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Battery woes

 
 
SMS
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      06-12-2007
Daytona wrote:
> My 4 cheap nicad battaries have failed after only about 10 cycles, at
> least, the power output on 1 is well down and the net result is that I
> can only manage 2 pictures. Since I don't use my camera that often,
> which is the best type of battery to use ?
>
> I've got a cheap 2 hour fast charger and I'm wondering whether that
> could be part of the problem, as before I used to have a trickle
> charger. I bought cheap stuff 2 years ago because I thought that NiCd
> was established technology and so price didn't make much difference to
> quality.
>
> I was looking at converting to NiMH and using the La Crosse BC 900 /
> LaCrosse RS900 / Technoline iCharger as at least it gives some
> information on the battery condition.
>
> I don't really understand what I need, so any thoughts would be
> appreciated


For rechargeable batteries, use Sanyo eneloop batteries, and the Maha
MH-C401FS. I'd pass on the LaCrosse charger. The eneloop batteries have
essentially solved the self-discharge problem of NiMH batteries.

Since you don't use it often, you might even just buy some Energizer
lithium non-rechargeable cells (4/$10). These have a very long shelf
life and a very slow self-discharge cycle.

Steve
http://batterydata.com/
 
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SMS
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      06-12-2007
cassia wrote:
> On Jun 10, 3:07 pm, Daytona <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> On 10 Jun, 22:05, Daytona <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>
>>> Since I don't use my camera that often,
>>> which is the best type of battery to use ?

>> The camera is a basic point and shoot Canon A70.

>
> These are just AA right? So far, I've had the BEST experience with the
> Duracell Ultra Digital batteries. I use them in my flash (the SB800)
> and the recycle time and life has been dramatically better. For future
> reference, never buy a camera that takes anything other that a lithium
> ion battery; you'll be much happier. Good luck.


Yeah, that's the bottom line, though the low-end cameras like the Canom
A series use AA batteries because it saves the manufacturer money. With
the Sanyo eneloop batteries, at least one of the many problems of AA
batteries is solved (self-discharge) though the other problems remain.
 
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SMS
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      06-12-2007
Ron Hunter wrote:
> Daytona wrote:
>> On 10 Jun, 22:28, cassia <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>
>>> These are just AA right? So far, I've had the BEST experience with the
>>> Duracell Ultra Digital batteries. I use them in my flash (the SB800)
>>> and the recycle time and life has been dramatically better. For future
>>> reference, never buy a camera that takes anything other that a lithium
>>> ion battery; you'll be much happier. Good luck.

>>
>> Yes they're AA, I've just checked and the camera can take NiMH, but I
>> don't know about lithium - are they better ?
>>
>> Daytona
>>

> There are lithium AA batteries, and there are litiium ion batteries. The
> lithium ion batteries are a nominal 3.7 volts, and are not suitable for
> use in cameras made for AA batteries, but there are lithium disposables
> which are, and they work very will in most equipment. There are
> advantages to lithium ion batteries, such as low weight, and long use
> life, and slow self-discharge rates, cold weather performance, etc., but
> availability is not good since most of them are proprietary.


While it's true that you can't buy them in "the middle of nowhere," most
Li-Ion packs have multiple sources, including after-market brands that
are not expensive. The advantages of Li-Ion batteries for cameras are
overwhelming, except it costs the manufacturer more to provide a battery
and charger at time of sale, so the cheaper cameras use AAs.
 
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Allen
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      06-12-2007
SMS wrote:
<snip>
> Yeah, that's the bottom line, though the low-end cameras like the Canom
> A series use AA batteries because it saves the manufacturer money. With
> the Sanyo eneloop batteries, at least one of the many problems of AA
> batteries is solved (self-discharge) though the other problems remain.


Please list at least some of the "many problems" of AA batteries.
Allen
 
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SMS
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      06-12-2007
Allen wrote:
> SMS wrote:
> <snip>
>> Yeah, that's the bottom line, though the low-end cameras like the
>> Canom A series use AA batteries because it saves the manufacturer
>> money. With the Sanyo eneloop batteries, at least one of the many
>> problems of AA batteries is solved (self-discharge) though the other
>> problems remain.

