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Why No One Wins in the High-Def Format War

 
 
Derek Janssen
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-17-2007
Lloyd Parsons wrote:
>
>>>
>>>And Netflix is seeing more interest in HDDVD vs Blu Ray.

>>
>>They're seeing more RENTALS than Blu-ray, if that's the numbers they're
>>counting.


>>And I repeat: Guys, it's *okay* now. There's nothing wrong with liking
>>Blu-ray in public anymore.
>>Blu-D00d hasn't been back here in months.
>>(we must conquer our fears and traumas)

>
> But I think the reason for the Netflix HDDVD results is that for those
> that rent, the HDDVD player at less than $300 is a much better buy.
>
> And since the only real practical difference between the two formats is
> which studio is releasing for them, I think we will continue to see the
> same percentages for quite some time.


As far as studios, it's hardly fanboyism to say that
Paramount/Dreamworks took a BIG public-relations hit with the
"promotional incentives" they thought we wouldn't notice--
As long as we're counting on ignorant average people to save HD-DVD, the
biggest headlines they've heard of it are that somebody bribed
somebody--or worse, that Probably-Microsoft bribed somebody--and that
doesn't carry much positive association when the retail outlets for the
disk software begin decreasing.
Paramount's exclusivity "incentives" only last for an eighteen-month
renewable deal through Feb. '09, at which point we can imagine they'd
just *RUSH* to renew format exclusivity in a heartbeat...It was just
eighteen picnic months of fun for them!

And with studios believing that there will be some Halo-like opening-day
frenzy for "Transformers", the headline that ended up attached to that
is that Paramount implied they were forced to leave quality audio tracks
off the HD-DVD release because there was "no room" on the 30G disks...
For all the blu-side bragging and red-side jeering that gets kidded
about the disk-capacity issue, here we have the first headline-grabbing
test case for the courts. Joe Q. ILoveCheapPlayers may not know what
TrueHD audio is, but the tech news just couldn't resist playing a
Transformers-related story on Page 1.

> If the phony war was over today, I see no way that BD would win.
> Players are more expensive while being less featured. The PQ/AQ of what
> is actually released on both is the same when the studios bother to take
> advantage of it. The BD camp is in disarray with the new profiles
> supposedly coming at the end of the month, but yet no new profile player
> will be on sale before next year. And while my HDA2 has played every
> HDDVD I ever stuck in it without a firmware upgrade,


(...Wow, the DVD combos too? A good third of current owners would love
to have your player.)

> The signals coming out of the BD mfgs and studios is mass confusion
> about what it takes to create a market that is profitable and popular.
> The new ads talk about the interactive stuff in the newer profiles with
> no machine capable of doing that on the market. Call it potential or
> call it lies, but what it is, is deception. And that is a shame.


It's not deception to say that the disks have it and the players might
play it *someday*...And "someday" doesn't seem to bother BD fans all
that much.
Public perception still blames That Darn War for why companies haven't
been able to even standardize their own product, and although it's
currently Hip 2 Be Cynical about what's going on in Euro...er, Hi-Def,
cynicism and bi-loyalty isn't getting the player profiles out any faster.

If fear is dragging the market , it's fear of being stuck with 07's
stagnant product before '08 delivers any promised goodies.
Which makes adaptability to future systems the new scrip currency on the
Blu side of the war.

Derek Janssen (not a PS3 fanboy, just Tokyo-Rose'ing for the war to end
and the factories to reopen)
http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed)
 
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Derek Janssen
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-17-2007
Lloyd Parsons wrote:

>>
>>>The PS3 is the only real saving grace in the BD camp and even it isn't
>>>safe. Lots of the BD fan club is convinced that the PS3 can and will be
>>>upgraded to the new profiles, but Sony has been completely mum about it.
>>>And then there is the issue of the PS3 being a game machine and lots of
>>>us wouldn't buy it at all because of that.

>>
>> Upgrade? Where have you been? The PS3 NOW does True HD non compressed
>>audio.


>> It also plays HD BR movies.
>>
>> It ALSO plays games.

>
> Nothing wrong with the PS3 except for the poor sales compared to other
> gaming systems, and the relative lack of quality games specifically for
> it.


What year are you living in that we're still juding PS3 as a
game-industry machine?...Was it some year before the Wii came out?

