«

"Frisbee®" <> wrote in message
news:...
> "CertGuard" <CertGuard - The Stronghold for Excellence in IT Certification and
> Exam Security> wrote in message news:...
>>
>>
>> "kpg" <> wrote in message
>> news:Xns9907731B0FAC9ipostthereforeiam@207.46.248. 16...
>>>
>>>
>>> That was beautiful man. And right on.
>>>
>>> ...but let CertGaurd "Fight The Good Fight". It's like an insurgency,
>>> just keep that constant steady pressure on and one day cracks will
>>> appear, or not, that's not the point. What's right is the point. I
>>> myself don't have the desire to hit my head against a brick wall, but
>>> I glad some are that thick headed...um, I mean courageous.
>>>
>>> Right On!
>>>
>>> Fight The Power!
>>>
>> So that's all this is to you guys, huh? I guess I've kinda seen this all
>> along, but refused to acknowledge it. Wow, this really opens things up.
>>
>> So you do just like reading your own text?! And you are saying that you DON'T
>> care about the certs, you just want to b!tch about them losing value.
>> Amazing, and to think I bought into *your* program.
>>
>> Thanks for all the support, really!
>
> "you guys" is painting a rather broad brush.
>
> Many of us have other obligations. Many of us see the Don Qixote-ness of it
> all. It's getting pretty bad when even members of the MCNGP take the MCNGP
> too seriously. Most of us are glad that you have this passion and time. I
> intend to support you as much as I am able, but there are limits. I have
> other, meaner bosses to answer to. In other words, I get enough grief for
> belonging to a tongue-in-cheek group already. I really don't need even more
> grief. I'll never quit smoking at this rate.
>
> Lighten up already. Keep fighting the fight, but you don't have to take
> yourself so seriously in doing it, do you?
>
> Okay, maybe I would if I had the time and resources...
>
>
maybe 'you guys' was a little out of line...I apologize. I understand kpg
doesn't speak for everyone...heck, he was the last one I expected that blurb out
of. NTTAWWT, we all have our own opinions.

I understand obligations, I'm working a full-time+ job, planning a wedding (less
than 2 weeks away), repairing a house that isn't even mine yet, taking care of
an adult that doesn't want to live where he is (but refuses to move out), AND
I'm spending as much time as possible on CertGuard. Do you think my 'boss' isn't
PO'd at me most of the time?

And yes, I do have to take myself seriously...if I don't, who will?

--
CG

"Kline Sphere" <.@> wrote in message
news:...
>>> ...but let CertGaurd "Fight The Good Fight". It's like an insurgency,
>>> just keep that constant steady pressure on and one day cracks will
>>> appear, or not, that's not the point. What's right is the point. I
>>> myself don't have the desire to hit my head against a brick wall, but
>>> I glad some are that thick headed...um, I mean courageous.
>>>
>>> Right On!
>>>
>>> Fight The Power!
>>>
>>So that's all this is to you guys, huh? I guess I've kinda seen this all
>>along,
>>but refused to acknowledge it. Wow, this really opens things up.
>>
>>So you do just like reading your own text?! And you are saying that you DON'T
>>care about the certs, you just want to b!tch about them losing value. Amazing,
>>and to think I bought into *your* program.
>>
>>Thanks for all the support, really!
>
> i think you need to lighten up a little!
>
> i guess some of us (or maybe it's just me?) have become long in the
> tooth pointing out the flaws (or should that be floors, JaR!) with
> 'microsoft' certs. no one's having a pop at Certgard, and i for one
> wish you every success, but these facts have been brought to
> microsoft's attention before, and well, nothing's happened.
>
> Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3

That's because it wasn't done properly. I intend on doing this properly.

And thanks


--
CG

>I'm not Laura I'm afraid (nor am I into S&M!); will an IT Girl do?

you bet baby!

>Seriously, if MS can't (or won't) do anything about the problem, then we
>need to scream and shout about it to make sure that employers and
>recruitment consultants (many of whom are terminally stupid) are aware of it
>and actually educate them into checking out the credentials of a candidate
>who purports to be certified.

recruitment (*cough*) consultants , are just sales people, why
companies fell the need to use them to hire people has always amazed
me! they don't care who they 'sell' has long as they (and no some
other body shop) 'sell' someone.