>
> Please list at least some of the "many problems" of AA batteries.
> Allen


See "http://batterydata.com". In the table of contents click on
"Advantages of Li-Ion Batteries/Disadvantages of NiMH batteries (AA/AAA)"

But here's a list:

-High Self-Discharge Rate
-Lower Number of Charge/Discharge Cycles
-Lower Energy Density by Weight and Volume
-Inconvenience of charging and swapping and keeping track of multiple
packs of multiple cells
-Poor Cold weather performance
-Lower reliability of devices that use them
-Lower reliability of batteries over long periods of non-use
-No protection circuitry
-No accurate charge level indication in device is possible

I do have cameras that use AA batteries, as well as ones that use Li-Ion
batteries. While I've learned to "never say never," it'd be highly
unlikely that I'd buy another camera that used AA batteries.

The advantages of Li-Ion are overwhelming, while the sole advantage of
AA is that if you find yourself ITMON (in the middle of nowhere) with no
vehicle and no AC power, you can always buy some AA batteries at that
little country store.

Even the price of AA batteries isn't really an advantage if you look at
the big picture. As long as the camera you use has after-market Li-Ion
packs available, the price difference is small to non-existent.

It's not for no reason that all the high end cameras use Li-Ion, not to
mention all cell phones, PDAs, laptop computers, etc. Even some high end
flashlights and bicycle lights now use Li-Ion rechargeables.
 
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Thomas T. Veldhouse
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      06-12-2007
Daytona <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
> I was looking at converting to NiMH and using the La Crosse BC 900 /
> LaCrosse RS900 / Technoline iCharger as at least it gives some
> information on the battery condition.
>
> I don't really understand what I need, so any thoughts would be
> appreciated
>


Get the Maha MH-C9000 (Powerex) charger; you will be much happier.

As for that. If you use your flash a lot and often, then look at PowerEx or
Sanyo 2700mAh NiMH batteries. If you tend to leave your flash unused for a
couple weeks at a time, I would consider buying the low discharge batteries.
I own several Rayovac Hybrid 2100mAh batteries and several Sanyo Eneloop
2000mAh batteries. Both of these batteries tend to exceed the rated
capacities on most cases, however I did more variance with the Rayovac
batteries. These should hold a charge between uses even when months apart.

--
Thomas T. Veldhouse

If you took all of the grains of sand in the world, and lined
them up end to end in a row, you'd be working for the government!
-- Mr. Interesting


 
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Thomas T. Veldhouse
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      06-12-2007
Thomas T. Veldhouse <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> Daytona <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>
>> I was looking at converting to NiMH and using the La Crosse BC 900 /
>> LaCrosse RS900 / Technoline iCharger as at least it gives some
>> information on the battery condition.
>>
>> I don't really understand what I need, so any thoughts would be
>> appreciated
>>

>
> Get the Maha MH-C9000 (Powerex) charger; you will be much happier.
>
> As for that. If you use your flash a lot and often, then look at PowerEx or
> Sanyo 2700mAh NiMH batteries. If you tend to leave your flash unused for a
> couple weeks at a time, I would consider buying the low discharge batteries.
> I own several Rayovac Hybrid 2100mAh batteries and several Sanyo Eneloop
> 2000mAh batteries. Both of these batteries tend to exceed the rated
> capacities on most cases, however I did more variance with the Rayovac
> batteries. These should hold a charge between uses even when months apart.
>


I referenced your "flash" above as I read another users post first, which
indicates a flash. Substitute "camera" where I say flash and the rest
applies.