PS3 has no reason left (certainly not games) to sell itself as anything
*but* an odd-looking Blu-ray player that's been getting its share of the
good tech reviews--
Unless, like me, you happen to be somebody in the "gamer-curious"
non-gamer camp who never owned a PS2 in his life, in which case...ermmm,
it's worth considering.

> But TrueHD has exactly zero to do with Profile 1.1. Profile 1.1, among
> other things, requires interactivity like PIP and such. While the
> feeling is that the PS3 has enough ooomph to be upgraded via firmware to
> that new profile, Sony is completely mum about it.


Yeah, and Sharp's still mum about its player specs--
If they're making it up as they go along, at least it's fresh out of the
oven.

> So maybe you should answer where you've been!
>
> And that is the point. Even assuming that the PS3 will be upgraded to
> the new profile, all the rest of the BD players cannot be. So it is
> either buy a new BD player, buy a PS3 or do without the new to BD things
> that profile 1.1 allows for.


Uh, gee, Alex, I'll go with "Buy a PS3, since it seems to work"! ^_^

Derek Janssen (who, FTR, hasn't played a PS game since Final Fantasy
VII, on that Mac-emulator patch. For PS1. Eleven years ago.)
(E-Mail Removed)
 
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ChairmanOfTheBored
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-17-2007
On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 05:02:10 GMT, Derek Janssen
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>Lloyd Parsons wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>>And Netflix is seeing more interest in HDDVD vs Blu Ray.
>>>
>>>They're seeing more RENTALS than Blu-ray, if that's the numbers they're
>>>counting.

>
>>>And I repeat: Guys, it's *okay* now. There's nothing wrong with liking
>>>Blu-ray in public anymore.
>>>Blu-D00d hasn't been back here in months.
>>>(we must conquer our fears and traumas)

>>
>> But I think the reason for the Netflix HDDVD results is that for those
>> that rent, the HDDVD player at less than $300 is a much better buy.
>>
>> And since the only real practical difference between the two formats is
>> which studio is releasing for them, I think we will continue to see the
>> same percentages for quite some time.

>
>As far as studios, it's hardly fanboyism to say that
>Paramount/Dreamworks took a BIG public-relations hit with the
>"promotional incentives" they thought we wouldn't notice--
>As long as we're counting on ignorant average people to save HD-DVD, the
>biggest headlines they've heard of it are that somebody bribed
>somebody--or worse, that Probably-Microsoft bribed somebody--and that
>doesn't carry much positive association when the retail outlets for the
>disk software begin decreasing.
>Paramount's exclusivity "incentives" only last for an eighteen-month
>renewable deal through Feb. '09, at which point we can imagine they'd
>just *RUSH* to renew format exclusivity in a heartbeat...It was just
>eighteen picnic months of fun for them!
>
>And with studios believing that there will be some Halo-like opening-day
>frenzy for "Transformers", the headline that ended up attached to that
>is that Paramount implied they were forced to leave quality audio tracks
>off the HD-DVD release because there was "no room" on the 30G disks...
>For all the blu-side bragging and red-side jeering that gets kidded
>about the disk-capacity issue, here we have the first headline-grabbing
>test case for the courts. Joe Q. ILoveCheapPlayers may not know what
>TrueHD audio is, but the tech news just couldn't resist playing a
>Transformers-related story on Page 1.
>
>> If the phony war was over today, I see no way that BD would win.
>> Players are more expensive while being less featured. The PQ/AQ of what
>> is actually released on both is the same when the studios bother to take
>> advantage of it. The BD camp is in disarray with the new profiles
>> supposedly coming at the end of the month, but yet no new profile player
>> will be on sale before next year. And while my HDA2 has played every
>> HDDVD I ever stuck in it without a firmware upgrade,

>
>(...Wow, the DVD combos too? A good third of current owners would love
>to have your player.)
>
>> The signals coming out of the BD mfgs and studios is mass confusion
>> about what it takes to create a market that is profitable and popular.
>> The new ads talk about the interactive stuff in the newer profiles with
>> no machine capable of doing that on the market. Call it potential or
>> call it lies, but what it is, is deception. And that is a shame.

