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Analog CD copies?

 
 
Spuds
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      08-18-2007
Picked up the September issue of Consumers Reports the other day. Ran
across this statement by CR staff:

"When you burn a copy of a digital CD, the copy is analog, not digital. And
copies might not be as high quality as originals, although the average ear
won't be able to hear the difference."

Am I missing something here? How can a digital operation like copying a
CD be deemed analog? And why would a copy not be as high a quality as the
original? Are these guys out to lunch?
 
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=?ISO-8859-1?Q?R=F4g=EAr?=
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      08-18-2007
Spuds wrote:
> Picked up the September issue of Consumers Reports the other day. Ran
> across this statement by CR staff:
>
> "When you burn a copy of a digital CD, the copy is analog, not digital. And
> copies might not be as high quality as originals, although the average ear
> won't be able to hear the difference."
>
> Am I missing something here? How can a digital operation like copying a
> CD be deemed analog? And why would a copy not be as high a quality as the
> original? Are these guys out to lunch?


On Consumer Report's computer, the laser burns grooves into the disk
that have little ridges and valleys that correspond the sound wave. They
can only be played back on 78 RPM turntables, or in the case of
cylinders, on a hand crank Victrola.
 
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Meat Plow
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Posts: n/a
 
      08-18-2007
On Sat, 18 Aug 2007 15:24:57 -0400, Spuds wrote:

> Picked up the September issue of Consumers Reports the other day. Ran
> across this statement by CR staff:
>
> "When you burn a copy of a digital CD, the copy is analog, not digital. And
> copies might not be as high quality as originals, although the average ear
> won't be able to hear the difference."
>
> Am I missing something here? How can a digital operation like copying a
> CD be deemed analog? And why would a copy not be as high a quality as the
> original? Are these guys out to lunch?


Doesn't make sense does it?


 
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ded
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      08-18-2007

"Spuds" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> Picked up the September issue of Consumers Reports the other day. Ran
> across this statement by CR staff:
>
> "When you burn a copy of a digital CD, the copy is analog, not digital.
> And
> copies might not be as high quality as originals, although the average ear
> won't be able to hear the difference."
>
> Am I missing something here? How can a digital operation like copying a
> CD be deemed analog? And why would a copy not be as high a quality as the
> original? Are these guys out to lunch?


I haven't seen the report, but as posted they are totally inaccurate.
Our burners and software can make bit-for-bit exact digital copies,
unless....
The report might have meant with copy protected disks?
We all know of DVD's protection, and that can be defeated by software such
as DVD Shrink etc.
With CD's Sony once tried a copy protection technique with their "rootkit",
(Google: "Sony, CD, Rootkit" for the full story) It caused many problems and
Philips the co-founder with Sony of the 16 bit CD format, insisted such
"rootkit"
protected CD's could not be termed CD's as they didn't meet the criteria.
Sony abandoned "rootkit".
There is a new DRM based CD copy protection, I know the latest Dido CD is
DRM protected, basically with this new technique they cannot be "digitally
ripped" (Until someone inevitably produces a crack).
All drives will have an audio output which we connect to our soundcards
The feed to soundcard is Digitally-to-analog converted.
In burning software such as Nero, Roxio etc, in the "create audio CD's"
wizard there is a drop down option to create disk from "Analog" source
which will be via soundcard and the drives audio output, Not IDE.
The Consumer report (Got a link?) may have been talking about methods
of recording copy protected disks such as those still in existence with
Sony's
now abandoned "rootkit" or the fledgling DRM technique.




 
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=?ISO-8859-1?Q?R=F4g=EAr?=
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      08-18-2007
ded wrote:
> "Spuds" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>> Picked up the September issue of Consumers Reports the other day. Ran
>> across this statement by CR staff:
>>
>> "When you burn a copy of a digital CD, the copy is analog, not digital.
>> And
>> copies might not be as high quality as originals, although the average ear
>> won't be able to hear the difference."
>>
>> Am I missing something here? How can a digital operation like copying a
>> CD be deemed analog? And why would a copy not be as high a quality as the
>> original? Are these guys out to lunch?