>One of our offices in the UK recently fired one of its senior IT managers -
>this guy once asked a colleague of mine how to connect to a shared folder on
>one of the servers and was told by my surprised colleague to go Start > Run
>and type the UNC path to the folder. He then proceeded to type "U-N-C" into
>the Run dialog box until my colleague explained to him what the UNC was.

we've all heard stories like that. about ten years ago, my company had
started looking into microsoft stuff, they bought in same tin pot ms
partner outfit, one of their 'senior' grunts who was an mcsd, never
even knew how to register a com component. so that little venture was
doomed!

>The problem then gets compounded, as people like this blag their way into
>senior positions, and then deliberately recruit even more useless underlings
>to ensure their incompetence doesn't get discovered. And so it goes on.

I personally have no sympathy with any company who allows that to
happen. i still find it hard to believe it could happen, but yeah i
know is does, ha, funny really.

>I've lost count of the number of useless IT professionals I've come into
>contact with over the years. This was a factor, albeit a minor one, in my
>decision to change career and move into IT.

do you regret it now?

>Perhaps if more employers imposed technical tests on candidates and checked
>out their certifications instead of believing whatever BS they come out with
>at interview, the cheaters and incompetents would not be able to take jobs
>off genuinely skilled people, whose certifications were come by honestly.

' technical tests' is what certification 'should' be providing; well
as far as ms cert's go, they prove zilch.

technical tests are good, time consuming, but still a good way to
determine someone's experience. back home, we give technical tests to
all prospective software engineers, but these tests tend to be
generalized in nature and not tied to a technology or vender. if
someone has the business knowledge and has experience in the field, we
can train such people to use .net, j2ee or whatever. an experienced
software engineer who's worked with c++ could learn java, c# in no
time, but learning 'the business', that takes years....

Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3

>>Seriously, if MS can't (or won't) do anything about the problem, then we
>>need to scream and shout about it to make sure that employers and
>>recruitment consultants (many of whom are terminally stupid) are aware of it
>>and actually educate them into checking out the credentials of a candidate
>>who purports to be certified.
>
>recruitment (*cough*) consultants , are just sales people, why
>companies fell the need to use them to hire people has always amazed
>me! they don't care who they 'sell' has long as they (and no some
>other body shop) 'sell' someone.

should also have added that in my books, having fcuking sense of humor
goes a long way when looking to recruit someone. you can't train
someone in having a fun personality!

Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3

On Tue, 3 Apr 2007 13:28:21 -0500, "CertGuard" <CertGuard - The
Stronghold for Excellence in IT Certification and Exam Security>
wrote:

>planning a wedding (less
>than 2 weeks away)

don't do it man, there's still time to get out of it

Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3

"JaR" <> wrote in message
news:#...
> CertGuard wrote:
>>>
>> This article wasn't directly targeted at M$ as much as it was the cheaters
>> that have taken advantage of every certification. Ok, there are more cheaters
>> that are M$ certified, and yes, it's because of reasons that Kline stated
>> (amongst many other reasons), but sitting here complaining to people that
>> have heard it all before isn't going to take care of the problem. I know how
>> you feel, I feel the same way. Why do you think I've opted to expand? It's
>> time we let other's hear our voices. Unless you just like reading your own
>> text. I can tell you right now that most of the 'outsiders' read a few posts
>> in here, form an opinion of the group as a whole, then never come back.
>>
>
> BD, I think it's great that you and Certguard have taken up the challenge to
> try to make a difference with MS Certs. Go for it, dude. We need a bulldog to
> spit in the face of the lusers out there devaluing our certs. But you know,
> man, I look at it this way: if I can discourage one fscking luser from going
> after a cert in the first place, I have done the industry a service. We do not
> need *more* certified lusers. We need talented techies that understand the
> industry and the software. The 'outsiders' you refer to, I could give a fsck
> less about.
>
And I agree with you 100% JaR (except for that last sentence). I'm not saying
give up the core values, all I'm saying is that when it comes to dealing with
the corporations, there is a better way.

As for the 'outsiders' I was referring to, they're the people you want to
listen...the execs that run the small, medium, and large businesses in the US
and UK (ok, other places too). Those are the people that need to be made aware
of this...as TheITGirl pointed out, "Perhaps if more employers imposed technical
tests on candidates and checked out their certifications instead of believing
whatever BS they come out with at interview, the cheaters and incompetents would
not be able to take jobs off genuinely skilled people, whose certifications were
come by honestly." Well, they're not here anymore.


