming > C Programming > A Trend Towards Lower Software Maintenance Budgets?

Reply
Thread Tools

A Trend Towards Lower Software Maintenance Budgets?

 
 
Mark McIntyre
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-31-2007
On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 10:00:43 +0000, in comp.lang.c , Chris Dollin
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>He said /endlessly/. One ten-line fix might be cost-effective. A thousand
>might not be.


Define "cost effective". Within this year's budget?

>It's all choices of tradeoffs; one needs to know the business value and the
>expected costs.


Absolutely. Something that often escapes the XP zealots, just as the
virtue of rapid development cycles often escapes the plan-it-to-death
zealots.

--
Mark McIntyre

"Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place.
Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are,
by definition, not smart enough to debug it."
--Brian Kernighan
 
Reply With Quote
 
 
 
 
Ian Collins
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      11-01-2007
Mark McIntyre wrote:

> And anyway Extreme Programming is just a high-falutin Web 2.0ism for
> what most of us have done for decades, ie short-cycle continuous
> development to cope with rapidly changing (or inadequately defined!)
> business requirements, and a demand for rapid delivery of /something,
> anything/....
>

That's simply not true, XP predates whatever today's definition of Web 2
is by many years and it encompasses a lot more than short-cycle
continuous development.

--
Ian Collins.
 
Reply With Quote
 
 
 
 
Chris Dollin
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      11-01-2007
Mark McIntyre wrote:

> On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 10:00:43 +0000, in comp.lang.c , Chris Dollin
> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>>He said /endlessly/. One ten-line fix might be cost-effective. A thousand
>>might not be.

>
> Define "cost effective". Within this year's budget?


Situation-dependant. How could it not be?

>>It's all choices of tradeoffs; one needs to know the business value and the
>>expected costs.

>
> Absolutely. Something that often escapes the XP zealots,


Um ... XP's planning game is /about/ business value and costs. Those must
have been some interesting zealots. I suppose that's how we recognise
zealots of whatever stripe ...

--
Chris "zealously against zealotry" Dollin

Hewlett-Packard Limited registered office: Cain Road, Bracknell,
registered no: 690597 England Berks RG12 1HN

 
Reply With Quote
 
Mark McIntyre
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      11-01-2007
On Thu, 01 Nov 2007 08:48:27 +0000, in comp.lang.c , Chris Dollin
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>Um ... XP's planning game is /about/ business value and costs.


I wish... I've met some folk who regard XP as about shipping code as
fast as possible, scoring points over the plodders still using trad
methods, and then clearing out quick before the maintenance costs kick
in.

>Those must
>have been some interesting zealots. I suppose that's how we recognise
>zealots of whatever stripe ...


indeed !
--
Mark McIntyre

"Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place.
Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are,
by definition, not smart enough to debug it."
--Brian Kernighan
 
Reply With Quote
 
Mark McIntyre
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      11-01-2007
On Thu, 01 Nov 2007 14:23:11 +1300, in comp.lang.c , Ian Collins
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>XP predates whatever today's definition of Web 2
>is by many years and it encompasses a lot more than short-cycle
>continuous development.


XP as nametag in popular use is very recent. Sure, Kent dreamed it up
in the mid nineties, but it wasn't popularised till much later, and
the principles which XP embodies have been around for many decades.
--
Mark McIntyre

"Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place.
Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are,
by definition, not smart enough to debug it."
--Brian Kernighan
 
Reply With Quote
 
Chris Dollin
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      11-01-2007
Mark McIntyre wrote:

> On Thu, 01 Nov 2007 08:48:27 +0000, in comp.lang.c , Chris Dollin
> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>>Um ... XP's planning game is /about/ business value and costs.

>
> I wish...


Well, it is.

> I've met some folk who regard XP as about shipping code as
> fast as possible, scoring points over the plodders still using trad
> methods, and then clearing out quick before the maintenance costs kick
> in.


There is no method, however good, that can't be misused or abused by
sufficiently determined/ignorant/naive/malicious persons. I think the
"clearing out quick" is pretty obviously not in accordance with XP
as I have seen it expressed in the core books & mailing list (although
one wonders what the contractual situation was).

I think I've done enough atopical writing for the moment.

--
Chris "someone ask an interesting C question" Dollin

Hewlett-Packard Limited Cain Road, Bracknell, registered no:
registered office: Berks RG12 1HN 690597 England

 
Reply With Quote
 
Ian Collins
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      11-01-2007
Mark McIntyre wrote:
> On Thu, 01 Nov 2007 08:48:27 +0000, in comp.lang.c , Chris Dollin
> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>> Um ... XP's planning game is /about/ business value and costs.

