«

On Jun 27, 4:41 pm, "b...@motivateddesign.co.uk"
<b...@motivateddesign.co.uk> wrote:
> On Jun 27, 2:04 am, Jim Moe <jmm-list.AXSPA...@sohnen-moe.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > b...@motivateddesign.co.uk wrote:
>
> > > putting myself out on a limb.
> > > i am just starting life as a freelance web designer, and would value
> > > any (nice) feedback on my site
> > >www.motivateddesign.co.uk
>
> > Your graphics design and color scheme is quite nice, appealing. (That
> > was nice.)
>
> > Your page markup is not so good.
> > - Use of XHTML, and why Transitional?
> > Are you generating the Web pages from an XML source with XSLT? And is
> > that same XML source generating print output or PDF? If not, there is no
> > reason to use XHTML. Use HTML Strict instead.
> > - The body text size is 12 px, 75% of my preferred size, and too damn
> > small to read.
> > - Fixed width design.
> > - The layout degrades to unreadability in places when to font size is
> > increased even by 120%. Particularly noticeable on the Services page.
> > - Div-itis: Replacing standard markup elements with CSS-defined classes
> > that do the same thing. E.g.: .h1, .h2., .h3. There is a net loss of
> > information since HTML, the HyperText MARKUP Language, is not being used
> > to mark up much.
> > - Replacing block elements (h1, h2, p) with a <span>, in inline element.
> > What's with that?
> > - The W3C logos mean nothing to most people, and is simply expected by
> > those who do know what they represent.
>
> > --
> > jmm (hyphen) list (at) sohnen-moe (dot) com
> > (Remove .AXSPAMGN for email)
>
> Thanks everyone for your advice,
>
> I have spent the last 5 years teaching computer science in school, and
> have had enough.
> Then had a bright idea, you used to be a web designer, may be I should
> do that again.
> But that was in the days of the good old table and I am learning CSS
> stuff as a go along.
> Teaching does not (in my experience) allow time to learn interesting
> new stuff.
>
> I will try to make all of the recommended changes and if I feel brave
> post the site again for another going over.
>
> Regards and thanks again
>
> Barry.
You should also read, http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/full-checklist.html
web accessibility is now law in the UK as well as other countries.
--
Regards Chad. http://freewebdesign.awardspace.biz

On Jun 27, 5:20 pm, Chaddy2222 <spamlovermailbox-
sicur...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> On Jun 27, 4:41 pm, "b...@motivateddesign.co.uk"
>
>
>
> <b...@motivateddesign.co.uk> wrote:
> > On Jun 27, 2:04 am, Jim Moe <jmm-list.AXSPA...@sohnen-moe.com> wrote:
>
> > > b...@motivateddesign.co.uk wrote:
>
> > > > putting myself out on a limb.
> > > > i am just starting life as a freelance web designer, and would value
> > > > any (nice) feedback on my site
> > > >www.motivateddesign.co.uk
>
> > > Your graphics design and color scheme is quite nice, appealing. (That
> > > was nice.)
>
> > > Your page markup is not so good.
> > > - Use of XHTML, and why Transitional?
> > > Are you generating the Web pages from an XML source with XSLT? And is
> > > that same XML source generating print output or PDF? If not, there is no
> > > reason to use XHTML. Use HTML Strict instead.
> > > - The body text size is 12 px, 75% of my preferred size, and too damn
> > > small to read.
> > > - Fixed width design.
> > > - The layout degrades to unreadability in places when to font size is
> > > increased even by 120%. Particularly noticeable on the Services page.
> > > - Div-itis: Replacing standard markup elements with CSS-defined classes
> > > that do the same thing. E.g.: .h1, .h2., .h3. There is a net loss of
> > > information since HTML, the HyperText MARKUP Language, is not being used
> > > to mark up much.
> > > - Replacing block elements (h1, h2, p) with a <span>, in inline element.
> > > What's with that?
> > > - The W3C logos mean nothing to most people, and is simply expected by
> > > those who do know what they represent.
>
> > > --
> > > jmm (hyphen) list (at) sohnen-moe (dot) com
> > > (Remove .AXSPAMGN for email)
>
> > Thanks everyone for your advice,
>
> > I have spent the last 5 years teaching computer science in school, and
> > have had enough.
> > Then had a bright idea, you used to be a web designer, may be I should
> > do that again.
> > But that was in the days of the good old table and I am learning CSS
> > stuff as a go along.
> > Teaching does not (in my experience) allow time to learn interesting
> > new stuff.
>
> > I will try to make all of the recommended changes and if I feel brave
> > post the site again for another going over.
>
> > Regards and thanks again
>
> > Barry.
>
> You should also read,http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/full-checklist.html
> web accessibility is now law in the UK as well as other countries.
>
Ahh, why I made this a new thread and posted it to these other groups
i'm not quite sure but I will / have changed the subject line to make
it read better.
--
Regards Chad. http://freewebdesign.awardspace.biz

