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Surge Protector Question

 
 
bud--
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Posts: n/a
 
      03-26-2007
On Mar 25, 5:37 pm, "w_tom" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
> Which is exactly why a homeowner needs something simpler and that
> actually does provide protection. Earthing must be upgraded to exceed
> post 1990 NEC requirements. No way around that fact. Then one 'whole
> house' protector is installed.

Both of which the OP said were out of the question.

> What will a plug-in protector do? No
> earth ground means ... where is that complex?

The religious belief in earthing again. Plug-in suppressors work by
clamping, not earthing.

>
> What can happen to a pile of desktop papers or the rug behind the
> furniture when something ineffective and grossly undersized is
> installed? Scary pictures of protectors that meet existing standards:

When there are no technical arguments try scare tactics

> http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554
> http://www.westwhitelandfire.com/Art...Protectors.pdf
> http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm
> http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html

For anyone with minimal reading skills the hanford link talks about
"some older model" power strips and specifically references the
revised US - UL standard, effective 1998, that requires a thermal
disconnect as a fix for overheating MOVs. Overheating was fixed in the
US in 1998. w_ can't understand anything that conflicts with his
religious beliefs.

>
> Those scary pictures are current technology plug-in protectors

An outright lie. None of these links say there is any problem with
suppressors under the current UL standard. None of the links even say
the problem suppressors had a UL label.

> A quick visit to Lowes
> or Home Depot well find a 'whole house' protector for less than $50.

I agree with CS - w_ lowballs the cost of effective whole house
protection.


UPSs may or may not have effective surge protection built in. The US-
UL standard for surge suppressors is UL 1449, 2nd edition. Anything
with effective surge suppression should be listed under that standard.
Listing information will be readily available for UPSs and surge
suppressors.

As someone said, if you use a 3-wire to 2-wire adapter, the computer
should be protected by a GFCI. It can be hazardous to you health to
have metal case equipment that was meant to be grounded that is not
grounded. That extends to equipment connected to the computer with a
ground in the connecting cable.

One of the major surge hazards is voltage differences between power
and phone (cable TV, ...) wiring. That is why phone (cable TV,...)
wiring needs to go through a surge suppressor. Unplugging the phone
wire (if it connects to your computer equipment) when not in use
eliminates that hazard.

--
bud--

 
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CS
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Posts: n/a
 
      03-27-2007
"w_tom" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed) oups.com...
> At first, I thought CS was an honest poster. Well, CS wants all to
> believe a 'whole house' protector must cost $200+.


http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...urge+protector

Resulted in this link:

http://www.smarthome.com/4860.html

Whole House Surge Protector $214.99

Feel free to post your link to a $50 unit.

You seem to have skipped over my suggestion that you pay for the upgrades to
the OP's landlord's house, so I'll mention it again. If it's so easy,
cheap, and important, and you really feel making improvements to other
people's property is a logical idea, then you should be happy to do it.
He's using a legit Email address, so just drop him a line, get his address,
and send a check.

Read the rest of your post, better make it a money order.

> He deceives.
> Sufficiently sized 'whole house' protector from Intermatic, GE, and
> Cutler-Hammer are sold in Lowes and Home Depot for less than $50.
> Yes, larger and better protectors do cost $hundreds. But sufficient
> protectors are even sold in Home Depot and Lowes for less than
> $50 ... an honest post. This paragraph repeats what was posted
> previously before CS posted deception.
>
> To define "better solution" ... again:
> 1) Protector that does not require $thousands to install three wire
> receptacles.
>
> 2) Rewiring is required for a plug-in protector or a plug-in UPS;
> necessary for human safety. Rewiring still does not earth for
> transistor safety. Neither 'magic box' claims protection from
> destructive surges even if wall wiring is replaced.


What they claim is irrelevent. If you had even the slightest idea what goes
on inside a UPS, you wouldn't make such stupid claims.

> 3) Protection means earth ground is required. No way around earthing
> that meets and exceeds post 1990 National Electrical Code
> requirements. Reality is that simple. Earthing not just for
> transistor safety. Earthing also required for human safety.
>
> 4) What are household critical electronics during events that create
> surges? Smoke detectors. Kitchen and bathroom GFCIs. To protect
> human life when most needed, these devices also require 'whole house'
> surge protection. A human safety solution that also protects his
> computer on two wire receptacles. That's four times a 'better
> solution'. If CS understood basic electrical concepts, then he knew
> all this. Meanwhile more reasons.
>
> 5) Where does a plug-in protector or UPS even claim to provide
> protection from typically destructive surges. Neither makes that
> claim as demonstrated by spec sheet numbers the CS forgot to read.


Spec sheet numbers? Specs tell you little about what a UPS, or anything
else for that matter, is all about. If you really believe all the fluff and
BS manufacturers lather their advertised specifications with, you have
bigger problems than anybody with two wires in their house.

> Still, manufacturer requires three wire wall receptacles. $thousands
> for 3 wire outlets and it still does not claim to protect?
>
> 6) Telco installs a 'whole house' protector. Why?