>
>It's not deception to say that the disks have it and the players might
>play it *someday*...And "someday" doesn't seem to bother BD fans all
>that much.
>Public perception still blames That Darn War for why companies haven't
>been able to even standardize their own product, and although it's
>currently Hip 2 Be Cynical about what's going on in Euro...er, Hi-Def,
>cynicism and bi-loyalty isn't getting the player profiles out any faster.
>
>If fear is dragging the market , it's fear of being stuck with 07's
>stagnant product before '08 delivers any promised goodies.
>Which makes adaptability to future systems the new scrip currency on the
>Blu side of the war.
>
>Derek Janssen (not a PS3 fanboy, just Tokyo-Rose'ing for the war to end
>and the factories to reopen)
>(E-Mail Removed)



I think that Paramount takes a bigger hit by releasing no frills titles
in the new format, proving that they are the same, money grubbing dopes
they were before.

A chapter liner and a few extra, like at least the trailers would be a
nice start. The lazy, money grubbing bastards.
 
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ChairmanOfTheBored
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-17-2007
On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 05:09:55 GMT, Derek Janssen
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>Lloyd Parsons wrote:
>
>>>
>>>>The PS3 is the only real saving grace in the BD camp and even it isn't
>>>>safe. Lots of the BD fan club is convinced that the PS3 can and will be
>>>>upgraded to the new profiles, but Sony has been completely mum about it.
>>>>And then there is the issue of the PS3 being a game machine and lots of
>>>>us wouldn't buy it at all because of that.
>>>
>>> Upgrade? Where have you been? The PS3 NOW does True HD non compressed
>>>audio.

>
>>> It also plays HD BR movies.
>>>
>>> It ALSO plays games.

>>
>> Nothing wrong with the PS3 except for the poor sales compared to other
>> gaming systems, and the relative lack of quality games specifically for
>> it.

>
>What year are you living in that we're still juding PS3 as a
>game-industry machine?...Was it some year before the Wii came out?
>
>PS3 has no reason left (certainly not games) to sell itself as anything
>*but* an odd-looking Blu-ray player that's been getting its share of the
>good tech reviews--


Bullshit. It is far more than that.

http://cag.csail.mit.edu/ps3/lecture...ture2-cell.pdf

>Unless, like me, you happen to be somebody in the "gamer-curious"
>non-gamer camp who never owned a PS2 in his life, in which case...ermmm,
>it's worth considering.


Oh, and try:

http://cag.csail.mit.edu/ps3/index.shtml

Then there's:

http://www-304.ibm.com/jct09002c/uni...ell/index.html


PS3s are far more than you give them credit for. I have yet to buy a
game for mine. At $60 a pop, the idiots can keep 'em.

Too bad you won't be able to DL and load and look at those demos of the
Cell CPU's capabilities done by MIT students.

Awesome stuff coming down the pipe.

Try to stay somewhere within a few miles of the curve. :-]
 
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Bill Vermillion
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-17-2007
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
Doug Jacobs <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>Tarkus <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> Doug Jacobs wrote:


>> > * More likely than not, we'll see hybrid or combo players
>> > before too long. While this solves the consumer's conndrum
>> > of choosing between, say, Transformers and Pirates, it
>> > basically turns the HD video market into the same mess that
>> > is today's burnable DVD market.


>> What's so messy about today's burnable DVD market?


>You've got DVD-R, DVD+R, DVD-RW, DVD+RW, and then dual-layer
>variations of all of those.


They all work - I have no problem with them.

>Some devices can only play DVD-R(W)s, whereas some can only play
>DVD+R(W)s.


And most of those are gone. The early Panasonic DVRs only like
DVD-R and DVD-RAM, now they operate on all formats.

And I've not seen a player in years that won't handle most
everyithing.

>Which is which? Well, you won't know until you burn yourself a
>few coasters!


I've had a couple of coasters - but that was because somewhere the
signal into the DVR was corrupted by cable and the transfer from
HDD to DVD-R failed. The solution was to copy to DVD-RAM and then
copy it on my computer. I've had under 10 coasters in the last
year - with probably well over 1000 burnded disks. I'm into my
second box of 1000 paper sleeves.

>Yeah, that's a consumer friendly solution! Let's release 2
>formats that do the same thing, with no discernable differences
>to the consumer, and let them "choose" a winner! Oh wait, here's
>a multi-format burner that can handle both formats! So now both
>formats can "survive" but individual manfuacturers are still
>free to decide which format their devices will support. Yeah,
>that's a good win-win solution for everyone! Well, except for the
>consumer.


What I'm looking for is the next generation of the Blu-Ray for
data backup. The 100GB+ per disk makes it a better match for
todays' booming copacaties. I've had to upgrade tape drives for
customers. And don't say 'backup to disk' because at least one
of the customers 'business interuption insurance' will not pay
for revenue lost IF THERE ARE NOT OFF SITE BACKUPS. And rotating
disk drives in and out of building is a lot harder than having
someone take a tape home each night or two.

