Specialized information needed

The short story here is that I had an interview with a company who valued the
skill assessments of "provit.com" more then "microsoft.com". That is not how
they saw it but they didn’t think it thru. Basically they said “that’s nice
you are certified but we want you to take our exam�.

What I am curious about is this. How much money does Microsoft spend
perfecting their exam process? Clearly they pick questions and subject
matters they feel are important in a developer position and clearly that
takes time and money. I am more curious because I am thinking about basically
advertising the quality of certification when I am being interviewed because
clearly there are a lot of companies who are completely clueless.

=?Utf-8?B?U2Vhbg==?=

That is nothing to do with M$ or any cert in gerenal. Nowdays, a lot of
SWcompanies need you to write entry exam. Besides, all the exams I wrote is
in fundamental programming stuff, such as link list search, Btree, and OS
process. You know those second/third year CS stuff, none of those are in the
cert exams.
Egghead
"Sean" <> wrote in message
news:887F1138-F02A-4F61-AB05-...
> The short story here is that I had an interview with a company who valued
the
> skill assessments of "provit.com" more then "microsoft.com". That is not
how
> they saw it but they didn't think it thru. Basically they said "that's
nice
> you are certified but we want you to take our exam".
>
> What I am curious about is this. How much money does Microsoft spend
> perfecting their exam process? Clearly they pick questions and subject
> matters they feel are important in a developer position and clearly that
> takes time and money. I am more curious because I am thinking about
basically
> advertising the quality of certification when I am being interviewed
because
> clearly there are a lot of companies who are completely clueless.
>

Egghead

That doesnt answer my question.

Bottom line in my view, if MS found those questions important, they would
ask them. They dont.

"Egghead" wrote:

> That is nothing to do with M$ or any cert in gerenal. Nowdays, a lot of
> SWcompanies need you to write entry exam. Besides, all the exams I wrote is
> in fundamental programming stuff, such as link list search, Btree, and OS
> process. You know those second/third year CS stuff, none of those are in the
> cert exams.
> Egghead
> "Sean" <> wrote in message
> news:887F1138-F02A-4F61-AB05-...
> > The short story here is that I had an interview with a company who valued
> the
> > skill assessments of "provit.com" more then "microsoft.com". That is not
> how
> > they saw it but they didn't think it thru. Basically they said "that's
> nice
> > you are certified but we want you to take our exam".
> >
> > What I am curious about is this. How much money does Microsoft spend
> > perfecting their exam process? Clearly they pick questions and subject
> > matters they feel are important in a developer position and clearly that
> > takes time and money. I am more curious because I am thinking about
> basically
> > advertising the quality of certification when I am being interviewed
> because
> > clearly there are a lot of companies who are completely clueless.
> >
>
>
>

=?Utf-8?B?U2Vhbg==?=

added:

MCAD is very clear, it’s called Application Developer. Not Class, memory
allocation, programming language creator.

Microsoft tests you over specific skills they find important for one to
actually make an application with existing tools available. There are
currently so many tools and classes learning most of the tools and classes is
a major skill set in of itself. It would be a shame to re-create
functionality that already exists. Microsoft seems to understand this.

So in short, when someone walks into an interview with MCAD or MCSD and the
interviewer wants to give that person an extensive test what that interviewer
is basically saying is that they PERSONALLY know which skills are more
important to build an application then Microsoft does.

Now I am not saying that is not impossible and I understand that specific
firms have specific needs. However, is it asking too much for interviewers to
take out about 1 hour of their day to review what these certification
actually cover?

When interviewers start asking me questions about “screen scraping� I feel
like asking them to explain to me in what an XmlNamespaceManager is and why
you would need to use it.

=?Utf-8?B?U2Vhbg==?=

On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 06:34:02 -0800, "Sean"
<> wrote:

>added:
>
>MCAD is very clear, it’s called Application Developer. Not Class, memory
>allocation, programming language creator.
>
>Microsoft tests you over specific skills they find important for one to
>actually make an application with existing tools available. There are
>currently so many tools and classes learning most of the tools and classes is
>a major skill set in of itself. It would be a shame to re-create
>functionality that already exists. Microsoft seems to understand this.
>
>So in short, when someone walks into an interview with MCAD or MCSD and the
>interviewer wants to give that person an extensive test what that interviewer
>is basically saying is that they PERSONALLY know which skills are more
>important to build an application then Microsoft does.
>
>Now I am not saying that is not impossible and I understand that specific
>firms have specific needs. However, is it asking too much for interviewers to
>take out about 1 hour of their day to review what these certification
>actually cover?
>
>When interviewers start asking me questions about “screen scraping” I feel
>like asking them to explain to me in what an XmlNamespaceManager is and why
>you would need to use it.
I think that basically, employers realise that an awful lot of people
get MS certifications using brain dumps rather than doing any real
world work or study, and would rather have someone who knows what
they're about, than someone who can memorise the answers to a few
questions.

chappycheeky

Three points on that topic

1. I would venture to say that most people don’t cheat because if you read
the questions it should be immediately clear to people with an IQ above 2
that this is material one cant simply "wing it" while actually developing.

