Sanyo eneloop at Costco

On Thu, 30 Aug 2007 12:51:24 GMT, Thomas T. Veldhouse wrote:

>>> Which claims? Everything on the site came from a reliable source,
>>> either a battery manufacturer, charger manufacturer, semiconductor
>>> manufacturer, or acknowledged battery expert.
> . . .
>
> Funny how SMS simply goes silent with presented with an obvious
> answer and counter to his question and assertion.

I noticed that long ago, too. The source of one of the quotes on
his website is just a reply from this newsgroup from someone that
simply used more NiMH batteries and chargers than most of the others
in this newsgroup, but AFAIK was not a battery manufacturer, a
charger manufacturer, a semiconductor manufacturer or an
acknowledged battery expert. I'm sure that if you or I had shared
SMS's Li-Ion bias and often parroted his statements, we too might
have been quoted on his website and been lumped in with all of the
other "acknowledged battery experts". Acknowledged by SMS, that is.

ASAAR

Thomas T. Veldhouse wrote:
> sw2U <> wrote:
>> That's good news, because in my area, few places sell Eneloops, and
>> those few ONLY sell the batteries with a charger. I think I saw a
>> couple of packages of just batteries back around last Christmas,
>> but haven't seen any since. And the place that had those appears to
>> no longer sell Eneloops.
>>
>> I get the impression Sanyo is better at making batteries than at
>> marketing them.
>>
>
> Most retailers have been slow to understand the meaning of "low
> self-discharge", so I suspect they haven't jumped to put them on endcaps.
> To take this thought further, they are probably hesistant to carry multiple
> brands of NiMH batteries that are only 2000-2100mAh when they can sell those
> 2500-2700mAh batteries knowing they have "bigger" numbers. They are slowly
> learning however.
>
> BTW ... you can always buy Eneloops at a good price on Amazon.com. My last
> purchase was 8-AA Eneloops for $19.99. I bought a few Nexcell C and D
> adapters and have these batteries in clocks, digital thermometers, remotes,
> certain medical equipment, mouse and keyboard, etc. All these are
> applications where the traditional NiMH batteries would have failed due to
> self-discharge, but is no longer a problem with these new batteries. One
> healthy star for me and the environment.
>

Buying Eneloops is a problem. I got mine from Ritz and only paid $12 for
a set of 4.
I've seen them elsewhere at a higher price.
Walmart carry Hybrids by Rayovac, these are same technology licensed
from Sanyo. I have 4 Hybrid AAA's which I am using in an .mp3 player
(single cell) and just got an Olympus voice recorder which uses two. I
tend to charge the one in the .mp3 unit sufficiently frequently that I
might do better with a normal NiMH of higher capacity, but who cares.
Walmart are also carrying a low discharge pack of 4 AA's by Kodak which
look to be the same thing. I use a charger from Green Batteries which
does individual cells in 2 -3 hours.
I am still patiently waiting for the 4 Eneloops in my A95 to tell me
it's time for a charge. It will be a year come November since they were
last fed. I got 652 shots out of the package and am currently at 267
shots. Never got much over 150 shots in 4 months using normal NiMH.
Dave Cohen

Dave Cohen

ASAAR <> wrote:
> I'm sure that if you or I had shared
> SMS's Li-Ion bias and often parroted his statements, we too might
> have been quoted on his website and been lumped in with all of the
> other "acknowledged battery experts". Acknowledged by SMS, that is.
>

I could only hope for so much fame.

--
Thomas T. Veldhouse

We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the
machinations of the wicked.

Thomas T. Veldhouse

Dave Cohen <> wrote:
>
> Buying Eneloops is a problem. I got mine from Ritz and only paid $12 for
> a set of 4.

I don't have a problem and most urban residents won't either. May not be big
box discount retailers selling them [although I understand Walmart is now
selling them], but they are around. Circuit City is one. Ritz you mention as
well. They are easily available online as I have mentioned and I know for a
FACT that everybody reading here has access to the Internet

> I've seen them elsewhere at a higher price.
> Walmart carry Hybrids by Rayovac, these are same technology licensed
> from Sanyo.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. If it was the same technology licensed from
Sanyo, I would expect the same capacity ratings after one year, but they are
different. Further, if it were the same technology, I would expect that Sanyo
would be selling cells with the same capacity [or higher] than those they
license too. In short, I do not think they have licensed the technology for
use in Rayovac [built by Spectrum in China ... as are Hybrio], but rather a
similar technology developed in parallel.

