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Yes, the 'fix' worked here for something like five wonderful days, too, then
became inconsistent again - but John, some other post you made about warnings/errors reported in event viewer - regarding DCOM, if I recall, made me rummage about in there and I had a warning that the system couldn't send an administrative alert because of something connected with my page-file - so I turned off the 'Send Administrative Alert'option in 'Startup and Recovery' tab in the 'System' Control Panel applet. Now, I did something else too that I can't remember, but I can try and back-trace my actions if it seems worthwhile. For some days now, the machine is turning off, with at least decreased inconsistency. I wasn't looking for this happening so I cannot estimate for the efficiency percentage. If your setup doesn't rely on the admin alert, you might check it out. Perhaps we are cirkling in on that 'mother'? Tony. . . "John Barnes" <> wrote in message news:uImr8%23H%... > The fix apparently work for some and not others. Great find for those it > works for. In my case the problem persists, unless I stop it before I > shut down. > > > "J. Eric Durbin" <> wrote in message > news:... >> On Sat, 3 Dec 2005 17:39:04 -0800, "John Barnes" <> >> wrote: >> >>>Why not use Avast - free and works. Just causes a shutdown problem on a >>>few >>>machines. >> >> [Sorry: I know top posting is the accepted standard in this newsgroup >> but it just goes against everything I believe is right, proper, and >> good, ;=>] >> >> I recall that "Don" posted back in October a possible fix for the >> Avast shutdown problem, which involved swiching to classic view. >> >> http://groups.google.com/group/micro...e=source&hl=en >> >> >>>"Rob Wilkens" <> wrote in message >>>news:e0dmSGH%. .. >>>> That wasn't in my options below  Well, not the compatible eTrust>>>> anyway. >>>> >>>> I mention my options are limitted, you see, because I'm on what most >>>> people would refer to as a "fixed income" (welfare-like-state) and I >>>> have >>>> literally $200 in my bank account to last until the 21st, and I know >>>> between now and then I have a car insurance payment coming up ($100 or >>>> so), plus it is christmas. >>>> >>>> -Rob >>>> >>>> "Andre Da Costa [Extended64]" <> wrote in message >>>> news:OgSaZbG%... >>>>> eTrust. >>>>> -- >>>>> Andre >>>>> Extended64 | http://www.extended64.com >>>>> Blog | http://www.extended64.com/blogs/andre >>>>> http://spaces.msn.com/members/adacosta >>>>> FAQ for MS AntiSpy >>>>> http://www.geocities.com/marfer_mvp/FAQ_MSantispy.htm >>>>> >>>>> "Rob Wilkens" <> wrote in message >>>>> news:eTFZ0PF%... >>>>>> You're right, it's not a bug it's poor design. >>>>>> >>>>>> It worked right in Win32 versions. >>>>>> >>>>>> In fact, it's working in Win64 version too now. Here's the deal -- >>>>>> when >>>>>> I shut down the computers the day I posted the message, there were >>>>>> two >>>>>> end task windows for a program called "shouldn't see me" or something >>>>>> like that . Boy I hope that's not a virus, but I suspect that >>>>>> would >>>>>> be par for the course. >>>>>> >>>>>> OK: >>>>>> My options for antivirus software: >>>>>> -Installed: eTrust EZ Antivirus >>>>>> -Available through MSN: McAfee Antivirus >>>>>> -Through AOL: Security and Safety Center powered by McAfee >>>>>> (and that reminds me, never installed that AOL crap on this >>>>>> machine, I'm afraid) >>>>>> -Otherwise - some free alternative >>>>>> >>>>>> If it is or might be a virus, which do i try? >>>>>> >>>>>> -Rob >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> "Tony Sperling" <> wrote in message >>>>>> news:... >>>>>>> Not everything that you don't like, in software is a bug. This is >>>>>>> normal, and sometimes aggravating, behaviour - events in the active >>>>>>> folder do not auto-update, if you have the filemanager 'Microsoft >>>>>>> Explorer' open when you download and keep the folder high-lighted to >>>>>>> which you download you should see the stuff appearing in the file >>>>>>> window, if not press <F5>. >>>>>>> IE too knows about this trick, but FF might not! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Also, keeping more than a handfull of Icons on your desktop, eats >>>>>>> resources and slows down your system - I too recommend, a dedicated >>>>>>> download directory. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Tony. . . >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "Rob Wilkens" <> wrote in message >>>>>>> news:u$... >>>>>>>> Tonight I started using Mozilla Firefox to download some files >>>>>>>> -Print Server Administrator (for a network print server I have) and >>>>>>>> firmware >>>>>>>> -Real Alternative >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Wellllllllllllllll.... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> For some reason the files are not showing up on the desktop after I >>>>>>>> download them. They're there, but you can't see them. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> How do I know they're there you ask? Because when I click on the >>>>>>>> desktop FOLDER (right from firefox even) you can see the files >>>>>>>> alongside the rest of the icons that are already on the desktop. >>>>>>>> AND >>>>>>>> if I try to move the files from the desktop folder to the desktop, >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> get an "already there" error. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Oh, here it is -- If i right click on the desktop and select >>>>>>>> REFRESH >>>>>>>> they show up. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> But why do I have to click Refresh, is this what we call a bug in >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> operating system or shell? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -Rob >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> > > |
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Did not on my machine.