2. Because of point one, people who cheat at this level are not to bright
(its like being a Communications major and trying to pretend you are a
History major because you cheated on an exam its not going to hide that lie)
thus its easy to get a pretty good idea if someone cheated by asking some key
questions which aren’t even technical of which I do not want to post here
because it would be ammunition for those who do cheat.

3. Because about 1/2 the questions I have been asked aren’t even remotely
related to certification topics (an arguably not even important) its clear to
me that many interviewers have no clue or desire to even find out what topics
the MCAD/MCSD exams cover!

Having said all this I have a story to share.

I had an interview in which the recruiter was having an extremely hard time
finding a candidate who could answer the technical screening questions from
the employer for this entry level .Net position. Just so happens I was the
only one who nailed his quiz and actually did better then a CompSci PHD
candidate.
Now I do want to clarify that the reason I nailed that quiz is because the
questions he had asked was over material I just happened to have been
reviewing again for .Net 2.0. In other words, had he asked me a lot of
questions about Serviced Components I most likely would have failed because I
haven’t looked at that material in almost a year now.
When I met this guy face to face I mentioned to him that every single
question he asked was directly related to my MCAD study. He got offended and
offensive. He told me that the job was for ASP.NET on C# and I told him that
was the specific test I took. What nailed my coffin was that I pointed out to
him that I was an Information Systems major not a CompSci major which is in
bold on the second line of my resume. If he cant take the time out to read
the first 3 lines of my resume how can I expect him to have clue about my
MCAD study?

When I got back home I received another call from a recruiter/developer who
has 20 years of programming behind him and is currently working on XML
WebServices. He told me that one day he decided to go take an MCAD exam and
see how it was and he failed. He said “you wrote in your cover letter that
your study was 6000+ pages of complex study…that’s about right�.

=?Utf-8?B?U2Vhbg==?=

I too have more than 20 years of exp and IQ above 2. If you think that you
can measure the value of exp in a test with some 40 out of 100 or so
questions you are wrong. I think your assumption that you can teach the
recruiter how great you are because you can answer 40 questions is
questionable... Grades and certs are nice, but they are not directly
descriptive of talent.

Tell me what is best, 6000+ pages of complex study or the time it takes to
do 6000+ pages of complex study developing cutting-edge solutions.

"Sean" <> wrote in message
news:21E224AA-7E90-446D-85C7-...
> Three points on that topic
>
> 1. I would venture to say that most people don't cheat because if you read
> the questions it should be immediately clear to people with an IQ above 2
> that this is material one cant simply "wing it" while actually developing.
>
> 2. Because of point one, people who cheat at this level are not to bright
> (its like being a Communications major and trying to pretend you are a
> History major because you cheated on an exam its not going to hide that
> lie)
> thus its easy to get a pretty good idea if someone cheated by asking some
> key
> questions which aren't even technical of which I do not want to post here
> because it would be ammunition for those who do cheat.
>
> 3. Because about 1/2 the questions I have been asked aren't even remotely
> related to certification topics (an arguably not even important) its clear
> to
> me that many interviewers have no clue or desire to even find out what
> topics
> the MCAD/MCSD exams cover!
>
> Having said all this I have a story to share.
>
> I had an interview in which the recruiter was having an extremely hard
> time
> finding a candidate who could answer the technical screening questions
> from
> the employer for this entry level .Net position. Just so happens I was the
> only one who nailed his quiz and actually did better then a CompSci PHD
> candidate.
> Now I do want to clarify that the reason I nailed that quiz is because the
> questions he had asked was over material I just happened to have been
> reviewing again for .Net 2.0. In other words, had he asked me a lot of
> questions about Serviced Components I most likely would have failed
> because I
> haven't looked at that material in almost a year now.
> When I met this guy face to face I mentioned to him that every single
> question he asked was directly related to my MCAD study. He got offended
> and
> offensive. He told me that the job was for ASP.NET on C# and I told him
> that
> was the specific test I took. What nailed my coffin was that I pointed out
> to
> him that I was an Information Systems major not a CompSci major which is
> in
> bold on the second line of my resume. If he cant take the time out to read
> the first 3 lines of my resume how can I expect him to have clue about my
> MCAD study?
>
> When I got back home I received another call from a recruiter/developer
> who
> has 20 years of programming behind him and is currently working on XML
> WebServices. He told me that one day he decided to go take an MCAD exam
> and
> see how it was and he failed. He said "you wrote in your cover letter that
> your study was 6000+ pages of complex study.that's about right".
>

Gorm Braarvig

what I am comparing and ONLY what I am comparing is the following

MCAD vs interviewer self created exam

That is the ONLY comparision I am trying to illustrate here.