--
Thomas T. Veldhouse

If you took all of the grains of sand in the world, and lined
them up end to end in a row, you'd be working for the government!
-- Mr. Interesting


 
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ASAAR
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      06-12-2007
On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 07:51:29 -0700, Fudmeister S. Scharf stated:

>> Please list at least some of the "many problems" of AA batteries.
>> Allen

> . . .
>
> But here's a list:
>
> -High Self-Discharge Rate


More of your nonsense and apparent disinformation. Li-Ion
batteries do have a lower self-discharge rate than the standard, old
type NiMH batteries. But the new type (Sanyo Eneloop, RayOVac
Hybrid, etc.) of precharged NiMH batteries have much lower
self-discharge rates than Li-Ion. The self discharge rates of
alkaline and lithium AA batteries is so low that it's silly to even
think of them having *any* self discharge rate. Both alkalines and
lithium AA batteries have shelf lives many years longer than the
life of the typical camera that they're used in.


> -Lower Number of Charge/Discharge Cycles


Another of your repeated, dishonest claims. Most NiMH battery
manufacturers claim at least 1,000 charge/discharge cycles. At
least one makes a more modest claim of 500 cycles. Name a Li-Ion
manufacturer that claims more than 1,000 charge/discharge cycles.

But comparing the number of cycles is pointless, because
virtually no Li-Ion battery, at least those used in most consumer
cameras, will last long enough to undergo even 100 charge/discharge
cycles. Pros might exceed several hundred, but most people don't
use their cameras so heavily. Even *you* have stated, right here,
that Li-Ion batteries have a life of about 3 years. Let's see, with
1,000 charge cycles spread out over 3 years, that amounts to needing
to recharge the Li-Ion battery every day. At about 300 shots per
charge, that amounts to over 100,000 shots per year. Most people
take several hundred shots per year. Some dedicated amateurs might
exceed several thousand. At these rates the batteries would need to
be recharged from a couple of times/year to a couple of dozen times
per year. And by the time the Li-Ion batteries would need to be
replaced, it's unlikely that the batteries would have reached a
dozen charge/discharge cycles for most people, or 100 cycles for any
but the most atypical active amateurs

In other words, your claim that Li-Ion batteries provide a greater
number of charge/discharge cycles is not only incorrect, it's a
bogus, meaningless claim, since virtually nobody that treats their
batteries properly (ie, they don't kill them by using them
improperly) will ever utilize the potential of either Li-Ion or NiMH
batteries.


> -Lower Energy Density by Weight and Volume


Yes, at least for NiMH AA batteries where weight is concerned.
But the energy density of NiMH batteries has greatly increased over
the years. My early 900mAh NiMH batteries contained 1/3 the energy
of today's 2,700mAh batteries. So the difference between the energy
density of Li-Ion and today's NiMH batteries with respect to volume
is quite small. My latest Canon P&S that uses AA NiMH batteries can
take up to 1,600 shots per charge. Can you name another P&S camera
that uses Li-Ion batteries that comes close to 1,600 shots per
charge? If not, how about 800 shots per charge?


> -Inconvenience of charging and swapping and keeping track of multiple
> packs of multiple cells


You're still using bogus arguments, talking about cameras that
were sold at least 5 years ago. Many of today's cameras can and do
go several months on a single charge. That has been reported by
many people in this newsgroup over the last couple of years. They
no more need multiple sets of batteries than cameras that use Li-Ion
batteries. If fact, it's worse for many cameras that use Li-Ion
batteries, as I'm not aware of any that can go for over 1,000 shots
per charge. They would NEED multiple battery packs. My Fuji and
Canon P&S cameras don't, so I don't even think about bringing more
than the batteries installed in the camera unless I'll be away
taking many pictures for several days. Even then I don't *have* to
bring a second set along, since if need be, I can pick up some more
AA batteries wherever I happen to be, 24x7.


> -Poor Cold weather performance


Also misleading. Li-Ion performs better at moderately low
temperatures than alkaline and NiMH batteries. But when the
temperatures get very low, Li-Ion batteries also suffer, and quit
working when lithium AA batteries keep working without (so to speak)
raising a sweat. You are aware, aren't you, that lithium AA
batteries are rated for use in temperatures as low as 40 below zero?
If you doubt it, check one of Energizer's lithium AA packages, where
the temperature range is clearly printed. Li-Ion batteries don't
come close to matching that low temperature ability.