>Meanwhile, a CDR is a CDR is a CDR. There's none of this stupidity of
>having 2 identical, but incompatible, formats.


Not identical. Look at the specs. The Blu-Ray is more advanced
with everyting being record in 'the groove', while the HD records
some timing information on the land and other in the groove. That
strike me as more of a hack/kludge than real engineering.

>Going forward, do you see the HD formats getting any easier?
>We'll have Blu-Ray, Blu-Ray-R, Blu-Ray-RW and its variations for
>multi-layers, then we'll have HD-DVD, HD-DVD-R, HD-DVD-RW and its
>own variations for its multilayered discs.


I doubt it will get to that before one or the other formats take
over.

>It's not broken. It's...advanced.


I'll let you test drive it first - if you survive then it's ok.
It's like make the first flight in a home-built aircraft
or



--
Bill Vermillion - bv @ wjv . com
 
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Bill Vermillion
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-17-2007
In article <AibRi.2612$pl2.1912@trndny09>,
Derek Janssen <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>Tarkus wrote:
>>
>> That's pretty much an obsolete problem. Virtually all new players play
>> all formats (save for maybe DVD-RAM), and most consumers, myself
>> included, don't even pay attention to -R and +R anymore, and just look
>> for the best deal. If HD combo players become the norm, the same thing
>> will happen.

>
>Yeah, we just have to wait five or so years until $1200 players meet the
>even "maximum" $500-$600 of an average-level Blu player--


Locally Sony Blu-Ray are about $450 at Costco with HD at about
$250.

Bill
--
Bill Vermillion - bv @ wjv . com
 
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Doug Jacobs
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-18-2007
ChairmanOfTheBored <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> >PS3 has no reason left (certainly not games) to sell itself as anything
> >*but* an odd-looking Blu-ray player that's been getting its share of the
> >good tech reviews--


> Bullshit. It is far more than that.


> http://cag.csail.mit.edu/ps3/lecture...ture2-cell.pdf


Irrelevent. This isn't a PC - it's a game console. An appliance. You
don't choose which stove to buy because of which embedded processor it
uses, do you?

> >Unless, like me, you happen to be somebody in the "gamer-curious"
> >non-gamer camp who never owned a PS2 in his life, in which case...ermmm,
> >it's worth considering.


> Oh, and try:


> http://cag.csail.mit.edu/ps3/index.shtml


Oh yes! That's exactly what the common customer wants! A programming
manual for a highly specialized, over-hyped platform that's getting its
collective cores handed to it by another console that involves waggling
the controller around like an excited 6 year old.

> Then there's:


> http://www-304.ibm.com/jct09002c/uni...ell/index.html



> PS3s are far more than you give them credit for. I have yet to buy a
> game for mine. At $60 a pop, the idiots can keep 'em.


> Too bad you won't be able to DL and load and look at those demos of the
> Cell CPU's capabilities done by MIT students.


Um. Why would I want to? Why would I want to spend $600 on such a niche
piece of hardware just to look at low-level programming demos?

You fail to understand that the PS3 is NOT being marketed as a programming
platform for eager computer science students.

It's being marketed as a game console and movie player. And at least as a
game console, it has been found to be lacking. No compelling exclusives,
more expensive than its competitors, no better graphics than its nearest
competitor - in short, almost NOTHING to justify its high price.

I'm glad you think it's a neat programming platform. You're probably part
of .1% of the entire market who even KNOWS that the PS3 can be used in
this manner.

> Awesome stuff coming down the pipe.


> Try to stay somewhere within a few miles of the curve. :-]


Yeah, yeah, that's what all the Sony fanbois have been saying "just you
wait...you'll see..." But in the meantime, people are looking around at
what's available NOW, and the PS3 just can't compete. Sure, there's a lot
planned for the PS3 over the next 6 months - but there's a lot planned for
the other guys too.

--
It's not broken. It's...advanced.
 
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Doug Jacobs
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-18-2007
Bill Vermillion <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> What I'm looking for is the next generation of the Blu-Ray for
> data backup. The 100GB+ per disk makes it a better match for
> todays' booming copacaties. I've had to upgrade tape drives for
> customers. And don't say 'backup to disk' because at least one
> of the customers 'business interuption insurance' will not pay
> for revenue lost IF THERE ARE NOT OFF SITE BACKUPS. And rotating
> disk drives in and out of building is a lot harder than having
> someone take a tape home each night or two.