"Piers James" <> wrote in message news:u4nX3yM%... > there is a new version ov avast now. I never had the shutdown problem, so > I don't know if it fixes it, but it might. > > > "John Barnes" <> wrote in message > news:Oo7SFOH%... >> Why not use Avast - free and works. Just causes a shutdown problem on a >> few machines. >> >> >> "Rob Wilkens" <> wrote in message >> news:e0dmSGH%... >>> That wasn't in my options below Well, not the compatible eTrust >>> anyway. >>> >>> I mention my options are limitted, you see, because I'm on what most >>> people would refer to as a "fixed income" (welfare-like-state) and I >>> have literally $200 in my bank account to last until the 21st, and I >>> know between now and then I have a car insurance payment coming up ($100 >>> or so), plus it is christmas. >>> >>> -Rob >>> >>> "Andre Da Costa [Extended64]" <> wrote in message >>> news:OgSaZbG%... >>>> eTrust. >>>> -- >>>> Andre >>>> Extended64 | http://www.extended64.com >>>> Blog | http://www.extended64.com/blogs/andre >>>> http://spaces.msn.com/members/adacosta >>>> FAQ for MS AntiSpy >>>> http://www.geocities.com/marfer_mvp/FAQ_MSantispy.htm >>>> >>>> "Rob Wilkens" <> wrote in message >>>> news:eTFZ0PF%... >>>>> You're right, it's not a bug it's poor design. >>>>> >>>>> It worked right in Win32 versions. >>>>> >>>>> In fact, it's working in Win64 version too now. Here's the deal -- >>>>> when I shut down the computers the day I posted the message, there >>>>> were two end task windows for a program called "shouldn't see me" or >>>>> something like that . Boy I hope that's not a virus, but I suspect >>>>> that would be par for the course. >>>>> >>>>> OK: >>>>> My options for antivirus software: >>>>> -Installed: eTrust EZ Antivirus >>>>> -Available through MSN: McAfee Antivirus >>>>> -Through AOL: Security and Safety Center powered by McAfee >>>>> (and that reminds me, never installed that AOL crap on this >>>>> machine, I'm afraid) >>>>> -Otherwise - some free alternative >>>>> >>>>> If it is or might be a virus, which do i try? >>>>> >>>>> -Rob >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> "Tony Sperling" <> wrote in message >>>>> news:... >>>>>> Not everything that you don't like, in software is a bug. This is >>>>>> normal, and sometimes aggravating, behaviour - events in the active >>>>>> folder do not auto-update, if you have the filemanager 'Microsoft >>>>>> Explorer' open when you download and keep the folder high-lighted to >>>>>> which you download you should see the stuff appearing in the file >>>>>> window, if not press <F5>. >>>>>> IE too knows about this trick, but FF might not! >>>>>> >>>>>> Also, keeping more than a handfull of Icons on your desktop, eats >>>>>> resources and slows down your system - I too recommend, a dedicated >>>>>> download directory. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Tony. . . >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> "Rob Wilkens" <> wrote in message >>>>>> news:u$... >>>>>>> Tonight I started using Mozilla Firefox to download some files >>>>>>> -Print Server Administrator (for a network print server I have) and >>>>>>> firmware >>>>>>> -Real Alternative >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Wellllllllllllllll.... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For some reason the files are not showing up on the desktop after I >>>>>>> download them. They're there, but you can't see them. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> How do I know they're there you ask? Because when I click on the >>>>>>> desktop FOLDER (right from firefox even) you can see the files >>>>>>> alongside the rest of the icons that are already on the desktop. >>>>>>> AND if I try to move the files from the desktop folder to the >>>>>>> desktop, I get an "already there" error. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Oh, here it is -- If i right click on the desktop and select REFRESH >>>>>>> they show up. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But why do I have to click Refresh, is this what we call a bug in >>>>>>> the operating system or shell? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -Rob >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > > |
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Those who are running Avast! get the updates on-line atomatically, and the
problem has been reported for years according to John, so we shouldn't expect a fix from that direction - they have a professional version that pays their bread and I am quite happy that they do it at all. The rest is up to me. Tony. . . "Piers James" <> wrote in message news:u4nX3yM%... > there is a new version ov avast now. I never had the shutdown problem, so > I don't know if it fixes it, but it might. > > > "John Barnes" <> wrote in message > news:Oo7SFOH%... >> Why not use Avast - free and works. Just causes a shutdown problem on a >> few machines. >> >> >> "Rob Wilkens" <> wrote in message >> news:e0dmSGH%... >>> That wasn't in my options below Well, not the compatible eTrust >>> anyway. >>> >>> I mention my options are limitted, you see, because I'm on what most >>> people would refer to as a "fixed income" (welfare-like-state) and I >>> have literally $200 in my bank account to last until the 21st, and I >>> know between now and then I have a car insurance payment coming up ($100 >>> or so), plus it is christmas. >>> >>> -Rob >>> >>> "Andre Da Costa [Extended64]" <> wrote in message >>> news:OgSaZbG%... >>>> eTrust. >>>> -- >>>> Andre >>>> Extended64 | http://www.extended64.com >>>> Blog | http://www.extended64.com/blogs/andre >>>> http://spaces.msn.com/members/adacosta >>>> FAQ for MS AntiSpy >>>> http://www.geocities.com/marfer_mvp/FAQ_MSantispy.htm >>>> >>>> "Rob Wilkens" <> wrote in message >>>> news:eTFZ0PF%... >>>>> You're right, it's not a bug it's poor design. >>>>> >>>>> It worked right in Win32 versions. >>>>> >>>>> In fact, it's working in Win64 version too now. Here's the deal -- >>>>> when I shut down the computers the day I posted the message, there >>>>> were two end task windows for a program called "shouldn't see me" or >>>>> something like that . Boy I hope that's not a virus, but I suspect >>>>> that would be par for the course. >>>>> >>>>> OK: >>>>> My options for antivirus software: >>>>> -Installed: eTrust EZ Antivirus >>>>> -Available through MSN: McAfee Antivirus >>>>> -Through AOL: Security and Safety Center powered by McAfee >>>>> (and that reminds me, never installed that AOL crap on this >>>>> machine, I'm afraid) >>>>> -Otherwise - some free alternative >>>>> >>>>> If it is or might be a virus, which do i try? >>>>> >>>>> -Rob >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> "Tony Sperling" <> wrote in message >>>>> news:... >>>>>> Not everything that you don't like, in software is a bug. This is >>>>>> normal, and sometimes aggravating, behaviour - events in the active >>>>>> folder do not auto-update, if you have the filemanager 'Microsoft >>>>>> Explorer' open when you download and keep the folder high-lighted to >>>>>> which you download you should see the stuff appearing in the file >>>>>> window, if not press <F5>. >>>>>> IE too knows about this trick, but FF might not! >>>>>> >>>>>> Also, keeping more than a handfull of Icons on your desktop, eats >>>>>> resources and slows down your system - I too recommend, a dedicated >>>>>> download directory. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Tony. . . >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> "Rob Wilkens" <> wrote in message >>>>>> news:u$... >>>>>>> Tonight I started using Mozilla Firefox to download some files >>>>>>> -Print Server Administrator (for a network print server I have) and >>>>>>> firmware >>>>>>> -Real Alternative >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Wellllllllllllllll.... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For some reason the files are not showing up on the desktop after I >>>>>>> download them. They're there, but you can't see them. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> How do I know they're there you ask? Because when I click on the >>>>>>> desktop FOLDER (right from firefox even) you can see the files >>>>>>> alongside the rest of the icons that are already on the desktop. >>>>>>> AND if I try to move the files from the desktop folder to the >>>>>>> desktop, I get an "already there" error. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Oh, here it is -- If i right click on the desktop and select REFRESH >>>>>>> they show up. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But why do I have to click Refresh, is this what we call a bug in >>>>>>> the operating system or shell? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -Rob >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > > |
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right to the point"Tony Sperling" <> wrote in message news:OqEO$3N%... > Those who are running Avast! get the updates on-line atomatically, and the > problem has been reported for years according to John, so we shouldn't > expect a fix from that direction - they have a professional version that > pays their bread and I am quite happy that they do it at all. The rest is > up to me. > > Tony. . . > > > "Piers James" <> wrote in message > news:u4nX3yM%... >> there is a new version ov avast now. I never had the shutdown problem, so >> I don't know if it fixes it, but it might. >> >> >> "John Barnes" <> wrote in message >> news:Oo7SFOH%... >>> Why not use Avast - free and works. Just causes a shutdown problem on a >>> few machines. >>> >>> >>> "Rob Wilkens" <> wrote in message >>> news:e0dmSGH%... >>>> That wasn't in my options below Well, not the compatible eTrust >>>> anyway. >>>> >>>> I mention my options are limitted, you see, because I'm on what most >>>> people would refer to as a "fixed income" (welfare-like-state) and I >>>> have literally $200 in my bank account to last until the 21st, and I >>>> know between now and then I have a car insurance payment coming up >>>> ($100 or so), plus it is christmas. >>>> >>>> -Rob >>>> >>>> "Andre Da Costa [Extended64]" <> wrote in message >>>> news:OgSaZbG%... >>>>> eTrust. >>>>> -- >>>>> Andre >>>>> Extended64 | http://www.extended64.com >>>>> Blog | http://www.extended64.com/blogs/andre >>>>> http://spaces.msn.com/members/adacosta >>>>> FAQ for MS AntiSpy >>>>> http://www.geocities.com/marfer_mvp/FAQ_MSantispy.htm >>>>> >>>>> "Rob Wilkens" <> wrote in message >>>>> news:eTFZ0PF%... >>>>>> You're right, it's not a bug it's poor design. >>>>>> >>>>>> It worked right in Win32 versions. >>>>>> >>>>>> In fact, it's working in Win64 version too now. Here's the deal -- >>>>>> when I shut down the computers the day I posted the message, there >>>>>> were two end task windows for a program called "shouldn't see me" or >>>>>> something like that . Boy I hope that's not a virus, but I >>>>>> suspect that would be par for the course. >>>>>> >>>>>> OK: >>>>>> My options for antivirus software: >>>>>> -Installed: eTrust EZ Antivirus >>>>>> -Available through MSN: McAfee Antivirus >>>>>> -Through AOL: Security and Safety Center powered by McAfee >>>>>> (and that reminds me, never installed that AOL crap on this >>>>>> machine, I'm afraid) >>>>>> -Otherwise - some free alternative >>>>>> >>>>>> If it is or might be a virus, which do i try? >>>>>> >>>>>> -Rob >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> "Tony Sperling" <> wrote in message >>>>>> news:... >>>>>>> Not everything that you don't like, in software is a bug. This is >>>>>>> normal, and sometimes aggravating, behaviour - events in the active >>>>>>> folder do not auto-update, if you have the filemanager 'Microsoft >>>>>>> Explorer' open when you download and keep the folder high-lighted to >>>>>>> which you download you should see the stuff appearing in the file >>>>>>> window, if not press <F5>. >>>>>>> IE too knows about this trick, but FF might not! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Also, keeping more than a handfull of Icons on your desktop, eats >>>>>>> resources and slows down your system - I too recommend, a dedicated >>>>>>> download directory. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Tony. . . >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "Rob Wilkens" <> wrote in message >>>>>>> news:u$... >>>>>>>> Tonight I started using Mozilla Firefox to download some files >>>>>>>> -Print Server Administrator (for a network print server I have) and >>>>>>>> firmware >>>>>>>> -Real Alternative >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Wellllllllllllllll.... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> For some reason the files are not showing up on the desktop after I >>>>>>>> download them. They're there, but you can't see them. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> How do I know they're there you ask? Because when I click on the >>>>>>>> desktop FOLDER (right from firefox even) you can see the files >>>>>>>> alongside the rest of the icons that are already on the desktop. >>>>>>>> AND if I try to move the files from the desktop folder to the >>>>>>>> desktop, I get an "already there" error. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Oh, here it is -- If i right click on the desktop and select >>>>>>>> REFRESH they show up. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> But why do I have to click Refresh, is this what we call a bug in >>>>>>>> the operating system or shell? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -Rob >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > > |
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Thanks, but...