>
> I haven't seen the report, but as posted they are totally inaccurate.
> Our burners and software can make bit-for-bit exact digital copies,
> unless....
> The report might have meant with copy protected disks?
> We all know of DVD's protection, and that can be defeated by software such
> as DVD Shrink etc.
> With CD's Sony once tried a copy protection technique with their "rootkit",
> (Google: "Sony, CD, Rootkit" for the full story) It caused many problems and
> Philips the co-founder with Sony of the 16 bit CD format, insisted such
> "rootkit"
> protected CD's could not be termed CD's as they didn't meet the criteria.
> Sony abandoned "rootkit".
> There is a new DRM based CD copy protection, I know the latest Dido CD is
> DRM protected, basically with this new technique they cannot be "digitally
> ripped" (Until someone inevitably produces a crack).
> All drives will have an audio output which we connect to our soundcards
> The feed to soundcard is Digitally-to-analog converted.
> In burning software such as Nero, Roxio etc, in the "create audio CD's"
> wizard there is a drop down option to create disk from "Analog" source
> which will be via soundcard and the drives audio output, Not IDE.
> The Consumer report (Got a link?) may have been talking about methods
> of recording copy protected disks such as those still in existence with
> Sony's
> now abandoned "rootkit" or the fledgling DRM technique.


Ain't no way to make an analog CD, rootkit or not. See my previous reply
for some sarcastic comment.
 
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ded
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      08-18-2007

"Rgr" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed) om...
> ded wrote:
>> "Spuds" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>>> Picked up the September issue of Consumers Reports the other day. Ran
>>> across this statement by CR staff:
>>>
>>> "When you burn a copy of a digital CD, the copy is analog, not digital.
>>> And
>>> copies might not be as high quality as originals, although the average
>>> ear
>>> won't be able to hear the difference."
>>>
>>> Am I missing something here? How can a digital operation like copying a
>>> CD be deemed analog? And why would a copy not be as high a quality as
>>> the
>>> original? Are these guys out to lunch?

>>
>> I haven't seen the report, but as posted they are totally inaccurate.
>> Our burners and software can make bit-for-bit exact digital copies,
>> unless....
>> The report might have meant with copy protected disks?
>> We all know of DVD's protection, and that can be defeated by software
>> such
>> as DVD Shrink etc.
>> With CD's Sony once tried a copy protection technique with their
>> "rootkit",
>> (Google: "Sony, CD, Rootkit" for the full story) It caused many problems
>> and
>> Philips the co-founder with Sony of the 16 bit CD format, insisted such
>> "rootkit"
>> protected CD's could not be termed CD's as they didn't meet the criteria.
>> Sony abandoned "rootkit".
>> There is a new DRM based CD copy protection, I know the latest Dido CD is
>> DRM protected, basically with this new technique they cannot be
>> "digitally
>> ripped" (Until someone inevitably produces a crack).
>> All drives will have an audio output which we connect to our soundcards
>> The feed to soundcard is Digitally-to-analog converted.
>> In burning software such as Nero, Roxio etc, in the "create audio CD's"
>> wizard there is a drop down option to create disk from "Analog" source
>> which will be via soundcard and the drives audio output, Not IDE.
>> The Consumer report (Got a link?) may have been talking about methods
>> of recording copy protected disks such as those still in existence with
>> Sony's
>> now abandoned "rootkit" or the fledgling DRM technique.

>
> Ain't no way to make an analog CD, rootkit or not. See my previous reply
> for some sarcastic comment.


I didn't say make an "analog CD", the issue is ripping digital-to-digital
and
if copy protected, the method to get around it is digital-to-analog(via
soundcard
and PCI)-to-digital. there is options in burning software, that allow to
take an
analog feed via soundcard and rip/convert back to a digital signal to CD
http://www.nero.com/nero6/eng/Tutorial_Audio.html
The copy protection such as rootkit and the newer DRM only protect the
digital
data, if converted to analog via soundcard the copy protection is defeated,
that analog signal is converted back to digital during burning and is free
of
any copy protection. But of course going through that double conversion
process it ain't a direct digital-to-digital rip. It is
digital-analog-digital rip.


 
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Vanguard
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      08-18-2007
"Spuds" wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> Picked up the September issue of Consumers Reports the other day.
> Ran
> across this statement by CR staff:
>
> "When you burn a copy of a digital CD, the copy is analog, not
> digital. And
> copies might not be as high quality as originals, although the
> average ear
> won't be able to hear the difference."
>
> Am I missing something here? How can a digital operation like
> copying a
> CD be deemed analog? And why would a copy not be as high a quality
> as the
> original? Are these guys out to lunch?