The guy I talked to with 20 years of XP knows a LOT more then I do. The
point I was making is that MCAD is very specific and it might intrest
employers to find out what those specifics are and then ask themselves one
question "why does Microsoft find these particualar skills important"

I dont know how I can drill down this story anymore basic then what I have
now said.

"Gorm Braarvig" wrote:

> I too have more than 20 years of exp and IQ above 2. If you think that you
> can measure the value of exp in a test with some 40 out of 100 or so
> questions you are wrong. I think your assumption that you can teach the
> recruiter how great you are because you can answer 40 questions is
> questionable... Grades and certs are nice, but they are not directly
> descriptive of talent.
>
> Tell me what is best, 6000+ pages of complex study or the time it takes to
> do 6000+ pages of complex study developing cutting-edge solutions.
>
> "Sean" <> wrote in message
> news:21E224AA-7E90-446D-85C7-...
> > Three points on that topic
> >
> > 1. I would venture to say that most people don't cheat because if you read
> > the questions it should be immediately clear to people with an IQ above 2
> > that this is material one cant simply "wing it" while actually developing.
> >
> > 2. Because of point one, people who cheat at this level are not to bright
> > (its like being a Communications major and trying to pretend you are a
> > History major because you cheated on an exam its not going to hide that
> > lie)
> > thus its easy to get a pretty good idea if someone cheated by asking some
> > key
> > questions which aren't even technical of which I do not want to post here
> > because it would be ammunition for those who do cheat.
> >
> > 3. Because about 1/2 the questions I have been asked aren't even remotely
> > related to certification topics (an arguably not even important) its clear
> > to
> > me that many interviewers have no clue or desire to even find out what
> > topics
> > the MCAD/MCSD exams cover!
> >
> > Having said all this I have a story to share.
> >
> > I had an interview in which the recruiter was having an extremely hard
> > time
> > finding a candidate who could answer the technical screening questions
> > from
> > the employer for this entry level .Net position. Just so happens I was the
> > only one who nailed his quiz and actually did better then a CompSci PHD
> > candidate.
> > Now I do want to clarify that the reason I nailed that quiz is because the
> > questions he had asked was over material I just happened to have been
> > reviewing again for .Net 2.0. In other words, had he asked me a lot of
> > questions about Serviced Components I most likely would have failed
> > because I
> > haven't looked at that material in almost a year now.
> > When I met this guy face to face I mentioned to him that every single
> > question he asked was directly related to my MCAD study. He got offended
> > and
> > offensive. He told me that the job was for ASP.NET on C# and I told him
> > that
> > was the specific test I took. What nailed my coffin was that I pointed out
> > to
> > him that I was an Information Systems major not a CompSci major which is
> > in
> > bold on the second line of my resume. If he cant take the time out to read
> > the first 3 lines of my resume how can I expect him to have clue about my
> > MCAD study?
> >
> > When I got back home I received another call from a recruiter/developer
> > who
> > has 20 years of programming behind him and is currently working on XML
> > WebServices. He told me that one day he decided to go take an MCAD exam
> > and
> > see how it was and he failed. He said "you wrote in your cover letter that
> > your study was 6000+ pages of complex study.that's about right".
> >
>
>
>

=?Utf-8?B?U2Vhbg==?=

Here is a blond joke for you:
http://gorm-braarvig.blogspot.com/20...lond-joke.html