> -Lower reliability of devices that use them


Not that I've ever noticed. I've had a couple of cell phones that
had to be replaced due to battery problems. They used Li-Ion
batteries. My older cell phones that use NiMH batteries still work,
and the only reason why I stopped using them was related to
switching to another carrier that had a more economical plan.


> -Lower reliability of batteries over long periods of non-use


Absolutely wrong, FUDmeister Flash. If unused for really long
periods, NiMH batteries usually have no problems that a couple of
charge cycles (or a charger's reconditioning cycle) won't usually
cure. I'm still using a large number of 1,600 mAh RayOVac NiMH
batteries, most of which have sat unused at one time or another for
a year or two. Li-Ion batteries on the other hand can become
completely inoperable, and won't be able to be charged at all if
they go too long between charges. This is well known, and several
Li-Ion battery manufacturers include instructions with their battery
packs, warning that a slight charge (just a few minutes is enough)
is needed at least every 6 months. And with shelf lives of 8 years
and 15 years, this is *not* a problem for alkaline and lithium
batteries.


> -No protection circuitry


Because they don't need protective circuits. Li-Ion batteries
have been notorious for either exploding, or more usually, creating
intense fires. Protective circuits aren't used where they aren't
needed. Even single cell lithium AA batteries have protective
circuits (internal) that alkaline and NiMH don't require. Why do
you think that NiMH and even much lower capacity NiCd batteries
perform much better in speedlights than lithium AA batteries? Hint:
The lithium battery's protective circuit.


> -No accurate charge level indication in device is possible


This is a flat out lie. It's only economics that prevents
accurate charge level indicators from being used for NiMH or NiCD
batteries. I've already given an example of a very accurate battery
meter used with NiMH batteries, but your Li-Ion zealotry may have
something to do with your repeating this nonsense.

 
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SMS
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      06-12-2007
Thomas T. Veldhouse wrote:

> As for that. If you use your flash a lot and often, then look at PowerEx or
> Sanyo 2700mAh NiMH batteries. If you tend to leave your flash unused for a
> couple weeks at a time, I would consider buying the low discharge batteries.
> I own several Rayovac Hybrid 2100mAh batteries and several Sanyo Eneloop
> 2000mAh batteries. Both of these batteries tend to exceed the rated
> capacities on most cases, however I did more variance with the Rayovac
> batteries. These should hold a charge between uses even when months apart.


I think the issue here is that the camera is used infrequently. That
being the case, the original poster might want to consider using either
Sanyon eneloop, or Energizer lithium non-rechargeables.

My son has an old A60, similar to the original poster's A70, and the
Energizer lithium non-rechargeables work well considering that he uses
the camera infrequently. Next time I see the eneloops on sale I might
buy four of them.
 
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SMS
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      06-12-2007
SMS wrote:
> Daytona wrote:
>> My 4 cheap nicad battaries have failed after only about 10 cycles, at
>> least, the power output on 1 is well down and the net result is that I
>> can only manage 2 pictures. Since I don't use my camera that often,
>> which is the best type of battery to use ?
>>
>> I've got a cheap 2 hour fast charger and I'm wondering whether that
>> could be part of the problem, as before I used to have a trickle
>> charger. I bought cheap stuff 2 years ago because I thought that NiCd
>> was established technology and so price didn't make much difference to
>> quality.
>>
>> I was looking at converting to NiMH and using the La Crosse BC 900 /
>> LaCrosse RS900 / Technoline iCharger as at least it gives some
>> information on the battery condition.
>>
>> I don't really understand what I need, so any thoughts would be
>> appreciated

>
> For rechargeable batteries, use Sanyo eneloop batteries, and the Maha
> MH-C401FS. I'd pass on the LaCrosse charger. The eneloop batteries have
> essentially solved the self-discharge problem of NiMH batteries.


BTW, Amazon sells eight-packs of the eneloop AA cells for $19.99
including shipping (if you buy something to get your order to $25).

"http://tinyurl.com/ysw9vd"
 
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