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computer freezing

 
 
Tony Sperling
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      09-12-2005

"David R. Norton" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:%(E-Mail Removed)...
>
> "Tony Sperling" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:eJ%(E-Mail Removed)...
> > Well, David, the reason my interest was triggered,

>

---
>
> Swapping with what? Even with the reduced price of memory I have two and
> only two sticks and they are both in the machine, the only way I have of
> testing is to pull one, see if the remaining stick fails and then remove

it
> and insert the other to see if it will fail.
>

---
Oh, I mean, swap them in their sockets ( 1 to 2 - 2 to 1), although, some
people have only one stick then this method won't work. The thing is,
especially if it is flaky memory, that something triggers the error,
different things access different parts of memory - not least during
start-up, or opening and closing app's. So, swapping the sticks could very
well give you a stable system at no extra cost. Of course, if it is
malfunctioning, there is no cure for that except identifying the component
and try getting a refund.
---
> > A good memory test-suit, I suspect, puts the memory under much higher

> stress

---
>
> Correct if there were such a thing as a "good" memory test. I found no
> errors with the MS test running 12 hours nor did I expect to. The few

very
> nasty memory failures I've encountered require that something be stored in
> the failing position(s) and then NOT ADDRESSED for as long as an hour.

Any
> test that runs and addresses that failing position repeatedly will not

cause
> a failure. <sigh>
>

---
Honestly, David, I have a hard time going into an argument with you on the
issue of memory technology, you are much better informed han I am. But if
you say is true, then that contradicts most of what I have learned about it.
To keep this painfully short - memory are little capacitors - capacitors
leak, that's why RAM is said to be volatile. So before we lose our memory it
has to be updated and within the read/write cycle of this operation nothing
else can access that memory cell. So, anything that makes the charge in the
cell go away within two consecutive r/w cycles can be labeled 'a memory
error', such errors are not enormously rare but can be corrected in most
cases - when they cannot be corrected it IS flagged as a memory error. But
you never can predict how all the little stuff inside the memory pool will
react to these little errors that are not flagged by the memory sub-system.

I did not believe that an error could sit inside a cell for any length of
time and not be detected by a tester. That is shocking news to me. I just
didn't believe your every-day error would be happening consistently enough
to be able to be flagged by the tester when it was not flagged by the memory
sub-system. 'Chaos theory' kind of stuff, you know.

David, I think it would be quite interesting if you would humor an old
geezer and swap those sticks - just for a larf, perhaps. I cannot say I
think it will work, but I've seen it work small wonders enough to say that
it may.
---
> That's why pulling one stick is my remaining option and.... it still might
> be a HD or MB failure.
>

---
yeah, or the power unit?
---
> I expect that, given the amount of time I have available to work on this
> problem, I'll probably still have the bug as long as I have my current
> computer.

---
I know the kind, with me it was a VIA chip set that wouldn't budge with
nVidia, or vice-versa.
---
>
> --
> David R. Norton MVP (shell/user)
> http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed)
>
>
>
>


Tony. . .


 
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David R. Norton MVP
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      09-13-2005
"Tony Sperling" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in:

> Oh, I mean, swap them in their sockets ( 1 to 2 - 2 to 1), although,
> some people have only one stick then this method won't work. The thing
> is, especially if it is flaky memory, that something triggers the error,
> different things access different parts of memory - not least during
> start-up, or opening and closing app's. So, swapping the sticks could
> very well give you a stable system at no extra cost. Of course, if it is
> malfunctioning, there is no cure for that except identifying the
> component and try getting a refund.


I'm trying to avoid the problems of swapping OR removing one stick.
Unfortunately for me, my system is less accessable than it might be so I'd
much prefer to leave a bowl of milk and some cookies on the computer and
hope the computer brownies will do the swap for me. I can't access the
memory w/o moving the printer and laying the case on it's side. It didn't
used to be a problem but as time goes by it's become a very difficult
chore. Heck, I even bankrupted myself to get a flat screen monitor
because I'm no longer able to lift the CRT monitor if it ever needed it...

> I did not believe that an error could sit inside a cell for any length
> of time and not be detected by a tester. That is shocking news to me.


Why should it be? When I started working on computers in 1960 I had a list
of 500 things that were impossible, the list is now down to two and I'm not
sure about one of them anymore. I really don't believe that anything is
impossible where computers are concerned although I'm almost sure, after
years of struggling, that it's impossible for me to run Linux...... but I'm
still trying!

> David, I think it would be quite interesting if you would humor an old
> geezer and swap those sticks - just for a larf, perhaps. I cannot say I
> think it will work, but I've seen it work small wonders enough to say
> that it may.


It might, who knows. When (and if) I open the case I'll consider my options.


--
David R. Norton MVP
<(E-Mail Removed)>
 
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Tony Sperling
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      09-13-2005
Thanks, David.

I find this shocking, because of the leaking capacity of Capacitors (hmm?),
your words in mind, this would mean that testing, on it's own, would
introduce subversion of the memory sub-system and that the corrections it
would be expected to make (part of it's more prominent job) is also,
therefore, subverted - and that this actually mean that testing memory can
never be expected to find an error unless the part is electronically broken,
resulting in consistent failure in the read/write procedure? Doesn't this
imply that memory test software is bypassing the sub-system? Surely, it
shouldn't be doing that?

No?