>
>> Maybe so, but people are buying into it. If I'm not mistaken, your signature
>> says you have too. So, is being a "Certified" monkey all it's cracked up to
>> be? Chill...I'm just tryin to get your goat. So what says that we, as
>> professionals in the industry, cannot turn that around? If you're so worried
>> about the value of your certifications, then why haven't you done anything
>> about it? Or is it just something to b!tch about, it's just not worth your
>> time to do anything about?
>>
>
> Yup, I bought into it. Hook, line & sinker. Just get a Microsoft cert or three
> and HR droids will start tossing money at you. Then I start applying for jobs
> and find out that half the clowns working behind the service counter at
> CompUSA are MCSEs! Is it all it's cracked up to be? You are joking, right? It
> was an incredible waste of time and money. I will not be taking anymore MS
> certs on my own. If an employer wants me to have more letters after my name he
> can pay for it.
>
LOL...yes, that whole line was just a chain yank. Hence the "Chill...I'm just
tryin to get your goat." I understand your frustrations, I've got the same (or
similar) frustrations myself.


> Whatwould you like us to do? Write to Microsoft? Done that. Talk with their
> people? We did that too. I am not worried about the value of my so-called
> certs. Don't you get it? I have written them off.
>
It's not about writing TO them, or talking TO their people. It's about educating
the people that don't know better. And the way I see it, if you're still posting
their certs in your sig, you haven't written them off, not completely anyways.


> The only way that we, the professionals, will be able to turn it around will
> be to discourage people from participating in such a fundamentally flawed
> process. Stop people from even thinking about getting certified.
>
> Yup, we can take on the cheats, gunmen, whatever. But until MS cleans up it's
> testing procedures, y'all are tilting at windmills. Sorry. Microsoft could
> shut down the cheating overnight, if they had any desire to. Simply by the
> steps outlined in this thread. But heck, there's other things they could be
> doing as well.
>
> They don't want to.
>
> It's that simple.
>
Is de-flawing the process not an option? Exam Security is the #1 reason behind
all of the problems that we're talking about. And it's not just M$, the problem
lies in the testing centers themselves. THEY are the reason TK is so big, THEY
are the reason there are so many cheaters, it's not just the type of exam
(although yes, that does play a part in it).

I really don't think it's that they don't want to, it's just that there are
better ways to deal with this sort of thing than to just yank the certification
process out from under the feet of the hundreds of thousands of legitimately
certified individuals.

MCSE, I know you're aware, has been considered a legacy certification for a
couple years now. There's no use in trying to get the MCSE certification process
changed, but there are new certs that they are working on changing. And from
what I hear, it's working...we'll see once the results are out.

>>>
>> I've come to NOT expect anything from anyone anymore. It's a worthless waste
>> of my time to expect someone else to do something that I can do myself. In
>> this case, maybe I can, maybe I can't. If I yell, 'uncle' then you'll know
>> I've given up.
>>
>
> No, don't give up. Keep tilting at that damb windmill. Fer Ghodsakes, you
> might be right, and I might be wrong. If I'm wrong about Microsoft, and they
> are merely too venal to clean up the cert process, you will have done the
> industry a huge service by convincing them to behave responsibly.
>
I'm not giving up, if I were giving up, you'd see a 404 where CertGuard used to
be. Next time you see me pushing at that windmill...do me a favor and jump in
and give me a freakin' hand, ferghodsakes.


>
>> If they want Top Techs, yes, why not? We all know that MCP, in and of itself,
>> is virtually meaningless. Only when combined with other MCP exams do the
>> certs begin to have meaning. Unfortunately, as you've stated, an
>> overabundance of even those certs (MCSE, CCNP, etc.) are killing the value.
>> You can thank the gunmen for those, and they are being taken care of (the
>> gunmen and the cheaters).
>>
>
> Overabundance is not 'killing' the value. It has 'killed' the value. Period.
> Remember what MCSE stands for? How many MCSEs do you think there are out there
> that are qualified Systems Engineers? How many MCSAs do you think there are
> that could walk into any company and fill a Sysadmin's chair?
>
You're right, and I agree. And I realize that MCSEs will be needed for a long
time to come, but it is a legacy cert and many people won't be pursuing it for
much longer, so you can expect a drop in those certs coming real soon. You stick
with the MCSE cert and you'll be fine in a few years, I'm sure you'll have no
problems finding high paying jobs.

