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Part 1 of a series I'm writing

 
 
CertGuard
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      04-03-2007


"JaR" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> CertGuard wrote:
>>
>>
>> "Kline Sphere" <.@> wrote in message
>> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>>> >I'm writing a series of articles for Brad Reese and NetworkWorld.com
>>> that
>>>> most of you should be interested in. It's titled "The Cheating Industry
>>>> that
>>>> is devaluing IT Certification" check it out.
>>>>
>>>> It's currently being promoted on the main Cisco Subnet page of
>>>> NetworkWorld.com
>>>> http://www.networkworld.com/subnets/cisco/
>>>>
>>>> This is part 1 of the article:
>>>> http://www.networkworld.com/community/?q=node/13341
>>>
>>> the main reason why it is easy for people cheat is down to the format
>>> of the exams. this is especially so regarding the ms exams, where
>>> there are no 'written' or lab based exams (which many other vendors
>>> already do) and no proof of experience in the industry is required.
>>> until microsoft change the format for these exams, nothing will change
>>> and ms exams will continue to be considered worthless by all but the
>>> most stupid of ms partner body shops. if ms wanted to make their certs
>>> respected, they would have done so a long time ago.
>>>
>>> So, as far as ms goes, you should be pointing the finger at them as
>>> well, because they are the root of the problem and only they can make
>>> the changes required to make a real difference.
>>>
>>> Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3

>>
>> We're working on that. One of the goals CertGuard has set to get straightened
>> out is Exam Security. That includes all aspects of Exam Security, from the
>> Testing Centers to the Vendors. I agree, even M$ needs to be critiqued on
>> this issue.
>>
>> Chalk, I value your opinion greatly. If we're going to get the word out that
>> this needs to be done, I'm asking you to take a couple minutes to respond
>> with what you said here, on Brad's blog. There are 100s of 1000s of readers
>> there and many are in a position to do something about it.
>>

>
> Foo. Microsoft knows what needs to be done. Are you seriously going to sit
> there and tell me that a multi-billion dollar company with some of the
> highest-priced talent involved in their so-called certification process can't
> figure out how to run the damb thing so as to cut down on cheats? That they
> haven't looked at other, more respected certs and seen how they do it? That
> they haven't heard all this before? Jeez. They have heard it all right here,
> ferghodsake, back when they used to at least have a presence in here.
>

This article wasn't directly targeted at M$ as much as it was the cheaters that
have taken advantage of every certification. Ok, there are more cheaters that
are M$ certified, and yes, it's because of reasons that Kline stated (amongst
many other reasons), but sitting here complaining to people that have heard it
all before isn't going to take care of the problem. I know how you feel, I feel
the same way. Why do you think I've opted to expand? It's time we let other's
hear our voices. Unless you just like reading your own text. I can tell you
right now that most of the 'outsiders' read a few posts in here, form an opinion
of the group as a whole, then never come back.

> They haven't done anything because it is a marketing program, not a
> certification program. They make money off the process, and they can show that
> there are thousands of "Certified" monkeys all over the world to maintain
> their software for a dime an hour.
>

Maybe so, but people are buying into it. If I'm not mistaken, your signature
says you have too. So, is being a "Certified" monkey all it's cracked up to be?
Chill...I'm just tryin to get your goat. So what says that we, as professionals
in the industry, cannot turn that around? If you're so worried about the value
of your certifications, then why haven't you done anything about it? Or is it
just something to b!tch about, it's just not worth your time to do anything
about?

> And you really expect that they are going to clean up this money mill?
>

I've come to NOT expect anything from anyone anymore. It's a worthless waste of
my time to expect someone else to do something that I can do myself. In this
case, maybe I can, maybe I can't. If I yell, 'uncle' then you'll know I've given
up.