On Jun 27, 8:30 am, Chaddy2222 <spamlovermailbox-
sicur...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> On Jun 27, 5:20 pm, Chaddy2222 <spamlovermailbox-
>
> sicur...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> > On Jun 27, 4:41 pm, "b...@motivateddesign.co.uk"
>
> > <b...@motivateddesign.co.uk> wrote:
> > > On Jun 27, 2:04 am, Jim Moe <jmm-list.AXSPA...@sohnen-moe.com> wrote:
>
> > > > b...@motivateddesign.co.uk wrote:
>
> > > > > putting myself out on a limb.
> > > > > i am just starting life as a freelance web designer, and would value
> > > > > any (nice) feedback on my site
> > > > >www.motivateddesign.co.uk
>
> > > > Your graphics design and color scheme is quite nice, appealing. (That
> > > > was nice.)
>
> > > > Your page markup is not so good.
> > > > - Use of XHTML, and why Transitional?
> > > > Are you generating the Web pages from an XML source with XSLT? And is
> > > > that same XML source generating print output or PDF? If not, there is no
> > > > reason to use XHTML. Use HTML Strict instead.
> > > > - The body text size is 12 px, 75% of my preferred size, and too damn
> > > > small to read.
> > > > - Fixed width design.
> > > > - The layout degrades to unreadability in places when to font size is
> > > > increased even by 120%. Particularly noticeable on the Services page.
> > > > - Div-itis: Replacing standard markup elements with CSS-defined classes
> > > > that do the same thing. E.g.: .h1, .h2., .h3. There is a net loss of
> > > > information since HTML, the HyperText MARKUP Language, is not being used
> > > > to mark up much.
> > > > - Replacing block elements (h1, h2, p) with a <span>, in inline element.
> > > > What's with that?
> > > > - The W3C logos mean nothing to most people, and is simply expected by
> > > > those who do know what they represent.
>
> > > > --
> > > > jmm (hyphen) list (at) sohnen-moe (dot) com
> > > > (Remove .AXSPAMGN for email)
>
> > > Thanks everyone for your advice,
>
> > > I have spent the last 5 years teaching computer science in school, and
> > > have had enough.
> > > Then had a bright idea, you used to be a web designer, may be I should
> > > do that again.
> > > But that was in the days of the good old table and I am learning CSS
> > > stuff as a go along.
> > > Teaching does not (in my experience) allow time to learn interesting
> > > new stuff.
>
> > > I will try to make all of the recommended changes and if I feel brave
> > > post the site again for another going over.
>
> > > Regards and thanks again
>
> > > Barry.
>
> > You should also read,http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/full-checklist.html
> > web accessibility is now law in the UK as well as other countries.
>
> Ahh, why I made this a new thread and posted it to these other groups
> i'm not quite sure but I will / have changed the subject line to make
> it read better.
> --
> Regards Chad.http://freewebdesign.awardspace.biz

Thank Chad,

I have looked at the document and think I understand most of it.
Are there any good books on this subject?