Why? How about where? I'm sure you realize anybody reading this can go
outside their house, look at the demarc, and see whether or not the telco
installed any sort of surge protector.

Oh, are you talking about a large PBX? We have one at work, a nice Avaya
Definity, installed by proffesionals. It uses a large, heavy APC UPS for
backup power, plugged right into the wall. No surge protectors in sight.

No, our facility doesn't have surge protection of any kind. Whenever the
power goes hinky, and it does at least twice a month, at least one camera,
sometimes three, gets burned out. They use linear power supplies.
Meanwhile, everything protected by a UPS, as well as computers and other
gear that uses a switching power supply, fires right back up with no
problems.

You can memorize every word of the NEC, although I've noticed you have yet
to mention the 2005 edition, but you just can't beat real world experience.
In fact, you haven't come close.

> Telco "installed
> for free" solution is both inexpensive and effective. Superior
> solution also required by the OP on AC mains.
>
> 7) OP requests a less expensive solution that works on a two wire
> electrical system. Only solution is also the superior solution: a
> 'whole house' protector and earthing. So simple that a caveman can
> purchase it in Lowes and Home Depot - the 'do it yourself' stores.


I know you aren't suggesting this is a 'do it yourself' project.

> CS- you are expected to know simplest technicals before posting.
> Your claim of 'modern' protection inside a 'modern' UPS is totally
> bogus. That silly little transistor inside an inverter will stop
> what three miles of sky could not. CS makes that claim.


You seem stuck on transistors. Nobody claimed a transistor can stop a
voltage spike. Again, you prove your ignorance.

> Meanwhile if
> an inverter protects from surges, then a superior inverter inside all
> computer power supplies already provides 100% protection.


Ignorant. Few PC's have built-in inverters, and those are luggables which
work off mains or 12v vehicle systems.

However, switching power supplies do in fact offer very good protection,
much more than those cheap surge protectors sold by big chain stores.

> Meanwhile,
> the UPS connects comptuer directly to AC mains when not in battery
> backup mode.


Ignorant.

It's called a "Double Conversion" system, which provides a regulated sine
wave to devices connected to it.

Your welcome for the instruction.

> CS has just posted another classic myth. Obvious: CS
> has no idea what is inside a UPS nor even read its numerical specs.
> Had CS read specs, well, it is a same protector circuit inside grocery
> store protectors. But again, CS is expected to learn before posting
> myths. Suddenly a silly little transistor will stop what three miles
> of sky could not? Yes - according to CS who even invents this
> inverter rather than learn how UPSes work.


I invented the inverter? Looks like I've got some royalties coming.

> To the OP: a 'whole house' protector is your only effective
> solution. Consider doing same with a kludge solution. Get a plug-in
> protector of largest joules. Cut its power cord


You have just proven yourself an idiot of the highest degree.

A stranger asks about surge protectors, and you suggest he start cutting
wires on power cords? You truly are a ****ing moron. Thankfully, your poor
grammar and foolish games are pretty obvious, so that it doesn't take an
engineer to see just how full of **** you are.

The very FIRST rule of working with electricity:

If you don't know what your doing, DON'T DO IT!!!

Call me a liar all you like. I've shown the proof. You've babbled. But
when you tell laymen to "kludge" or otherwise go messing around with
dangerous voltages, you not only show your ignorance, you show will
disregard for the safety of those you claim to want to help.

I've known so-called techs who 'kludge' things. Right now I'm working 10 to
14 hours a day replacing 'kludge' with proper workmanship.

Nobody who's worth half a damn does anything which he can call a 'kludge'
with mains voltage wiring.

CS

>as short as possible
> (short wire connections are critical). Plug that protector into an AC
> receptacle attached to breaker box. Make sure computer is powered
> from same 'half' of breaker box as that breaker box receptacle. Some
> protection if the breaker box has a short ('less than 10 foot')
> connection to earth. This kludge attempts what makes a 'whole house'
> protector so effective. Again, the person who learned this stuff many
> decades ago again provides another solution ... and does not
> misrepresent prices to intentionally deceive you.
>
> If CS had introductory electrical knowledge, then what he calls
> "bells and doodads" would be understood. Details provided by CS
> promote plug-in UPS using same myths that also promote HeadOn. No
> numbers. No reasons. No manufacturer specs. A subjective 'its works
> because it is modern' mythology - also called junk science. He now
> claims a silly little transistor will magically stop lightning. When
> they complain why more than 50% of America's engineers are now
> immigrants, well, view CS as a reason.
>
> OP now has a useful solution, a kludge solution, intentional
> deception from CS, and the fundamental concept: "protection is only
> as effective as its earth ground".
>
> On Mar 25, 9:57 pm, "CS" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> ...
>> It's not his house. Who's going to do wiring upgrades on somebody else's
>> property? If this doesn't make sense to you, then I suggest you contact
>> the
>> OP and offer to pay for the upgrades.
>> ...
>>
>> Leviton whole-house surge protector $214.99 + shipping, tax
>> Estimated labor for install $300+
>>
>> Now we're at a minimum of $500 to upgrade somebody else's electrical
>> wiring.
>> ...
>>
>> Define "better solution".
>>
>> I hardly think 'better solution' means spending $500 on a rental
>> property,
>> while running the risk of getting evicted and possibly end up paying for
>> REMOVAL of the upgrade, which in many states is entirely possible.
>>
>> How much is his computer worth? How bad does he need it? What's the
>> quality of the mains feed to the house? Does he have any high power
>> equipment, such as welders?
>>
>> Scary pictures are one thing, but if you don't have the slightest idea
>> what
>> the whole situation is, you aren't even in a position to make a "better
>> solution".
>> ...
>>
>> Seems you could use an update on modern, medium to high end UPS's. In
>> essence, they charge the batteries on mains power, but also run an
>> inveter
>> 100% of the time, so when the mains cut off, you have no interuption of
>> power. This also has the effect or isolating the circuit past the UPS.
>> Since the inverter is regulated, the equipment is safe from any realistic
>> voltage spike through the mains.
>>
>> Oh, and when the OP decides to move, he can take his UPS with him.
>> ...
>>
>> Are you saying every house built in the past 70 years has all the bells
>> and
>> doodads you've mentioned?
>>
>> My house, built in in the 40's, does not, nor did my last house, built in
>> the 60's.