> Why?
>

^^^

> If the certs meant anything, the cert holders would want more money. Microsoft
> licensing is already expensive, do you expect customers to have to cough up
> top dollar for tech to admin it too? As long as the market is flooded with
> MCPs, they are going to be inexpensive.
>

If they want Top Techs, yes, why not? We all know that MCP, in and of itself, is
virtually meaningless. Only when combined with other MCP exams do the certs
begin to have meaning. Unfortunately, as you've stated, an overabundance of even
those certs (MCSE, CCNP, etc.) are killing the value. You can thank the gunmen
for those, and they are being taken care of (the gunmen and the cheaters).

> Lets just recognize the program for what it is, kay?
>

Instead, why don't we take the opportunity to help shape the program into what
it should be? What does complaining about it do? I've learnt a lot in the time
that I've been here, but one thing I've known all along is that b!tching about
it doesn't work. It doesn't get your voice heard any faster than the people in
the next newsgroup, in fact, the people that should be listening closed the
doors long ago.

> --
> JaR
> A+ Net+ MCP MCSA Michael Alligood fan.
> Remove hat to reply


--
CertGuard
Get the new 'No Braindump' CertGear
http://www.cafepress.com/certguard

 
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CertGuard
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      04-03-2007


"kpg" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:Xns9907731B0FAC9ipostthereforeiam@207.46.248. 16...
>
>
> That was beautiful man. And right on.
>
> ...but let CertGaurd "Fight The Good Fight". It's like an insurgency,
> just keep that constant steady pressure on and one day cracks will
> appear, or not, that's not the point. What's right is the point. I
> myself don't have the desire to hit my head against a brick wall, but
> I glad some are that thick headed...um, I mean courageous.
>
> Right On!
>
> Fight The Power!
>

So that's all this is to you guys, huh? I guess I've kinda seen this all along,
but refused to acknowledge it. Wow, this really opens things up.

So you do just like reading your own text?! And you are saying that you DON'T
care about the certs, you just want to b!tch about them losing value. Amazing,
and to think I bought into *your* program.

Thanks for all the support, really!


--
CertGuard
Get the new 'No Braindump' CertGear
http://www.cafepress.com/certguard

 
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JaR
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      04-03-2007
Kline Sphere wrote:
>
> i wish Laura was here to join in the debate.......
>


Only if there was a small chance that it would scale.

--
JaR
Without violating NDA, of course
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FrisbeeŽ
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      04-03-2007
"CertGuard" <CertGuard - The Stronghold for Excellence in IT Certification
and Exam Security> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>
>
> "kpg" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:Xns9907731B0FAC9ipostthereforeiam@207.46.248. 16...
>>
>>
>> That was beautiful man. And right on.
>>
>> ...but let CertGaurd "Fight The Good Fight". It's like an insurgency,
>> just keep that constant steady pressure on and one day cracks will
>> appear, or not, that's not the point. What's right is the point. I
>> myself don't have the desire to hit my head against a brick wall, but
>> I glad some are that thick headed...um, I mean courageous.
>>
>> Right On!
>>
>> Fight The Power!
>>

> So that's all this is to you guys, huh? I guess I've kinda seen this all
> along, but refused to acknowledge it. Wow, this really opens things up.
>
> So you do just like reading your own text?! And you are saying that you
> DON'T care about the certs, you just want to b!tch about them losing
> value. Amazing, and to think I bought into *your* program.
>
> Thanks for all the support, really!


"you guys" is painting a rather broad brush.

Many of us have other obligations. Many of us see the Don Qixote-ness of it
all. It's getting pretty bad when even members of the MCNGP take the MCNGP
too seriously. Most of us are glad that you have this passion and time. I
intend to support you as much as I am able, but there are limits. I have
other, meaner bosses to answer to. In other words, I get enough grief for
belonging to a tongue-in-cheek group already. I really don't need even more
grief. I'll never quit smoking at this rate.

Lighten up already. Keep fighting the fight, but you don't have to take
yourself so seriously in doing it, do you?

Okay, maybe I would if I had the time and resources...