>
> I have 4 Hybrid AAA's which I am using in an .mp3 player
> (single cell) and just got an Olympus voice recorder which uses two. I
> tend to charge the one in the .mp3 unit sufficiently frequently that I
> might do better with a normal NiMH of higher capacity, but who cares.
> Walmart are also carrying a low discharge pack of 4 AA's by Kodak which
> look to be the same thing. I use a charger from Green Batteries which
> does individual cells in 2 -3 hours.

I use Rayovac Hybrid batteries as well. I tend to use them in devices that
aren't going to sit quite as long and higher capacity may be useful [although
we are only talking about 100mAh]. I tend to use the Hybrids in my Nikon
SB-600 and the Eneloops in all my very low current applications like clocks,
thermometers, remotes, etc.

> I am still patiently waiting for the 4 Eneloops in my A95 to tell me
> it's time for a charge. It will be a year come November since they were
> last fed. I got 652 shots out of the package and am currently at 267
> shots. Never got much over 150 shots in 4 months using normal NiMH.

Yes, they are great batteries which easily can replace alkaline in most
situations [I still use alkaline in my weather radio ... although sometimes I
wish the damn thing would go dead in the middle of the night].

--
Thomas T. Veldhouse

We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the
machinations of the wicked.

Thomas T. Veldhouse

Thomas T. Veldhouse wrote:
> Thomas T. Veldhouse <> wrote:
>> SMS <> wrote:
>>> Which claims? Everything on the site came from a reliable source, either
>>> a battery manufacturer, charger manufacturer, semiconductor
>>> manufacturer, or acknowledged battery expert.
>> Really? Then provide your source for this:
>>
>> "On the other hand, Li-Ion battery packs have a number of technical advantages
>> over NiMH batteries, including a much lower self-discharge rate, greater
>> energy density (in terms of both weight and volume), far better
>> low-temperature performance, a greater maximum number of charge/discharge
>> cycles, and the ability for the camera to provide a fairly accurate indication
>> of remaining capacity. This is why virtually every new digital SLR, and
>> virtually every high end digital camera, uses Li-Ion battery packs. It's also
>> why notebook computers, PDAs, cell phones, MP3 players, etc., use Li-Ion
>> battery packs. After-market Li-Ion battery packs are available at very good
>> prices, in fact if you look at the big picture and compute the total cost
>> including accounting for the number of charge cycles, Li-Ion batteries are
>> often less expensive. Now even some high-end rechargeable bicycle lights and
>> flashlights are using Li-Ion batteries."
>>
>> ... "including a much lower self-discharge rate" ... is currently debatable
>> with the advent of low self discharge NiMH batteries such as Eneloops.
>>
>> ... "a greater maximum number of charge/discharge cycles" ....
>> ... "and the ability for the camera to provide a fairly accurate indication
>> of remaining capacity" .... and I don't think any expert wrote that in the
>> context that you are using it.
>>
>
> Funny how SMS simply goes silent with presented with an obvious answer and
> counter to his question and assertion.

Wow, give me a couple of days or so to answer!


Lower self-discharge rate
-------------------------
"http://www.hardingenergy.com/faq.htm"
"http://www.national.com/appinfo/power/files/f19.pdf"

and about a gazillion other similar references. And I specifically
mention eneloop as an exception. Of course you already knew this.


Greater energy density by weight and volume
-------------------------------------------
See calculations on the web site as well as
"http://www.national.com/appinfo/power/files/f19.pdf" as well as many
similar references.
Of course you already knew this.


Charge/Discharge Cycles
-----------------------
See the chart at
"http://www.buchmann.ca/Article4-Page1.asp" as well as many other
similar references. Of course you already knew this.