Oh yeah, like we're supposed to believe a quote taken out of context.
Either provide the URL (if non-customers can see the article) or
provide the context of the article (copying it might violate
copyright). They may have used an analogy to "analog" that they then
used in the single sentence you supposedly quoted. Or the author
doesn't have a clue how CDs are manufactured or how they are burned by
end-user equipment. Impossible to tell from a single statement taken
out of context.

CD-ROMs are pressed or stamped much the same way as were vinyl
records. Pits are pressed into a substrate that is then fused to the
transparent plastic disc. The physical pit records the digital one
and the lack of a pit is a digital zero.

CD-R and CD-RW media do not use pits. Instead they rely on heating up
the substrate with the laser in high-power mode to create a bubble
(phase change) or dye variance that has a different reflectance and
which emulates a pit. That is why CD-R[W] media is more prone to loss
data due to heat, like leaving them in your hot car. Pits in CD-ROMs
don't melt away. Heat will weaken the phase change material or the
change in the dye used by CD-R[W] media to reduce the differential in
reflectance so it is harder to detect the emulated pit.

http://snipurl.com/1ohwz
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CD-ROM#Manufacture

 
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Old Codger
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Posts: n/a
 
      08-18-2007
ded wrote:
> "Rgr" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:(E-Mail Removed) om...
>> ded wrote:
>>> "Spuds" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>>> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>>>> Picked up the September issue of Consumers Reports the other day. Ran
>>>> across this statement by CR staff:
>>>>
>>>> "When you burn a copy of a digital CD, the copy is analog, not digital.
>>>> And
>>>> copies might not be as high quality as originals, although the average
>>>> ear
>>>> won't be able to hear the difference."
>>>>
>>>> Am I missing something here? How can a digital operation like copying a
>>>> CD be deemed analog? And why would a copy not be as high a quality as
>>>> the
>>>> original? Are these guys out to lunch?
>>> I haven't seen the report, but as posted they are totally inaccurate.
>>> Our burners and software can make bit-for-bit exact digital copies,
>>> unless....
>>> The report might have meant with copy protected disks?
>>> We all know of DVD's protection, and that can be defeated by software
>>> such
>>> as DVD Shrink etc.
>>> With CD's Sony once tried a copy protection technique with their
>>> "rootkit",
>>> (Google: "Sony, CD, Rootkit" for the full story) It caused many problems
>>> and
>>> Philips the co-founder with Sony of the 16 bit CD format, insisted such
>>> "rootkit"
>>> protected CD's could not be termed CD's as they didn't meet the criteria.
>>> Sony abandoned "rootkit".
>>> There is a new DRM based CD copy protection, I know the latest Dido CD is
>>> DRM protected, basically with this new technique they cannot be
>>> "digitally
>>> ripped" (Until someone inevitably produces a crack).
>>> All drives will have an audio output which we connect to our soundcards
>>> The feed to soundcard is Digitally-to-analog converted.
>>> In burning software such as Nero, Roxio etc, in the "create audio CD's"
>>> wizard there is a drop down option to create disk from "Analog" source
>>> which will be via soundcard and the drives audio output, Not IDE.
>>> The Consumer report (Got a link?) may have been talking about methods
>>> of recording copy protected disks such as those still in existence with
>>> Sony's
>>> now abandoned "rootkit" or the fledgling DRM technique.

>> Ain't no way to make an analog CD, rootkit or not. See my previous reply
>> for some sarcastic comment.

>
> I didn't say make an "analog CD", the issue is ripping digital-to-digital
> and
> if copy protected, the method to get around it is digital-to-analog(via
> soundcard
> and PCI)-to-digital. there is options in burning software, that allow to
> take an
> analog feed via soundcard and rip/convert back to a digital signal to CD
> http://www.nero.com/nero6/eng/Tutorial_Audio.html
> The copy protection such as rootkit and the newer DRM only protect the
> digital
> data, if converted to analog via soundcard the copy protection is defeated,
> that analog signal is converted back to digital during burning and is free
> of
> any copy protection. But of course going through that double conversion
> process it ain't a direct digital-to-digital rip. It is
> digital-analog-digital rip.


Indeed, and copying by that method will result in some quality degradation.


--
Old Codger
e-mail use reply to field

What matters in politics is not what happens, but what you can make
people believe has happened. [Janet Daley 27/8/2003]
 
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Spuds
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      08-18-2007
On Sat, 18 Aug 2007 15:33:18 -0400, Rgr <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>Spuds wrote:
>> Picked up the September issue of Consumers Reports the other day. Ran
>> across this statement by CR staff:
>>
>> "When you burn a copy of a digital CD, the copy is analog, not digital. And
>> copies might not be as high quality as originals, although the average ear
>> won't be able to hear the difference."
>>
>> Am I missing something here? How can a digital operation like copying a
>> CD be deemed analog? And why would a copy not be as high a quality as the
>> original? Are these guys out to lunch?