 
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Kline Sphere
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      04-03-2007
>> ...but let CertGaurd "Fight The Good Fight". It's like an insurgency,
>> just keep that constant steady pressure on and one day cracks will
>> appear, or not, that's not the point. What's right is the point. I
>> myself don't have the desire to hit my head against a brick wall, but
>> I glad some are that thick headed...um, I mean courageous.
>>
>> Right On!
>>
>> Fight The Power!
>>

>So that's all this is to you guys, huh? I guess I've kinda seen this all along,
>but refused to acknowledge it. Wow, this really opens things up.
>
>So you do just like reading your own text?! And you are saying that you DON'T
>care about the certs, you just want to b!tch about them losing value. Amazing,
>and to think I bought into *your* program.
>
>Thanks for all the support, really!


i think you need to lighten up a little!

i guess some of us (or maybe it's just me?) have become long in the
tooth pointing out the flaws (or should that be floors, JaR!) with
'microsoft' certs. no one's having a pop at Certgard, and i for one
wish you every success, but these facts have been brought to
microsoft's attention before, and well, nothing's happened.

Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
 
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Kline Sphere
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      04-03-2007
>I get enough grief for
>belonging to a tongue-in-cheek group already.


is that just from the b0sses or from Mrs Frisbee as well?

Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
 
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Kline Sphere
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      04-03-2007
>In other words, I get enough grief for
>belonging to a tongue-in-cheek group already.


sorry Fris, by tongue-in-cheek group i thought you meant this
newsgroup, now I understand what you really meant, that you get grief
for belonging to that other tongue-in-cheek group, the Gator's fan
club, sorry man my bad.

Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
 
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JaR
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      04-03-2007
CertGuard wrote:
>>

> This article wasn't directly targeted at M$ as much as it was the
> cheaters that have taken advantage of every certification. Ok, there are
> more cheaters that are M$ certified, and yes, it's because of reasons
> that Kline stated (amongst many other reasons), but sitting here
> complaining to people that have heard it all before isn't going to take
> care of the problem. I know how you feel, I feel the same way. Why do
> you think I've opted to expand? It's time we let other's hear our
> voices. Unless you just like reading your own text. I can tell you right
> now that most of the 'outsiders' read a few posts in here, form an
> opinion of the group as a whole, then never come back.
>


BD, I think it's great that you and Certguard have taken up the
challenge to try to make a difference with MS Certs. Go for it, dude. We
need a bulldog to spit in the face of the lusers out there devaluing our
certs. But you know, man, I look at it this way: if I can discourage one
fscking luser from going after a cert in the first place, I have done
the industry a service. We do not need *more* certified lusers. We need
talented techies that understand the industry and the software. The
'outsiders' you refer to, I could give a fsck less about.


> Maybe so, but people are buying into it. If I'm not mistaken, your
> signature says you have too. So, is being a "Certified" monkey all it's
> cracked up to be? Chill...I'm just tryin to get your goat. So what says
> that we, as professionals in the industry, cannot turn that around? If
> you're so worried about the value of your certifications, then why
> haven't you done anything about it? Or is it just something to b!tch
> about, it's just not worth your time to do anything about?
>


Yup, I bought into it. Hook, line & sinker. Just get a Microsoft cert or
three and HR droids will start tossing money at you. Then I start
applying for jobs and find out that half the clowns working behind the
service counter at CompUSA are MCSEs! Is it all it's cracked up to be?
You are joking, right? It was an incredible waste of time and money. I
will not be taking anymore MS certs on my own. If an employer wants me
to have more letters after my name he can pay for it.

Whatwould you like us to do? Write to Microsoft? Done that. Talk with
their people? We did that too. I am not worried about the value of my
so-called certs. Don't you get it? I have written them off.

The only way that we, the professionals, will be able to turn it around
will be to discourage people from participating in such a fundamentally
flawed process. Stop people from even thinking about getting certified.

Yup, we can take on the cheats, gunmen, whatever. But until MS cleans up
it's testing procedures, y'all are tilting at windmills. Sorry.
Microsoft could shut down the cheating overnight, if they had any desire
to. Simply by the steps outlined in this thread. But heck, there's other
things they could be doing as well.