>>>
>> Instead, why don't we take the opportunity to help shape the program into
>> what it should be? What does complaining about it do? I've learnt a lot in
>> the time that I've been here, but one thing I've known all along is that
>> b!tching about it doesn't work. It doesn't get your voice heard any faster
>> than the people in the next newsgroup, in fact, the people that should be
>> listening closed the doors long ago.
>
> Nope, b!tching about it does no good, other than to let off some steam. We got
> sucked in once by Microsofties claiming to want our opinions on 'shaping the
> program'. Maybe this time will be different, but I doubt it. They know exactly
> what they are doing, bro. What opportunity are you referring to? You're right,
> they closed the doors long ago.
>
I hear you, I've don't my fair share of 'letting off steam', I'm just tired of
letting off steam to people that aren't listening. Tell me...have you listened
to me more since I quit letting off steam? You're definitely responding more.

> That's it. Venting over. We now return y'all to your regularly scheduled very
> important stuff. Please disregard all above. I'm putting the soapbox away for
> another year or so.
>
It has been a while hasn't it?!

> --
> JaR
> MCP, MCP, MCP, MCP, MCSA
> Remove hat to reply

"Kline Sphere" <.@> wrote in message
news:...
> On Tue, 3 Apr 2007 13:28:21 -0500, "CertGuard" <CertGuard - The
> Stronghold for Excellence in IT Certification and Exam Security>
> wrote:
>
>>planning a wedding (less
>>than 2 weeks away)
>
> don't do it man, there's still time to get out of it
>
> Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3

LOL...I've heard that 5 times this week alone...

--
CG

CertGuard wrote:
And the way I see it, if
> you're still posting their certs in your sig, you haven't written them
> off, not completely anyways.
>

LOL! Look again. The .sigs in this thread are just my routine digs at M.
Alligood, MCP. When else have you seen me list certs in my .sig?

>> That's it. Venting over. We now return y'all to your regularly
>> scheduled very important stuff. Please disregard all above. I'm
>> putting the soapbox away for another year or so.
>>
> It has been a while hasn't it?!
>

Eh, too long maybe.

--
JaR
A+, Net+ MCP, Fan of Michael(MCP) Alligood
Remove hat to reply

"CertGuard" <CertGuard - The Stronghold for Excellence in IT
Certification and Exam Security> wrote in
news::

> maybe 'you guys' was a little out of line...I apologize. I understand
> kpg doesn't speak for everyone...heck, he was the last one I expected
> that blurb out of. NTTAWWT, we all have our own opinions.

Not sure what part of my post you read wrong...but...I was trying
to temper JaR's harsh yet valid remarks while at the same time
provide some moral support - I was not being sarcastic when
I said "Fight the Good Fight" and "Fight the Power" although the
I'm not opposed to the inherit futility that those phrases imply.

Granted I don't contribute nearly as much as you do toward the cause,
but I never intended my remarks to disparage your efforts (not
withstanding the "hard head" remark, which I'm inclined to believe
is true, no?).

Come on, it's a badge of honor to be playfully besmirched by your
brothers-in-arms-that-sit-on-their-a$$-behind-the-lines while
you do the work that Americans won't do.

Fris is right, you need to lighten up.

....and get back to work fixing that cert thing.

0x22

"Kline Sphere" <.@> wrote in message
news:...
> >I'm not Laura I'm afraid (nor am I into S&M!); will an IT Girl do?
>
> you bet baby!
>
>>Seriously, if MS can't (or won't) do anything about the problem, then we
>>need to scream and shout about it to make sure that employers and
>>recruitment consultants (many of whom are terminally stupid) are aware of
>>it
>>and actually educate them into checking out the credentials of a candidate
>>who purports to be certified.
>
> recruitment (*cough*) consultants , are just sales people, why
> companies fell the need to use them to hire people has always amazed
> me! they don't care who they 'sell' has long as they (and no some
> other body shop) 'sell' someone.
>
I so HATE recruitment consultments! Ooooh, their horrible sing-song voices
and fake smiles! When I was working as a legal secretary they used to send
us some dire, and I mean dire, temps. I know everyone's human and we all
make mistakes, but when there's not one, but half a dozen, typos in every
line ... you get t he picture!