I guess I'll avoid avast... Last thing I want is a virus scanner that acts like a virus... -Rob "Tony Sperling" <> wrote in message news:OTwxAnN%... > Yes, the 'fix' worked here for something like five wonderful days, too, > then became inconsistent again - but John, some other post you made about > warnings/errors reported in event viewer - regarding DCOM, if I recall, > made me rummage about in there and I had a warning that the system > couldn't send an administrative alert because of something connected with > my page-file - so I turned off the 'Send Administrative Alert'option in > 'Startup and Recovery' tab in the 'System' Control Panel applet. Now, I > did something else too that I can't remember, but I can try and back-trace > my actions if it seems worthwhile. > > For some days now, the machine is turning off, with at least decreased > inconsistency. I wasn't looking for this happening so I cannot estimate > for the efficiency percentage. If your setup doesn't rely on the admin > alert, you might check it out. Perhaps we are cirkling in on that > 'mother'? > > > Tony. . . > > > "John Barnes" <> wrote in message > news:uImr8%23H%... >> The fix apparently work for some and not others. Great find for those it >> works for. In my case the problem persists, unless I stop it before I >> shut down. >> >> >> "J. Eric Durbin" <> wrote in message >> news:... >>> On Sat, 3 Dec 2005 17:39:04 -0800, "John Barnes" <> >>> wrote: >>> >>>>Why not use Avast - free and works. Just causes a shutdown problem on a >>>>few >>>>machines. >>> >>> [Sorry: I know top posting is the accepted standard in this newsgroup >>> but it just goes against everything I believe is right, proper, and >>> good, ;=>] >>> >>> I recall that "Don" posted back in October a possible fix for the >>> Avast shutdown problem, which involved swiching to classic view. >>> >>> http://groups.google.com/group/micro...e=source&hl=en >>> >>> >>>>"Rob Wilkens" <> wrote in message >>>>news:e0dmSGH%.. . >>>>> That wasn't in my options below Well, not the compatible eTrust>>>>> anyway. >>>>> >>>>> I mention my options are limitted, you see, because I'm on what most >>>>> people would refer to as a "fixed income" (welfare-like-state) and I >>>>> have >>>>> literally $200 in my bank account to last until the 21st, and I know >>>>> between now and then I have a car insurance payment coming up ($100 or >>>>> so), plus it is christmas. >>>>> >>>>> -Rob >>>>> >>>>> "Andre Da Costa [Extended64]" <> wrote in message >>>>> news:OgSaZbG%... >>>>>> eTrust. >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Andre >>>>>> Extended64 | http://www.extended64.com >>>>>> Blog | http://www.extended64.com/blogs/andre >>>>>> http://spaces.msn.com/members/adacosta >>>>>> FAQ for MS AntiSpy >>>>>> http://www.geocities.com/marfer_mvp/FAQ_MSantispy.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> "Rob Wilkens" <> wrote in message >>>>>> news:eTFZ0PF%... >>>>>>> You're right, it's not a bug it's poor design. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It worked right in Win32 versions. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In fact, it's working in Win64 version too now. Here's the deal -- >>>>>>> when >>>>>>> I shut down the computers the day I posted the message, there were >>>>>>> two >>>>>>> end task windows for a program called "shouldn't see me" or >>>>>>> something >>>>>>> like that . Boy I hope that's not a virus, but I suspect that >>>>>>> would >>>>>>> be par for the course. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> OK: >>>>>>> My options for antivirus software: >>>>>>> -Installed: eTrust EZ Antivirus >>>>>>> -Available through MSN: McAfee Antivirus >>>>>>> -Through AOL: Security and Safety Center powered by McAfee >>>>>>> (and that reminds me, never installed that AOL crap on this >>>>>>> machine, I'm afraid) >>>>>>> -Otherwise - some free alternative >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If it is or might be a virus, which do i try? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -Rob >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "Tony Sperling" <> wrote in message >>>>>>> news:... >>>>>>>> Not everything that you don't like, in software is a bug. This is >>>>>>>> normal, and sometimes aggravating, behaviour - events in the active >>>>>>>> folder do not auto-update, if you have the filemanager 'Microsoft >>>>>>>> Explorer' open when you download and keep the folder high-lighted >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> which you download you should see the stuff appearing in the file >>>>>>>> window, if not press <F5>. >>>>>>>> IE too knows about this trick, but FF might not! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Also, keeping more than a handfull of Icons on your desktop, eats >>>>>>>> resources and slows down your system - I too recommend, a dedicated >>>>>>>> download directory. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Tony. . . >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "Rob Wilkens" <> wrote in message >>>>>>>> news:u$... >>>>>>>>> Tonight I started using Mozilla Firefox to download some files >>>>>>>>> -Print Server Administrator (for a network print server I have) >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> firmware >>>>>>>>> -Real Alternative >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Wellllllllllllllll.... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> For some reason the files are not showing up on the desktop after >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> download them. They're there, but you can't see them. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> How do I know they're there you ask? Because when I click on the >>>>>>>>> desktop FOLDER (right from firefox even) you can see the files >>>>>>>>> alongside the rest of the icons that are already on the desktop. >>>>>>>>> AND >>>>>>>>> if I try to move the files from the desktop folder to the desktop, >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> get an "already there" error. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Oh, here it is -- If i right click on the desktop and select >>>>>>>>> REFRESH >>>>>>>>> they show up. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> But why do I have to click Refresh, is this what we call a bug in >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> operating system or shell? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -Rob >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >> > > |
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Please, In no way does it act like a virus! And if you haven't tried it, no