"Sean" <> wrote in message
news:49F6B901-5757-42F5-B623-...
> what I am comparing and ONLY what I am comparing is the following
>
> MCAD vs interviewer self created exam
>
> That is the ONLY comparision I am trying to illustrate here.
>
> The guy I talked to with 20 years of XP knows a LOT more then I do. The
> point I was making is that MCAD is very specific and it might intrest
> employers to find out what those specifics are and then ask themselves one
> question "why does Microsoft find these particualar skills important"
>
> I dont know how I can drill down this story anymore basic then what I have
> now said.
>
> "Gorm Braarvig" wrote:
>
>> I too have more than 20 years of exp and IQ above 2. If you think that
>> you
>> can measure the value of exp in a test with some 40 out of 100 or so
>> questions you are wrong. I think your assumption that you can teach the
>> recruiter how great you are because you can answer 40 questions is
>> questionable... Grades and certs are nice, but they are not directly
>> descriptive of talent.
>>
>> Tell me what is best, 6000+ pages of complex study or the time it takes
>> to
>> do 6000+ pages of complex study developing cutting-edge solutions.
>>
>> "Sean" <> wrote in message
>> news:21E224AA-7E90-446D-85C7-...
>> > Three points on that topic
>> >
>> > 1. I would venture to say that most people don't cheat because if you
>> > read
>> > the questions it should be immediately clear to people with an IQ above
>> > 2
>> > that this is material one cant simply "wing it" while actually
>> > developing.
>> >
>> > 2. Because of point one, people who cheat at this level are not to
>> > bright
>> > (its like being a Communications major and trying to pretend you are a
>> > History major because you cheated on an exam its not going to hide that
>> > lie)
>> > thus its easy to get a pretty good idea if someone cheated by asking
>> > some
>> > key
>> > questions which aren't even technical of which I do not want to post
>> > here
>> > because it would be ammunition for those who do cheat.
>> >
>> > 3. Because about 1/2 the questions I have been asked aren't even
>> > remotely
>> > related to certification topics (an arguably not even important) its
>> > clear
>> > to
>> > me that many interviewers have no clue or desire to even find out what
>> > topics
>> > the MCAD/MCSD exams cover!
>> >
>> > Having said all this I have a story to share.
>> >
>> > I had an interview in which the recruiter was having an extremely hard
>> > time
>> > finding a candidate who could answer the technical screening questions
>> > from
>> > the employer for this entry level .Net position. Just so happens I was
>> > the
>> > only one who nailed his quiz and actually did better then a CompSci PHD
>> > candidate.
>> > Now I do want to clarify that the reason I nailed that quiz is because
>> > the
>> > questions he had asked was over material I just happened to have been
>> > reviewing again for .Net 2.0. In other words, had he asked me a lot of
>> > questions about Serviced Components I most likely would have failed
>> > because I
>> > haven't looked at that material in almost a year now.
>> > When I met this guy face to face I mentioned to him that every single
>> > question he asked was directly related to my MCAD study. He got
>> > offended
>> > and
>> > offensive. He told me that the job was for ASP.NET on C# and I told him
>> > that
>> > was the specific test I took. What nailed my coffin was that I pointed
>> > out
>> > to
>> > him that I was an Information Systems major not a CompSci major which
>> > is
>> > in
>> > bold on the second line of my resume. If he cant take the time out to
>> > read
>> > the first 3 lines of my resume how can I expect him to have clue about
>> > my
>> > MCAD study?
>> >
>> > When I got back home I received another call from a recruiter/developer
>> > who
>> > has 20 years of programming behind him and is currently working on XML
>> > WebServices. He told me that one day he decided to go take an MCAD exam
>> > and
>> > see how it was and he failed. He said "you wrote in your cover letter
>> > that
>> > your study was 6000+ pages of complex study.that's about right".
>> >
>>
>>
>>

Gorm Braarvig

"Sean" <> wrote
> The short story here is that I had an interview with a company who valued
> the
> skill assessments of "provit.com" more then "microsoft.com". That is not
> how
> they saw it but they didn't think it thru. Basically they said "that's
> nice
> you are certified but we want you to take our exam".

I've come across that as well doing software contracting. Some of the major
contract shops (at least here in NorCal) have for some time now required
taking an online exam before they'll really even talk to you (which,
overall, is a policy I quite like).

I've taken 10 or so BrainBench (C#, C# Express, VB, VB Express, .Net
Framework, etc) exams over the years, and there are definatly pros and cons
in their relationship to the Microsoft ones. At this point I try hard to
require canidates that I interview to take a quick online exam (at our
expense) a few days prior to the interview. This is more to gauge, "I'm
asking them to do something, do they do it?" (which seems to be a huge
indicator of many thing) than to see their actual technical skillset.

After taking a number of exams from both, they're targeting different
audiances. If Tek Systems told prospects they needed to take 4 hours of out
an otherwise billable day to head down to the local testing center for a 3
hour exam, I don't think they would get very far. On the other hand, a
number of the BrainBench tests can be completed in 20 minutes from just
about anywhere in the world. Definatly different target groups.

Now, any company who requires a C# BrainBench exam after verifying a
MCSD.NET transcript is going to have a tough sell....

--
Chris Mullins

Chris Mullins