Thanks

Barry

On Jun 27, 5:39 pm, "b...@motivateddesign.co.uk"
<b...@motivateddesign.co.uk> wrote:
> On Jun 27, 8:30 am, Chaddy2222 <spamlovermailbox-
>
>
>
> sicur...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> > On Jun 27, 5:20 pm, Chaddy2222 <spamlovermailbox-
>
> > sicur...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> > > On Jun 27, 4:41 pm, "b...@motivateddesign.co.uk"
>
> > > <b...@motivateddesign.co.uk> wrote:
> > > > On Jun 27, 2:04 am, Jim Moe <jmm-list.AXSPA...@sohnen-moe.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > b...@motivateddesign.co.uk wrote:
>
> > > > > > putting myself out on a limb.
> > > > > > i am just starting life as a freelance web designer, and would value
> > > > > > any (nice) feedback on my site
> > > > > >www.motivateddesign.co.uk
>
> > > > > Your graphics design and color scheme is quite nice, appealing. (That
> > > > > was nice.)
>
> > > > > Your page markup is not so good.
> > > > > - Use of XHTML, and why Transitional?
> > > > > Are you generating the Web pages from an XML source with XSLT? And is
> > > > > that same XML source generating print output or PDF? If not, there is no
> > > > > reason to use XHTML. Use HTML Strict instead.
> > > > > - The body text size is 12 px, 75% of my preferred size, and too damn
> > > > > small to read.
> > > > > - Fixed width design.
> > > > > - The layout degrades to unreadability in places when to font size is
> > > > > increased even by 120%. Particularly noticeable on the Services page.
> > > > > - Div-itis: Replacing standard markup elements with CSS-defined classes
> > > > > that do the same thing. E.g.: .h1, .h2., .h3. There is a net loss of
> > > > > information since HTML, the HyperText MARKUP Language, is not being used
> > > > > to mark up much.
> > > > > - Replacing block elements (h1, h2, p) with a <span>, in inline element.
> > > > > What's with that?
> > > > > - The W3C logos mean nothing to most people, and is simply expected by
> > > > > those who do know what they represent.
>
> > > > > --
> > > > > jmm (hyphen) list (at) sohnen-moe (dot) com
> > > > > (Remove .AXSPAMGN for email)
>
> > > > Thanks everyone for your advice,
>
> > > > I have spent the last 5 years teaching computer science in school, and
> > > > have had enough.
> > > > Then had a bright idea, you used to be a web designer, may be I should
> > > > do that again.
> > > > But that was in the days of the good old table and I am learning CSS
> > > > stuff as a go along.
> > > > Teaching does not (in my experience) allow time to learn interesting
> > > > new stuff.
>
> > > > I will try to make all of the recommended changes and if I feel brave
> > > > post the site again for another going over.
>
> > > > Regards and thanks again
>
> > > > Barry.
>
> > > You should also read,http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/full-checklist.html
> > > web accessibility is now law in the UK as well as other countries.
>
> > Ahh, why I made this a new thread and posted it to these other groups
> > i'm not quite sure but I will / have changed the subject line to make
> > it read better.
> > --
> > Regards Chad.http://freewebdesign.awardspace.biz
>
> Thank Chad,
>
> I have looked at the document and think I understand most of it.
> Are there any good books on this subject?
>
> Thanks
>
> Barry
Hi Bary, the full WCAG document can be found here http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/
and if you want a good general book on web design, then check out
http://www.webpagesthatsuck.com
I hope that helps.
--
Regards Chad. http://freewebdesign.awardspace.biz

On 27 Jun, 08:20, Chaddy2222 <spamlovermailbox-sicur...@yahoo.com.au>
wrote:

> You should also read,http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/full-checklist.html
> web accessibility is now law in the UK as well as other countries.

It's a good idea to study accessibility, but the W3C are not a good
resource for it. You'd be much better off with Joe Clark's book (free
online)

On Jun 27, 11:00 am, Andy Dingley <ding...@codesmiths.com> wrote:
> On 27 Jun, 08:20, Chaddy2222 <spamlovermailbox-sicur...@yahoo.com.au>
> wrote:
>
> > You should also read,http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/full-checklist.html
> > web accessibility is now law in the UK as well as other countries.
>
> It's a good idea to study accessibility, but the W3C are not a good
> resource for it. You'd be much better off with Joe Clark's book (free
> online)

Thanks for that,

I had a look at Joe Clark's book - The information looks good, but I
have trouble reading it because of the serif font used on screen.
I may just buy it.