way to tell what you really would think. There's a couple of happy users here (with the problem) and several without any problem. But we would all love to kiss those ramifications a hearty good-bye, naturally. But there are alternatives that comes with recommendations. You'll find something you like, I'm sure. Tony. . . "Rob Wilkens" <> wrote in message news:egShSuS%... > Thanks, but... > > I guess I'll avoid avast... Last thing I want is a virus scanner that acts > like a virus... > > -Rob > > "Tony Sperling" <> wrote in message > news:OTwxAnN%... > > Yes, the 'fix' worked here for something like five wonderful days, too, > > then became inconsistent again - but John, some other post you made about > > warnings/errors reported in event viewer - regarding DCOM, if I recall, > > made me rummage about in there and I had a warning that the system > > couldn't send an administrative alert because of something connected with > > my page-file - so I turned off the 'Send Administrative Alert'option in > > 'Startup and Recovery' tab in the 'System' Control Panel applet. Now, I > > did something else too that I can't remember, but I can try and back-trace > > my actions if it seems worthwhile. > > > > For some days now, the machine is turning off, with at least decreased > > inconsistency. I wasn't looking for this happening so I cannot estimate > > for the efficiency percentage. If your setup doesn't rely on the admin > > alert, you might check it out. Perhaps we are cirkling in on that > > 'mother'? > > > > > > Tony. . . > > > > > > "John Barnes" <> wrote in message > > news:uImr8%23H%... > >> The fix apparently work for some and not others. Great find for those it > >> works for. In my case the problem persists, unless I stop it before I > >> shut down. > >> > >> > >> "J. Eric Durbin" <> wrote in message > >> news:... > >>> On Sat, 3 Dec 2005 17:39:04 -0800, "John Barnes" <> > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>>Why not use Avast - free and works. Just causes a shutdown problem on a > >>>>few > >>>>machines. > >>> > >>> [Sorry: I know top posting is the accepted standard in this newsgroup > >>> but it just goes against everything I believe is right, proper, and > >>> good, ;=>] > >>> > >>> I recall that "Don" posted back in October a possible fix for the > >>> Avast shutdown problem, which involved swiching to classic view. > >>> > >>> http://groups.google.com/group/micro...e=source&hl=en > >>> > >>> > >>>>"Rob Wilkens" <> wrote in message > >>>>news:e0dmSGH%.. . > >>>>> That wasn't in my options below Well, not the compatible eTrust> >>>>> anyway. > >>>>> > >>>>> I mention my options are limitted, you see, because I'm on what most > >>>>> people would refer to as a "fixed income" (welfare-like-state) and I > >>>>> have > >>>>> literally $200 in my bank account to last until the 21st, and I know > >>>>> between now and then I have a car insurance payment coming up ($100 or > >>>>> so), plus it is christmas. > >>>>> > >>>>> -Rob > >>>>> > >>>>> "Andre Da Costa [Extended64]" <> wrote in message > >>>>> news:OgSaZbG%... > >>>>>> eTrust. > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> Andre > >>>>>> Extended64 | http://www.extended64.com > >>>>>> Blog | http://www.extended64.com/blogs/andre > >>>>>> http://spaces.msn.com/members/adacosta > >>>>>> FAQ for MS AntiSpy > >>>>>> http://www.geocities.com/marfer_mvp/FAQ_MSantispy.htm > >>>>>> > >>>>>> "Rob Wilkens" <> wrote in message > >>>>>> news:eTFZ0PF%... > >>>>>>> You're right, it's not a bug it's poor design. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> It worked right in Win32 versions. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> In fact, it's working in Win64 version too now. Here's the deal -- > >>>>>>> when > >>>>>>> I shut down the computers the day I posted the message, there were > >>>>>>> two > >>>>>>> end task windows for a program called "shouldn't see me" or > >>>>>>> something > >>>>>>> like that . Boy I hope that's not a virus, but I suspect that> >>>>>>> would > >>>>>>> be par for the course. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> OK: > >>>>>>> My options for antivirus software: > >>>>>>> -Installed: eTrust EZ Antivirus > >>>>>>> -Available through MSN: McAfee Antivirus > >>>>>>> -Through AOL: Security and Safety Center powered by McAfee > >>>>>>> (and that reminds me, never installed that AOL crap on this > >>>>>>> machine, I'm afraid) > >>>>>>> -Otherwise - some free alternative > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> If it is or might be a virus, which do i try? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -Rob > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> "Tony Sperling" <> wrote in message > >>>>>>> news:... > >>>>>>>> Not everything that you don't like, in software is a bug. This is > >>>>>>>> normal, and sometimes aggravating, behaviour - events in the active > >>>>>>>> folder do not auto-update, if you have the filemanager 'Microsoft > >>>>>>>> Explorer' open when you download and keep the folder high-lighted > >>>>>>>> to > >>>>>>>> which you download you should see the stuff appearing in the file > >>>>>>>> window, if not press <F5>. > >>>>>>>> IE too knows about this trick, but FF might not! > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Also, keeping more than a handfull of Icons on your desktop, eats > >>>>>>>> resources and slows down your system - I too recommend, a dedicated > >>>>>>>> download directory. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Tony. . . > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> "Rob Wilkens" <> wrote in message > >>>>>>>> news:u$... > >>>>>>>>> Tonight I started using Mozilla Firefox to download some files > >>>>>>>>> -Print Server Administrator (for a network print server I have) > >>>>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>>> firmware > >>>>>>>>> -Real Alternative > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Wellllllllllllllll.... > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> For some reason the files are not showing up on the desktop after > >>>>>>>>> I > >>>>>>>>> download them. They're there, but you can't see them. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> How do I know they're there you ask? Because when I click on the > >>>>>>>>> desktop FOLDER (right from firefox even) you can see the files > >>>>>>>>> alongside the rest of the icons that are already on the desktop. > >>>>>>>>> AND > >>>>>>>>> if I try to move the files from the desktop folder to the desktop, > >>>>>>>>> I > >>>>>>>>> get an "already there" error. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Oh, here it is -- If i right click on the desktop and select > >>>>>>>>> REFRESH > >>>>>>>>> they show up. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> But why do I have to click Refresh, is this what we call a bug in > >>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>> operating system or shell? > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> -Rob > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > >> > > > > > > |
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I went ahead when I saw the link posted -- and so far, i'm happy.