Low Temperature Performance
--------------------------
"http://www.national.com/appinfo/power/files/f19.pdf"
and about a gazillion others. Of course you already knew this.


Accurate Indication of Charge Level
-----------------------------------
The battery gauges measure voltage. As you can see on the site in my
graphs, as well as on
"http://www.national.com/appinfo/power/files/f19.pdf", the voltage range
for a NiMH is very narrow, and is almost flat for most of the discharge
cycle. The voltage range for the Li-Ion pack is wider, and declines
linearly.

It is true that the reason for the use of a low-battery indicator versus
a charge level gauge was an extrapolation I made based on the technical
characteristics and the design of currently available products.

It certainly would be possible, as I state on the web site, to design a
gauge that takes into account the non-linear discharge curve of NiMH,
the narrow voltage range of NiMH, and the fact that each type of AA
battery has different start and end voltages and a different voltage
curve between the two. The D200 may do this via the programming for
different battery types, or it may just change the voltage start and end
levels and not try to account for the very small differences in voltage
during the majority of the cycle.

The rest of the paragraph doesn't need references, as you can just look
at what cell phones, MP3 players, laptops, PDA's, etc., are using. The
prices of Li-Ion packs are available to anyone that knows how to use
Google (use the "Products" section, and don't buy from eBay or from
unrated sellers or sellers with poor ratings.

I certainly hope that you are not becoming another ASAAR, someone who
knows the facts but just likes to run around demanding references and
citations for thing that they already know to be true. Maybe I'm the
chump by spending the time to respond with references to statements that
you already know to be true.

Steve
"http://batterydata.com"

SMS

sw2U wrote:

> I get the impression Sanyo is better at making batteries than at
> marketing them.

It's tough to market by other than numbers. Camera makers sell
megapixels, battery makers sell mAH, CPU makers sell MHz and were only
forced into selling CPUs based partially on power consumption and
thermals by companies like Transmeta.

Costco tends to have astute purchasing people, as well as a higher
educated customer base, as well as not stocking 100 different choices
like Fry's. It's the perfect place for eneloops, plus Costco forces
their suppliers to provide good bundles.

SMS

Thomas T. Veldhouse wrote:

> I wouldn't be so sure about that. If it was the same technology licensed from
> Sanyo, I would expect the same capacity ratings after one year, but they are
> different. Further, if it were the same technology, I would expect that Sanyo
> would be selling cells with the same capacity [or higher] than those they
> license too. In short, I do not think they have licensed the technology for
> use in Rayovac [built by Spectrum in China ... as are Hybrio], but rather a
> similar technology developed in parallel.

The technology for lower self-discharge has been around for a long time,
but it reduces the available volume for the battery components that
increase the mAHs. NiMH batteries have been marketed based on mAHs
rather than self-discharge rate (which users probably don't understand
all that well). Logically you'd expect a mass migration to low
self-discharge NiMH batteries, but the typical person selecting
batteries at the store is going mainly by mAH and price, and maybe a
little on brand recognition.

SMS

Thomas T. Veldhouse wrote:
> ASAAR <> wrote:
>> I'm sure that if you or I had shared
>> SMS's Li-Ion bias and often parroted his statements, we too might
>> have been quoted on his website and been lumped in with all of the
>> other "acknowledged battery experts". Acknowledged by SMS, that is.
>>
>
> I could only hope for so much fame.

You can't just hope for it, you have to do something to achieve it.

When you have a web site where you enter only two or three keywords of
Google then click on "I'm Feeling Lucky" and have your site come up,
then you've achieved some measure of internet fame (as long as the
keywords aren't something like "mass murderer").

Try this on the Google home page:

"nimh versus li-ion" then click on "I'm Feeling Lucky"
"bicycle lighting" then click on "I'm Feeling Lucky"
"bicycle coffee" then click on "I'm Feeling Lucky"

Of course it often helps when you have someone on Usenet that provides
you with tons of incorrect material to correct! Never let it be said
that ASAAR doesn't serve a purpose!