Regards

Barry

On Jun 27, 8:00 pm, Andy Dingley <ding...@codesmiths.com> wrote:
> On 27 Jun, 08:20, Chaddy2222 <spamlovermailbox-sicur...@yahoo.com.au>
> wrote:
>
> > You should also read,http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/full-checklist.html
> > web accessibility is now law in the UK as well as other countries.
>
> It's a good idea to study accessibility, but the W3C are not a good
> resource for it. You'd be much better off with Joe Clark's book (free
> online)
Thanks for that suggestion Andy. I must say after Googleing Joe Clark,
I came across his article on WCAG 2.0 and found it interesting. After
reading parts of the final draft I actually did not think it was that
bad but after reading what J C said / wrote on the topic I is not
convinced that the new guidelines will be any good. Actually I thought
the 1.0 guidelines were bad enough about not being understand, but
these new ones will just not help anyone (from what I have read). How
the hell would a law enforcement agency decide on what all those long
worded statements on multimedia meant, (especially with cases
concerning where some thing are allowed or not).
In fact it could be said that these new guidelines are a step
backwards as they do not recommend the separation of presentation and
content.


--
Regards Chad. http://freewebdesign.awardspace.biz

On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 00:30:04 -0700, Chaddy2222
<spamlovermailbox-> wrote:

>> You should also read,http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/full-checklist.html
>> web accessibility is now law in the UK as well as other countries.

I've just noticed that the WCAG Samurai (which includes Joe Clark) have
recently published their errata to the WCAG guidelines
http://wcagsamurai.org/

This is an introduction to the errata (corrections) for the Web Content
Accessibility Guidelines 1.0 (WCAG 1). The errata are published by, and
can be attributed to, the WCAG Samurai, an independent group of
developers convened in 2006. We delivered these errata on 2007.06.07.

I just love this document, particularly the no-nonsense tone of the
intro
http://wcagsamurai.org/errata/intro.html

Andy Dingley wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 00:30:04 -0700, Chaddy2222
> <spamlovermailbox-> wrote:
>
> >> You should also read,http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/full-checklist.html
> >> web accessibility is now law in the UK as well as other countries.
>
> I've just noticed that the WCAG Samurai (which includes Joe Clark) have
> recently published their errata to the WCAG guidelines
> http://wcagsamurai.org/
>
> This is an introduction to the errata (corrections) for the Web Content
> Accessibility Guidelines 1.0 (WCAG 1). The errata are published by, and
> can be attributed to, the WCAG Samurai, an independent group of
> developers convened in 2006. We delivered these errata on 2007.06.07.
>
> I just love this document, particularly the no-nonsense tone of the
> intro
> http://wcagsamurai.org/errata/intro.html
Hmmm, yes I had a read of that. It sounds good although one thing I am
not sure of is how exactly they want developers to make javascript and
such content accessible without placeing items in a <noscript> tag, as
screen reading software still does not do JS very well. Unless it
could be done through some kind of server side method?.
--
Regards Chad. http://freewebdesign.awardspace.biz

On 28 Jun, 08:38, Chaddy2222 <spamlovermailbox-sicur...@yahoo.com.au>
wrote:

> Hmmm, yes I had a read of that. It sounds good although one thing I am
> not sure of is how exactly they want developers to make javascript and
> such content accessible without placeing items in a <noscript> tag,

<noscript> never really worked, was never really appropriate, and was
almost never used correctly.

The basic rule for JavaScript on Web 1.0 pages is that it should never
be necessary. use it for rollovers, decoration, gimmickery etc. but
lay off using it for the core function. In these cases, you don't need
to dupe it into <noscript> at all.

There are very few cases where JavaScript can be replaced by
<noscript>. If you're using client-side JavaScript to generate
content, then it's usually simply better to do this server-side
anyway. You might (in WCAG world) have to do just this to populate the
<noscript> that you'd be better off avoiding the need for altogether.

Web 2.0 is different. If you're AJAXing your content into place with
asynch loads, then there's just no way to replace that with any sort
of static notice in a <noscript>. The fix here is to fall back to a
Web 1.0 implementation instead, with lots of <form>s, page submissions
and round-tripping the whole page back to the server. This gets
really messy to try and cover both patterns on a single page, so
you're often better doing it as two separates.

There's never a need to make any _page_ accessible -- it's always an
alternative to offer an accessible page _in_addition_. Although good
CSS techniques make this costly process unneccessary for general
design work, it can be a reasonable approach when you're doing AJAX
and similar work.

If you're going this deeply into things, you really need to be using
an MVC pattern too. You'll maybe build it without, but you wouldn't
want to maintain it afterwards.