Just finished a full scan (33gig on this disk) and except for a few files which it claimed it "could not scan because archive is password protected" all came up clean. I think I'll like it. -rob "Tony Sperling" <> wrote in message news:e3J$hAT%... > Please, In no way does it act like a virus! And if you haven't tried it, > no > way to tell what you really would think. There's a couple of happy users > here (with the problem) and several without any problem. But we would all > love to kiss those ramifications a hearty good-bye, naturally. > > But there are alternatives that comes with recommendations. You'll find > something you like, I'm sure. > > > Tony. . . > > > "Rob Wilkens" <> wrote in message > news:egShSuS%... >> Thanks, but... >> >> I guess I'll avoid avast... Last thing I want is a virus scanner that > acts >> like a virus... >> >> -Rob >> >> "Tony Sperling" <> wrote in message >> news:OTwxAnN%... >> > Yes, the 'fix' worked here for something like five wonderful days, too, >> > then became inconsistent again - but John, some other post you made > about >> > warnings/errors reported in event viewer - regarding DCOM, if I recall, >> > made me rummage about in there and I had a warning that the system >> > couldn't send an administrative alert because of something connected > with >> > my page-file - so I turned off the 'Send Administrative Alert'option in >> > 'Startup and Recovery' tab in the 'System' Control Panel applet. Now, I >> > did something else too that I can't remember, but I can try and > back-trace >> > my actions if it seems worthwhile. >> > >> > For some days now, the machine is turning off, with at least decreased >> > inconsistency. I wasn't looking for this happening so I cannot estimate >> > for the efficiency percentage. If your setup doesn't rely on the admin >> > alert, you might check it out. Perhaps we are cirkling in on that >> > 'mother'? >> > >> > >> > Tony. . . >> > >> > >> > "John Barnes" <> wrote in message >> > news:uImr8%23H%... >> >> The fix apparently work for some and not others. Great find for those > it >> >> works for. In my case the problem persists, unless I stop it before I >> >> shut down. >> >> >> >> >> >> "J. Eric Durbin" <> wrote in message >> >> news:... >> >>> On Sat, 3 Dec 2005 17:39:04 -0800, "John Barnes" <> >> >>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>>>Why not use Avast - free and works. Just causes a shutdown problem >> >>>>on > a >> >>>>few >> >>>>machines. >> >>> >> >>> [Sorry: I know top posting is the accepted standard in this newsgroup >> >>> but it just goes against everything I believe is right, proper, and >> >>> good, ;=>] >> >>> >> >>> I recall that "Don" posted back in October a possible fix for the >> >>> Avast shutdown problem, which involved swiching to classic view. >> >>> >> >>> > http://groups.google.com/group/micro...e=source&hl=en >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>>"Rob Wilkens" <> wrote in message >> >>>>news:e0dmSGH%.. . >> >>>>> That wasn't in my options below Well, not the compatible >> >>>>> eTrust >> >>>>> anyway. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> I mention my options are limitted, you see, because I'm on what >> >>>>> most >> >>>>> people would refer to as a "fixed income" (welfare-like-state) and >> >>>>> I >> >>>>> have >> >>>>> literally $200 in my bank account to last until the 21st, and I >> >>>>> know >> >>>>> between now and then I have a car insurance payment coming up ($100 > or >> >>>>> so), plus it is christmas. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> -Rob >> >>>>> >> >>>>> "Andre Da Costa [Extended64]" <> wrote in > message >> >>>>> news:OgSaZbG%... >> >>>>>> eTrust. >> >>>>>> -- >> >>>>>> Andre >> >>>>>> Extended64 | http://www.extended64.com >> >>>>>> Blog | http://www.extended64.com/blogs/andre >> >>>>>> http://spaces.msn.com/members/adacosta >> >>>>>> FAQ for MS AntiSpy >> >>>>>> http://www.geocities.com/marfer_mvp/FAQ_MSantispy.htm >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> "Rob Wilkens" <> wrote in message >> >>>>>> news:eTFZ0PF%... >> >>>>>>> You're right, it's not a bug it's poor design. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> It worked right in Win32 versions. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> In fact, it's working in Win64 version too now. Here's the > deal -- >> >>>>>>> when >> >>>>>>> I shut down the computers the day I posted the message, there >> >>>>>>> were >> >>>>>>> two >> >>>>>>> end task windows for a program called "shouldn't see me" or >> >>>>>>> something >> >>>>>>> like that . Boy I hope that's not a virus, but I suspect that>> >>>>>>> would >> >>>>>>> be par for the course. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> OK: >> >>>>>>> My options for antivirus software: >> >>>>>>> -Installed: eTrust EZ Antivirus >> >>>>>>> -Available through MSN: McAfee Antivirus >> >>>>>>> -Through AOL: Security and Safety Center powered by McAfee >> >>>>>>> (and that reminds me, never installed that AOL crap on this >> >>>>>>> machine, I'm afraid) >> >>>>>>> -Otherwise - some free alternative >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> If it is or might be a virus, which do i try? >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> -Rob >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> "Tony Sperling" <> wrote in message >> >>>>>>> news:... >> >>>>>>>> Not everything that you don't like, in software is a bug. This >> >>>>>>>> is >> >>>>>>>> normal, and sometimes aggravating, behaviour - events in the > active >> >>>>>>>> folder do not auto-update, if you have the filemanager >> >>>>>>>> 'Microsoft >> >>>>>>>> Explorer' open when you download and keep the folder >> >>>>>>>> high-lighted >> >>>>>>>> to >> >>>>>>>> which you download you should see the stuff appearing in the >> >>>>>>>> file >> >>>>>>>> window, if not press <F5>. >> >>>>>>>> IE too knows about this trick, but FF might not! >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Also, keeping more than a handfull of Icons on your desktop, >> >>>>>>>> eats >> >>>>>>>> resources and slows down your system - I too recommend, a > dedicated >> >>>>>>>> download directory. >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Tony. . . >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> "Rob Wilkens" <> wrote in message >> >>>>>>>> news:u$... >> >>>>>>>>> Tonight I started using Mozilla Firefox to download some files >> >>>>>>>>> -Print Server Administrator (for a network print server I have) >> >>>>>>>>> and >> >>>>>>>>> firmware >> >>>>>>>>> -Real Alternative >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Wellllllllllllllll.... >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> For some reason the files are not showing up on the desktop > after >> >>>>>>>>> I >> >>>>>>>>> download them. They're there, but you can't see them. >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> How do I know they're there you ask? Because when I click on > the >> >>>>>>>>> desktop FOLDER (right from firefox even) you can see the files >> >>>>>>>>> alongside the rest of the icons that are already on the >> >>>>>>>>> desktop. >> >>>>>>>>> AND >> >>>>>>>>> if I try to move the files from the desktop folder to the > desktop, >> >>>>>>>>> I >> >>>>>>>>> get an "already there" error. >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Oh, here it is -- If i right click on the desktop and select >> >>>>>>>>> REFRESH >> >>>>>>>>> they show up. >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> But why do I have to click Refresh, is this what we call a bug > in >> >>>>>>>>> the >> >>>>>>>>> operating system or shell? >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> -Rob >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> >> > > |
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Welcome, to the 'Club', I'm sure you'll appreciate the frequent updates - 2
to 4 a day, with very few 'in-betweens'. This is what I consider to be 'Visible Interest from Home-base'. Tony. . . "Rob Wilkens" <> wrote in message news:eSYnLnT%... >I went ahead when I saw the link posted -- and so far, i'm happy. > > Just finished a full scan (33gig on this disk) and except for a few files > which it claimed it "could not scan because archive is password protected" > all came up clean. > > I think I'll like it. > > -rob > > > "Tony Sperling" <> wrote in message > news:e3J$hAT%... >> Please, In no way does it act like a virus! And if you haven't tried it, >> no >> way to tell what you really would think. There's a couple of happy users >> here (with the problem) and several without any problem. But we would all >> love to kiss those ramifications a hearty good-bye, naturally. >> >> But there are alternatives that comes with recommendations. You'll find >> something you like, I'm sure. >> >> >> Tony. . . >> >> >> "Rob Wilkens" <> wrote in message >> news:egShSuS%... >>> Thanks, but... >>> >>> I guess I'll avoid avast... Last thing I want is a virus scanner that >> acts >>> like a virus... >>> >>> -Rob >>> >>> "Tony Sperling" <> wrote in message >>> news:OTwxAnN%... >>> > Yes, the 'fix' worked here for something like five wonderful days, >>> > too, >>> > then became inconsistent again - but John, some other post you made >> about >>> > warnings/errors reported in event viewer - regarding DCOM, if I >>> > recall, >>> > made me rummage about in there and I had a warning that the system >>> > couldn't send an administrative alert because of something connected >> with >>> > my page-file - so I turned off the 'Send Administrative Alert'option >>> > in >>> > 'Startup and Recovery' tab in the 'System' Control Panel applet. Now, >>> > I >>> > did something else too that I can't remember, but I can try and >> back-trace >>> > my actions if it seems worthwhile. >>> > >>> > For some days now, the machine is turning off, with at least decreased >>> > inconsistency. I wasn't looking for this happening so I cannot >>> > estimate >>> > for the efficiency percentage. If your setup doesn't rely on the admin >>> > alert, you might check it out. Perhaps we are cirkling in on that >>> > 'mother'? >>> > >>> > >>> > Tony. . . >>> > >>> > >>> > "John Barnes" <> wrote in message >>> > news:uImr8%23H%... >>> >> The fix apparently work for some and not others. Great find for >>> >> those >> it >>> >> works for. In my case the problem persists, unless I stop it before >>> >> I >>> >> shut down. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> "J. Eric Durbin" <> wrote in >>> >> message >>> >> news:... >>> >>> On Sat, 3 Dec 2005 17:39:04 -0800, "John Barnes" <> >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>Why not use Avast - free and works. Just causes a shutdown problem >>> >>>>on >> a >>> >>>>few >>> >>>>machines. >>> >>> >>> >>> [Sorry: I know top posting is the accepted standard in this >>> >>> newsgroup >>> >>> but it just goes against everything I believe is right, proper, and >>> >>> good, ;=>] >>> >>> >>> >>> I recall that "Don" posted back in October a possible fix for the >>> >>> Avast shutdown problem, which involved swiching to classic view. >>> >>> >>> >>> >> http://groups.google.com/group/micro...e=source&hl=en >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>"Rob Wilkens" <> wrote in message >>> >>>>news:e0dmSGH%.. . >>> >>>>> That wasn't in my options below Well, not the compatible >>> >>>>> eTrust >>> >>>>> anyway. >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> I mention my options are limitted, you see, because I'm on what >>> >>>>> most >>> >>>>> people would refer to as a "fixed income" (welfare-like-state) and >>> >>>>> I >>> >>>>> have >>> >>>>> literally $200 in my bank account to last until the 21st, and I >>> >>>>> know >>> >>>>> between now and then I have a car insurance payment coming up >>> >>>>> ($100 >> or >>> >>>>> so), plus it is christmas. >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> -Rob >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> "Andre Da Costa [Extended64]" <> wrote in >> message >>> >>>>> news:OgSaZbG%... >>> >>>>>> eTrust. >>> >>>>>> -- >>> >>>>>> Andre >>> >>>>>> Extended64 | http://www.extended64.com >>> >>>>>> Blog | http://www.extended64.com/blogs/andre >>> >>>>>> http://spaces.msn.com/members/adacosta >>> >>>>>> FAQ for MS AntiSpy >>> >>>>>> http://www.geocities.com/marfer_mvp/FAQ_MSantispy.htm >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> "Rob Wilkens" <> wrote in message >>> >>>>>> news:eTFZ0PF%... >>> >>>>>>> You're right, it's not a bug it's poor design. >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> It worked right in Win32 versions. >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> In fact, it's working in Win64 version too now. Here's the >> deal -- >>> >>>>>>> when >>> >>>>>>> I shut down the computers the day I posted the message, there >>> >>>>>>> were >>> >>>>>>> two >>> >>>>>>> end task windows for a program called "shouldn't see me" or >>> >>>>>>> something >>> >>>>>>> like that . Boy I hope that's not a virus, but I suspect >>> >>>>>>> that >>> >>>>>>> would >>> >>>>>>> be par for the course. >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> OK: >>> >>>>>>> My options for antivirus software: >>> >>>>>>> -Installed: eTrust EZ Antivirus >>> >>>>>>> -Available through MSN: McAfee Antivirus >>> >>>>>>> -Through AOL: Security and Safety Center powered by McAfee >>> >>>>>>> (and that reminds me, never installed that AOL crap on this >>> >>>>>>> machine, I'm afraid) >>> >>>>>>> -Otherwise - some free alternative >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> If it is or might be a virus, which do i try? >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> -Rob >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> "Tony Sperling" <> wrote in message >>> >>>>>>> news:... >>> >>>>>>>> Not everything that you don't like, in software is a bug. This >>> >>>>>>>> is >>> >>>>>>>> normal, and sometimes aggravating, behaviour - events in the >> active >>> >>>>>>>> folder do not auto-update, if you have the filemanager >>> >>>>>>>> 'Microsoft >>> >>>>>>>> Explorer' open when you download and keep the folder >>> >>>>>>>> high-lighted >>> >>>>>>>> to >>> >>>>>>>> which you download you should see the stuff appearing in the >>> >>>>>>>> file >>> >>>>>>>> window, if not press <F5>. >>> >>>>>>>> IE too knows about this trick, but FF might not! >>> >>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> Also, keeping more than a handfull of Icons on your desktop, >>> >>>>>>>> eats >>> >>>>>>>> resources and slows down your system - I too recommend, a >> dedicated >>> >>>>>>>> download directory. >>> >>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> Tony. . . >>> >>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> "Rob Wilkens" <> wrote in message >>> >>>>>>>> news:u$... >>> >>>>>>>>> Tonight I started using Mozilla Firefox to download some files >>> >>>>>>>>> -Print Server Administrator (for a network print server I >>> >>>>>>>>> have) >>> >>>>>>>>> and >>> >>>>>>>>> firmware >>> >>>>>>>>> -Real Alternative >>> >>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> Wellllllllllllllll.... >>> >>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> For some reason the files are not showing up on the desktop >> after >>> >>>>>>>>> I >>> >>>>>>>>> download them. They're there, but you can't see them. >>> >>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> How do I know they're there you ask? Because when I click on >> the >>> >>>>>>>>> desktop FOLDER (right from firefox even) you can see the files >>> >>>>>>>>> alongside the rest of the icons that are already on the >>> >>>>>>>>> desktop. >>> >>>>>>>>> AND >>> >>>>>>>>> if I try to move the files from the desktop folder to the >> desktop, >>> >>>>>>>>> I >>> >>>>>>>>> get an "already there" error. >>> >>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> Oh, here it is -- If i right click on the desktop and select >>> >>>>>>>>> REFRESH >>> >>>>>>>>> they show up. >>> >>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> But why do I have to click Refresh, is this what we call a bug >> in >>> >>>>>>>>> the >>> >>>>>>>>> operating system or shell? >>> >>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> -Rob >>> >>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >> >>> > >>> > >>> >>> >> >> > > |
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