Steve

SMS

SMS <> wrote:
> Thomas T. Veldhouse wrote:
>> ASAAR <> wrote:
>>> I'm sure that if you or I had shared
>>> SMS's Li-Ion bias and often parroted his statements, we too might
>>> have been quoted on his website and been lumped in with all of the
>>> other "acknowledged battery experts". Acknowledged by SMS, that is.
>>>
>>
>> I could only hope for so much fame.
>
> You can't just hope for it, you have to do something to achieve it.
>

Of course, you purposely dismissed my sarcasm.

--
Thomas T. Veldhouse

We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the
machinations of the wicked.

Thomas T. Veldhouse

SMS <> wrote:
>

Note that I snipped the topics that I wasn't questioning you on in the first
place.

> Charge/Discharge Cycles
> -----------------------
> See the chart at
> "http://www.buchmann.ca/Article4-Page1.asp" as well as many other
> similar references. Of course you already knew this.
>

This article does not really contrast charge/discharge cycles between LiIon
(or polymer) and NiMH. Further, it is VERY clear that LiIon batteries have a
short useful life [when healthy] of 1 year until decline and often complete
failure in two to three years. Contrast that to NiMH batteries which last
significantly longer and if used similarily you will get more real charge
cycles from NiMH than you will from LiIon unless you approach commmericial
usage levels.

> Accurate Indication of Charge Level
> -----------------------------------
> The battery gauges measure voltage. As you can see on the site in my
> graphs, as well as on
> "http://www.national.com/appinfo/power/files/f19.pdf", the voltage range
> for a NiMH is very narrow, and is almost flat for most of the discharge
> cycle. The voltage range for the Li-Ion pack is wider, and declines
> linearly.
>

There are several devices available now that DO give accurate capacity
indications of NiMH batteries. Your old PDF does nothing but illustrate the
flat discharge curve [which is a good thing as quoted in the article]. It has
been illustrated in this forum several times that a healthy battery is very
easy to show reliable capacity [without load based testing]. My Daughter's
very cheap Kodak Digital is smart enough to know it has NiMH batteries in it
[in fact, it was probably designed for them as it would be hard to supply
enough power with alkalines for any real timeframe]. It does an EXCELLENT job
at indicating remaining capacity. Testing it has shown a very close match to
my load based battery tester mentioned in another thread.

> The rest of the paragraph doesn't need references, as you can just look
> at what cell phones, MP3 players, laptops, PDA's, etc., are using. The
> prices of Li-Ion packs are available to anyone that knows how to use
> Google (use the "Products" section, and don't buy from eBay or from
> unrated sellers or sellers with poor ratings.

We know the reason they use LiIon batteries for these things. They are light.
The drawback is that to fit in small packages, they are proprietary and they
fail over time, no matter the usage. Further, kids are often completely
draining thier "iPod" batteries, which is HORRIBLE for LiIon batteries. In
short, you pay a LOT more for batteries over the life a typical device like an
MP3 player because of typical usage and short life of LiIon. Same goes for
cellphones [and kids]. My daughter's battery for her Motorola 325 lasted only
about 9 months before I had to replace it because it wouldn't last a day.

>
> I certainly hope that you are not becoming another ASAAR, someone who
> knows the facts but just likes to run around demanding references and
> citations for thing that they already know to be true. Maybe I'm the
> chump by spending the time to respond with references to statements that
> you already know to be true.
>

ASAAR is correct that you display a very big bias towards NiMH batteries as if
their is something wrong with them. Rather, you seem to indicate that LiIon
is prefferrable as a generalized statement, which is simply not true. You
can't make such generalized statements. You often throw up pros/cons for NiMH
-vs- LiIon that has outdated information or is simply incorrect [in practical
use]. In particular, you have made claims that, and I paraphrase, "LiIon is
better because changing the AA batteries on a camera will cause the door to
fail rather than charge the batteries in camera". THIS IS NOT A PROBLEM OR
BENEFIT OF EITHER TECHNOLOGY, but you used it anyway. Older cellphones that
used NiMH [proprietary] batteries are a prime example.

In short, quit making conclusions, as they are biased. Present accurate facts
[and complete] and you will be fine.

--
Thomas T. Veldhouse

We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the
machinations of the wicked.

Thomas T. Veldhouse