>
>On Consumer Report's computer, the laser burns grooves into the disk
>that have little ridges and valleys that correspond the sound wave. They
>can only be played back on 78 RPM turntables, or in the case of
>cylinders, on a hand crank Victrola.


That would account for the big horn coming off the side of the burner.
 
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ded
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      08-18-2007

"Old Codger" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:46c761b3$0$13927$(E-Mail Removed)...
> ded wrote:
>> "Rgr" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>> news:(E-Mail Removed) om...
>>> ded wrote:
>>>> "Spuds" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>>>> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>>>>> Picked up the September issue of Consumers Reports the other day. Ran
>>>>> across this statement by CR staff:
>>>>>
>>>>> "When you burn a copy of a digital CD, the copy is analog, not
>>>>> digital. And
>>>>> copies might not be as high quality as originals, although the average
>>>>> ear
>>>>> won't be able to hear the difference."
>>>>>
>>>>> Am I missing something here? How can a digital operation like copying
>>>>> a
>>>>> CD be deemed analog? And why would a copy not be as high a quality as
>>>>> the
>>>>> original? Are these guys out to lunch?
>>>> I haven't seen the report, but as posted they are totally inaccurate.
>>>> Our burners and software can make bit-for-bit exact digital copies,
>>>> unless....
>>>> The report might have meant with copy protected disks?
>>>> We all know of DVD's protection, and that can be defeated by software
>>>> such
>>>> as DVD Shrink etc.
>>>> With CD's Sony once tried a copy protection technique with their
>>>> "rootkit",
>>>> (Google: "Sony, CD, Rootkit" for the full story) It caused many
>>>> problems and
>>>> Philips the co-founder with Sony of the 16 bit CD format, insisted such
>>>> "rootkit"
>>>> protected CD's could not be termed CD's as they didn't meet the
>>>> criteria.
>>>> Sony abandoned "rootkit".
>>>> There is a new DRM based CD copy protection, I know the latest Dido CD
>>>> is
>>>> DRM protected, basically with this new technique they cannot be
>>>> "digitally
>>>> ripped" (Until someone inevitably produces a crack).
>>>> All drives will have an audio output which we connect to our soundcards
>>>> The feed to soundcard is Digitally-to-analog converted.
>>>> In burning software such as Nero, Roxio etc, in the "create audio CD's"
>>>> wizard there is a drop down option to create disk from "Analog" source
>>>> which will be via soundcard and the drives audio output, Not IDE.
>>>> The Consumer report (Got a link?) may have been talking about methods
>>>> of recording copy protected disks such as those still in existence with
>>>> Sony's
>>>> now abandoned "rootkit" or the fledgling DRM technique.
>>> Ain't no way to make an analog CD, rootkit or not. See my previous reply
>>> for some sarcastic comment.

>>
>> I didn't say make an "analog CD", the issue is ripping digital-to-digital
>> and
>> if copy protected, the method to get around it is digital-to-analog(via
>> soundcard
>> and PCI)-to-digital. there is options in burning software, that allow to
>> take an
>> analog feed via soundcard and rip/convert back to a digital signal to CD
>> http://www.nero.com/nero6/eng/Tutorial_Audio.html
>> The copy protection such as rootkit and the newer DRM only protect the
>> digital
>> data, if converted to analog via soundcard the copy protection is
>> defeated,
>> that analog signal is converted back to digital during burning and is
>> free of
>> any copy protection. But of course going through that double conversion
>> process it ain't a direct digital-to-digital rip. It is
>> digital-analog-digital rip.

>
> Indeed, and copying by that method will result in some quality
> degradation.
>
>

Indeed, there is no denying that compared to a direct digital-to-digital rip
there will be noticeable degradation and the type of process of converting
to an analog feed for the purpose of defeating any DRM, then converting
back to digital for burning is at the mercy of the quality of the soundcards
conversion etc. But the issue is the supposed consumer report and what
exactly was the context and point they were making? I was just giving
one example of when ripping from an analog feed might be the only
option with copy protected CD's.

> --
> Old Codger
> e-mail use reply to field
>
> What matters in politics is not what happens, but what you can make people
> believe has happened. [Janet Daley 27/8/2003]



 
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