I've also used them on the odd occasion when I've been looking to change
jobs - got sent to interviews for some totally unsuitable positions.

>>One of our offices in the UK recently fired one of its senior IT
>>managers -
>>this guy once asked a colleague of mine how to connect to a shared folder
>>on
>>one of the servers and was told by my surprised colleague to go Start >
>>Run
>>and type the UNC path to the folder. He then proceeded to type "U-N-C"
>>into
>>the Run dialog box until my colleague explained to him what the UNC was.
>
> we've all heard stories like that. about ten years ago, my company had
> started looking into microsoft stuff, they bought in same tin pot ms
> partner outfit, one of their 'senior' grunts who was an mcsd, never
> even knew how to register a com component. so that little venture was
> doomed!

In stark contrast, in my previous job I was working on the helpdesk of a
large law firm. There were 18 of us on the team, all extremely
knowledgeable, none of them certified and many, IMO, totally wasted on the
helpdesk. However, some people are their own worst enemy. One of the guys
on the team had been doing 1st line support for 8 years and had been
applying for jobs on other teams within the company, without success. He
told me he had been waiting for over a year for the firm to cough up for an
MCDST course he wanted to go on. I asked him why he didn't just buy the
books and study himself, taking the exam when he felt he was ready. His
answer was something along the lines of "well, yes, I suppose I could do
that; I'll think about it ...".
>
>>The problem then gets compounded, as people like this blag their way into
>>senior positions, and then deliberately recruit even more useless
>>underlings
>>to ensure their incompetence doesn't get discovered. And so it goes on.
>
> I personally have no sympathy with any company who allows that to
> happen. i still find it hard to believe it could happen, but yeah i
> know is does, ha, funny really.
>

It would be even funnier if these guys weren't earning four or five times
more than me!

>>I've lost count of the number of useless IT professionals I've come into
>>contact with over the years. This was a factor, albeit a minor one, in my
>>decision to change career and move into IT.
>
> do you regret it now?

Not one bit. I'm getting paid to do something I enjoy - playing with
computers!

I am now working for one of the UK offices of an American law firm with
offices in Europe. The difference in culture between this firm and the
British law firms I have worked for (with the exception of one lovely firm,
which I worked at for 16 years) is phenomenal. Yes, they expect you to work
hard, but you do feel that your work is appreciated. British firms tend to
want you to work long hours and still treat you like s**t.

I work in a relatively small branch office with just two IT staff: a DST
(me) and an SA. I've recently been appointed a member of the firm's user
account creation team, which means I get some experience with Active
Directory, which I hope will stand me in good stead for the 70-290, when the
time comes! My colleague is a really good SA, and I'm learning a lot from
him. A couple of months back he let me install Server 2003 onto a brand new
server - not many firms would let a relative newbie like me loose on that!

>
>>Perhaps if more employers imposed technical tests on candidates and
>>checked
>>out their certifications instead of believing whatever BS they come out
>>with
>>at interview, the cheaters and incompetents would not be able to take jobs
>>off genuinely skilled people, whose certifications were come by honestly.
>
> ' technical tests' is what certification 'should' be providing; well
> as far as ms cert's go, they prove zilch.
>
That is what they were intended to provide, of course, but they can't be
relied on 100% any longer because of braindumps, gunmen and the like.

> technical tests are good, time consuming, but still a good way to
> determine someone's experience. back home, we give technical tests to
> all prospective software engineers, but these tests tend to be
> generalized in nature and not tied to a technology or vender. if
> someone has the business knowledge and has experience in the field, we
> can train such people to use .net, j2ee or whatever. an experienced
> software engineer who's worked with c++ could learn java, c# in no
> time, but learning 'the business', that takes years....
>
I agree. I spent over 20 years in law firms as a secretary before moving
into IT. Apart from a brief stint in a low-paid student IT position with
the NHS, I have found myself working for law firms again in an IT capacity.
I know the way lawyers like to work, the terminology they use, they
accounting procedures they have to use, the pressures their clients put them
under, etc. This has helped me to hit the ground running in my last two
jobs. Of course, I like to think I'm quite a good DST as well

> Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3