On the other hand, if you cannot test for 'flaky' memory, then perhaps that
makes sense of the 'swapping' I mentioned. Not that I want to persuade you -
your hunches are certainly as good as, or better than, mine concerning your
own equipment, and I don't want you to break the things that do work for
you, as in the day-to-day organization of things. I've prided myself for
quite some time that I understod machines precisely because 'function is
language' and you have managed to make a dent in that pride. For which I
thank you. . .pride is useless and these things always end up being fruitful
anyway.

So, to everyone else with unstable machinery who has been following this - I
would love some feed-back on the results of your own experiments with
swapping your memory sticks. Perhaps we should end this thread so as not to
loose ourselves, but please do tell us of your experiences.

Finally, this all reminds me of something someone - I think it was one of
your Presidents - said:

"Today, things are, increasingly, like they never were before."

Tony. . .


"David R. Norton MVP" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:Xns96CFDE596FD8Adrnortonyahoocom@127.0.0.1...
> "Tony Sperling" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in:
>
>> Oh, I mean, swap them in their sockets ( 1 to 2 - 2 to 1), although,
>> some people have only one stick then this method won't work. The thing
>> is, especially if it is flaky memory, that something triggers the error,
>> different things access different parts of memory - not least during
>> start-up, or opening and closing app's. So, swapping the sticks could
>> very well give you a stable system at no extra cost. Of course, if it is
>> malfunctioning, there is no cure for that except identifying the
>> component and try getting a refund.

>
> I'm trying to avoid the problems of swapping OR removing one stick.
> Unfortunately for me, my system is less accessable than it might be so I'd
> much prefer to leave a bowl of milk and some cookies on the computer and
> hope the computer brownies will do the swap for me. I can't access the
> memory w/o moving the printer and laying the case on it's side. It didn't
> used to be a problem but as time goes by it's become a very difficult
> chore. Heck, I even bankrupted myself to get a flat screen monitor
> because I'm no longer able to lift the CRT monitor if it ever needed it...
>
>> I did not believe that an error could sit inside a cell for any length
>> of time and not be detected by a tester. That is shocking news to me.

>
> Why should it be? When I started working on computers in 1960 I had a
> list
> of 500 things that were impossible, the list is now down to two and I'm
> not
> sure about one of them anymore. I really don't believe that anything is
> impossible where computers are concerned although I'm almost sure, after
> years of struggling, that it's impossible for me to run Linux...... but
> I'm
> still trying!
>
>> David, I think it would be quite interesting if you would humor an old
>> geezer and swap those sticks - just for a larf, perhaps. I cannot say I
>> think it will work, but I've seen it work small wonders enough to say
>> that it may.

>
> It might, who knows. When (and if) I open the case I'll consider my
> options.
>
>
> --
> David R. Norton MVP
> <(E-Mail Removed)>



 
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=?Utf-8?B?Rmxvcmlhbg==?=
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Posts: n/a
 
      09-14-2005
Just a small thought / addition to this thread. This seems somewhat similar
to my issue in an earlier thread. Please see "Do I need to upgrade to XP
64?" started on 9/9/05.

I took the advice offered and ensured that all my chipset drivers were
installed (CD came with new machine). After that, only the Marvel Ethernet
driver was old.

I have left the older driver and I am stable. It has been only 2-3 days of
stability but that is far better than I have had so far.

Florian
>

 
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David R. Norton MVP
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      09-15-2005
"Florian" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in:

> Just a small thought / addition to this thread. This seems somewhat
> similar to my issue in an earlier thread. Please see "Do I need to
> upgrade to XP 64?" started on 9/9/05.


I may have found the problem, it might have been the harddrive connector.
Time will tell but so far, no freezes.

I use a swappable harddrive and it's been unswapped for a very long time. I
removed it, replaced it and that seems to have cleaned the contacts
sufficiently to solve the problem. Since my other harddrive has expired, I
have no need of swapping and in a couple of days I'll mount this one directly
into the case w/o the drive caddy if the freezes are gone.

Or I could always mount my 250M HD and build a DOS 5.0/Windows 3.1 system...
<G>

--
David R. Norton MVP
<(E-Mail Removed)>

 
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=?Utf-8?B?R29yZXNo?=
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      09-22-2005
Seemed like a good idea, tried this but no luck.
Did get my 3dmark05 score up from 3000 to over 4500. Pity every real game I
try to run freezes. Pity also that according to Futuremarks comparison site,
this is still about 4000 short of what other people get running 32 bit XP on
similar hardware.

"Andre Da Costa" wrote:

> If you are using nVidia chipset upgrade to the latest drivers? Also check
> your device manager to see if all the devices are fully installed and
> functioning properly.
> --
> Andre
> Extended64 | http://www.extended64.com
> Blog | http://www.extended64.com/blogs/andre
> http://spaces.msn.com/members/adacosta
> FAQ for MS AntiSpy http://www.geocities.com/marfer_mvp/FAQ_MSantispy.htm
> "kate" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> > my x64 keeps freezing about twice a day and i have to keep on rebooting
> > it...is anyone else having a similar problem? please help, thanks

>
>

 
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=?Utf-8?B?R29yZXNo?=
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      09-22-2005
Kate,
do you by any chance have a dual core or dual cpu's?


"kate" wrote:

> my x64 keeps freezing about twice a day and i have to keep on rebooting
> it...is anyone else having a similar problem? please help, thanks

 
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