They don't want to.

It's that simple.

>>

> I've come to NOT expect anything from anyone anymore. It's a worthless
> waste of my time to expect someone else to do something that I can do
> myself. In this case, maybe I can, maybe I can't. If I yell, 'uncle'
> then you'll know I've given up.
>


No, don't give up. Keep tilting at that damb windmill. Fer Ghodsakes,
you might be right, and I might be wrong. If I'm wrong about Microsoft,
and they are merely too venal to clean up the cert process, you will
have done the industry a huge service by convincing them to behave
responsibly.


> If they want Top Techs, yes, why not? We all know that MCP, in and of
> itself, is virtually meaningless. Only when combined with other MCP
> exams do the certs begin to have meaning. Unfortunately, as you've
> stated, an overabundance of even those certs (MCSE, CCNP, etc.) are
> killing the value. You can thank the gunmen for those, and they are
> being taken care of (the gunmen and the cheaters).
>


Overabundance is not 'killing' the value. It has 'killed' the value.
Period. Remember what MCSE stands for? How many MCSEs do you think there
are out there that are qualified Systems Engineers? How many MCSAs do
you think there are that could walk into any company and fill a
Sysadmin's chair?
>>

> Instead, why don't we take the opportunity to help shape the program
> into what it should be? What does complaining about it do? I've learnt a
> lot in the time that I've been here, but one thing I've known all along
> is that b!tching about it doesn't work. It doesn't get your voice heard
> any faster than the people in the next newsgroup, in fact, the people
> that should be listening closed the doors long ago.


Nope, b!tching about it does no good, other than to let off some steam.
We got sucked in once by Microsofties claiming to want our opinions on
'shaping the program'. Maybe this time will be different, but I doubt
it. They know exactly what they are doing, bro. What opportunity are you
referring to? You're right, they closed the doors long ago.

That's it. Venting over. We now return y'all to your regularly scheduled
very important stuff. Please disregard all above. I'm putting the
soapbox away for another year or so.

--
JaR
MCP, MCP, MCP, MCP, MCSA
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TheITGirl
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      04-03-2007

"FrisbeeŽ" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> "Kline Sphere" <.@> wrote in message
> news:(E-Mail Removed)...

<snip>
>> i wish Laura was here to join in the debate.......

>
> I had no idea you were into S&M.
>

"Kline Sphere" <.@> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> i wish Laura was here to join in the debate.......
>
> Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3


I'm not Laura I'm afraid (nor am I into S&M!); will an IT Girl do?

Seriously, if MS can't (or won't) do anything about the problem, then we
need to scream and shout about it to make sure that employers and
recruitment consultants (many of whom are terminally stupid) are aware of it
and actually educate them into checking out the credentials of a candidate
who purports to be certified.

One of our offices in the UK recently fired one of its senior IT managers -
this guy once asked a colleague of mine how to connect to a shared folder on
one of the servers and was told by my surprised colleague to go Start > Run
and type the UNC path to the folder. He then proceeded to type "U-N-C" into
the Run dialog box until my colleague explained to him what the UNC was.

The problem then gets compounded, as people like this blag their way into
senior positions, and then deliberately recruit even more useless underlings
to ensure their incompetence doesn't get discovered. And so it goes on.

I've lost count of the number of useless IT professionals I've come into
contact with over the years. This was a factor, albeit a minor one, in my
decision to change career and move into IT.

Perhaps if more employers imposed technical tests on candidates and checked
out their certifications instead of believing whatever BS they come out with
at interview, the cheaters and incompetents would not be able to take jobs
off genuinely skilled people, whose certifications were come by honestly.

IT Girl MCDST


 
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FrisbeeŽ
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      04-03-2007
"Kline Sphere" <.@> wrote in message
news(E-Mail Removed)...
> >I get enough grief for
>>belonging to a tongue-in-cheek group already.

>
> is that just from the b0sses or from Mrs Frisbee as well?


Mostly the latter.


 
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