>
> I wish... I've met some folk who regard XP as about shipping code as
> fast as possible, scoring points over the plodders still using trad
> methods, and then clearing out quick before the maintenance costs kick
> in.
>

Then they are using then name without applying the practices. Such
people give whatever they claim to be doing a bad name. Don't judge
something until you have seen how it should be done.

--
Ian Collins.
 
Reply With Quote
 
Ian Collins
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      11-01-2007
Mark McIntyre wrote:
> On Thu, 01 Nov 2007 14:23:11 +1300, in comp.lang.c , Ian Collins
> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>> XP predates whatever today's definition of Web 2
>> is by many years and it encompasses a lot more than short-cycle
>> continuous development.

>
> XP as nametag in popular use is very recent. Sure, Kent dreamed it up
> in the mid nineties, but it wasn't popularised till much later, and
> the principles which XP embodies have been around for many decades.


It was polularised (at least here) in the late nineties, I adopted it
for my shop in 2000.

The principles of XP have been around for ages, but Kent's light bulb
moment was pull them all together to build a people centric development
process.

--
Ian Collins.
 
Reply With Quote
 
Flash Gordon
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      11-01-2007
Walter Roberson wrote, On 31/10/07 19:33:
> In article <(E-Mail Removed)-gordon.me.uk>,
> Flash Gordon <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>> Sometimes code needs to be scrapped and
>> rewritten, sometimes it needs to be modified. This applies at all scales
>> (yes, I've been involved in scrapping and rewriting what after the
>> rewrite was about 50000 LOC). So blanket advice to scrap and rewrite is
>> bad advice just as blanket advice to always modify what you have is bad.

>
> Our particular development cycle usually involves writing something
> in a prototyping language (e.g., MATLAB, maple, Mathematica, IDL)


<snip>

> group that extracts the good parts and rewrites them cleanly and
> efficiently in C++ or C as part of our integrated research framework.
>
> It would not be unfair to say that at that point we are throwing
> out several 10's of kLOC and several person-years of coding, to be
> rewritten into a completely different form. This isn't a waste of
> time: it is the point that seperates the "Research" from the
> "Development".


None of which contradicts what I said. I'm sure you do not go throwing
away 10's of kLOC on every change prior to passing it over for the
re-implementation, and I'm sure it does not get thrown away every time
it needs a change after that point. I would also be surprised if each
time you need to change a module within that code base you threw it
away, or each time you changed a function within the module.

Throw away code when it needs throwing away, modify it when it needs
modifying.
--
Flash Gordon
 
Reply With Quote
 
Malcolm McLean
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      11-01-2007

"Flash Gordon" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>
> None of which contradicts what I said. I'm sure you do not go throwing
> away 10's of kLOC on every change prior to passing it over for the
> re-implementation, and I'm sure it does not get thrown away every time it
> needs a change after that point. I would also be surprised if each time
> you need to change a module within that code base you threw it away, or
> each time you changed a function within the module.
>
> Throw away code when it needs throwing away, modify it when it needs
> modifying.
>

Generally it is reckoned that you need to start over if you end up modifying
more than 20%. That's a much lower threshold than was previously accepted.

XP tends to look at existing practises, and instead of saying "here's an
inefficiency we must stamp out" it says "why is this practise current?".
Then it formalises it by incorporating it into the method. So partly it is
just political, things we've always done - had to do - are now part of "the
method" so there's no time wasted apologising for them or disguising them.
Rewriting code is a case in point. It is given a fancy name - "refactoring"
to get it past the men in suits.

--
Free games and programming goodies.
http://www.personal.leeds.ac.uk/~bgy1mm

 
Reply With Quote
 
 
 
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
A Trend Towards Lower Software Maintenance Budgets? editormt C++ 0 10-31-2007 03:34 PM
most software jobs are software maintenance rather than new development? apngss@yahoo.com C Programming 131 11-12-2005 07:23 PM
most software jobs are software maintenance rather than new development? apngss@yahoo.com Java 124 11-12-2005 07:23 PM
most software jobs are software maintenance rather than new development? apngss@yahoo.com C++ 134 11-12-2005 07:23 PM
Trend towards 16:9 or 2.35:1? Opticreep DVD Video 7 10-12-2004 11:51 AM



Advertisments