By the time we have blu-ray up in the 100GB range, it's going to be too
small for much of the use you're thinking of because we'll be into the
multi-terrabyte drive arrays even for modestly sized businesses. I've
heard about a new format that's probably about 4-5 years out from the
first consumer products that will store 1TB on a single layer. However
even that may be too little too late if drive arrays become commonplace.

As for off-site backups, dropping an array in a few remote data centers
would do the trick, no? Or do the insurance policies specifically state
backups must be made on some form of removable media - therefore making
them highly suspectible to theft, loss, degradation and corruption?

> >Meanwhile, a CDR is a CDR is a CDR. There's none of this stupidity of
> >having 2 identical, but incompatible, formats.


> Not identical. Look at the specs. The Blu-Ray is more advanced
> with everyting being record in 'the groove', while the HD records
> some timing information on the land and other in the groove. That
> strike me as more of a hack/kludge than real engineering.


Technical details. Both formats provide the same end-result. I'm talking
about differences that you don't need to be an engineer to understand.
VHS and Betamax had differences that the consumer could understand and
evaluate. With HD-DVD and Blu-Ray, there are virtually no differences in
either the video or data market segments.

> >Going forward, do you see the HD formats getting any easier?
> >We'll have Blu-Ray, Blu-Ray-R, Blu-Ray-RW and its variations for
> >multi-layers, then we'll have HD-DVD, HD-DVD-R, HD-DVD-RW and its
> >own variations for its multilayered discs.


> I doubt it will get to that before one or the other formats take
> over.




--
It's not broken. It's...advanced.
 
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Derek Janssen
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-19-2007
Doug Jacobs wrote:

> ChairmanOfTheBored <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>>>PS3 has no reason left (certainly not games) to sell itself as anything
>>>*but* an odd-looking Blu-ray player that's been getting its share of the
>>>good tech reviews--

>
>> Bullshit. It is far more than that.


<Doug pretending Bored With Himself is an actual poster, snipped>

> I'm glad you think it's a neat programming platform. You're probably part
> of .1% of the entire market who even KNOWS that the PS3 can be used in
> this manner.


(Continuing the hopeful "Maybe if people are STUPID enough, they'll buy
the competition anyway!" motif...)

> Yeah, yeah, that's what all the Sony fanbois have been saying "just you
> wait...you'll see..." But in the meantime, people are looking around at
> what's available NOW, and the PS3 just can't compete. Sure, there's a lot
> planned for the PS3 over the next 6 months - but there's a lot planned for
> the other guys too.


Well, I tend to trust the more general neutral-reviews sources like, for
example...CNet.com:
http://reviews.cnet.com/4321-6463_7-6509000.html
(With caveat that most of the PS3 information in the review dates back
to pre-firmware Nov. '06, as does the previous posters')

----
- Panasonic DMP-BD10 Editors rating: 6.5 Users' rating: 8.3
The Panasonic DMP-BD10 is a very competent first-generation Blu-ray
player, but its high price and the comparably affordable PlayStation 3
make it hard to recommend.

- Philips BDP-9000 Editors' rating: 6.3 Users' rating: 9.0
The Philips BDP9000 has some great design touches and excellent Blu-ray
image quality, but its high price, less-comprehensive audio capabilities
and the comparative affordability of the PlayStation 3 suggest that you
should probably hold off.

- Samsung BD-P1200 Editors' rating: 7.4 Users' rating: 7.1
With excellent image quality, slick design and an attractive feature set
the Samsung BD-P1200 is the best dedicated Blu-ray player yet, but its
high price will scare away most buyers, compared to the...OKAY, WE GET
THE FLIPPIN' IDEA!!!
----

Derek Janssen (I just don't get what they're trying to say, here...)
(E-Mail Removed)
 
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ChairmanOfTheBored
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-19-2007
On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:21:38 -0000, Doug Jacobs <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

>Irrelevent. This isn't a PC - it's a game console. An appliance. You
>don't choose which stove to buy because of which embedded processor it
>uses, do you?



It's a COMPUTER, which has a primary design as a proprietary gaming
console to suck cash out of father's pockets.

It is, however, first and foremost, a COMPUTER.

Nice skim over the link. You should actually look through it a bit.
You might learn that it is like ten time faster than a PC.

You ain't real bright, boy.
 
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