>


 
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w_tom
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      03-27-2007
On Mar 26, 9:41 pm, "CS" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> Resulted in this link:
> http://www.smarthome.com/4860.html
> Whole House Surge Protector $214.99
>
> Feel free to post your link to a $50 unit.


CS does not want to learn. He is an 'expert' and yet does not even
know how electricity works. Posted will be more examples of what he
did not know and his myths.

One 'whole house' protector selling for $200+ means all 'whole
house' protectors costs $200+? If true, then a Monster Cable power
strip protector selling for $100+ means the same protector sells in
grocery stores also for $100+ CS wants to argue.

Homeowners, instead, can price 'whole house' protectors from
Intermatic, Cutler-Hammer and GE in Lowes and Home Depot. How much?
Less than $50. Sorry CS - reality does not change only because you
could not get off your ass. *Knowing* without first learning is a CS
theme.

CS says a telco provided 'whole house' protector does not exist.
Had he bothered to get off his ass to learn ... 'Whole house'
telephone protector at a demarc (where telco wires meet household
wires) is inside an NID:
http://www.alarmsuperstore.com/bw/bw%20connectors.htm
http://www.basshome.com/product_4680_detailed.htm

Long before those above NIDs, a protector was this:
http://www.inwap.com/inwap/chez/Phoneline.jpg

Protector in each picture has one essential item - dedicated
earthing wire. Why? Because protectors are connecting devices to
earth. CS claims a protector will magically stop or absorb what three
miles of sky could not. Somehow a transistor inside a UPS will also
stop that 3 mile transient? CS promotes myths. No earth ground
means no effective protection. Earth ground is the protection.

CS did not even know of a 'whole house' protector routinely
installed for phones; a protector installed for free. Why is he an
expert and yet did not even know about that 'code defined'
protector? Which poster even knows of code that requires that
earthing connection? Not CS. Someone else learned long before
posting here. CS is being used as an example of the naive who somehow
*know* a UPS provides protection. Who does not even *know* that
earthing is protection. Others, instead, learn facts before
*knowing*.

Well CS, who magically *knows*, also posts reasons why he knows,
such as:
"Ignorant" and "Double conversion". He still cannot explain how
that silly little transistor stops what three miles of sky could not.
And yet that is how plug-in protection is promoted.

If CS had basic electrical knowledge, then he knew superior "double
conversion" was already inside a computer's power supply. It requires
that he *know* before posting. CS only *knows* from newsgroup myths.

Well CS did not even *know* about protectors installed on telephones
even in the 1950s. But he somehow *knows* all about protection. He
did not even know how to find a telephone protector installed at every
residence - as even defined by code. He did not even *know* about
that code requirement. But he *knows* protection? Yes, CS
demonstrates why plug-in protectors are promoted.

IEEE and other standards define one thing as essential to
protection. IEEE recommendations are not in papers as a troll has
posted in another 'cut and paste' post. Recommendations are in
Standards. Standards are quite blunt about what is protection. IEEE
Red Book (Standard 141):
> In actual practice, lightning protection is achieve by the
> process of interception of lightning produced surges,
> diverting them to ground, and by altering their
> associated wave shapes.


Or IEEE Emerald Book (Standard 1100) for "Powering and Grounding
Sensitive Electronic Equipment":
> It is important to ensure that low-impedance grounding and
> bonding connections exist among the telephone and data
> equipment, the ac power system's electrical safety-grounding
> system, and the building grounding electrode system. ...
> Failure to observe any part of this grounding requirement may
> result in hazardous potential being developed between the
> telephone (data) equipment and other grounded items that
> personnel may be near or might simultaneously contact.


How about an industry professional:
http://www.harvardrepeater.org/news/lightning.html
> Well I assert, from personal and broadcast experience spanning
> 30 years, that you can design a system that will handle *direct
> lightning strikes* on a routine basis. It takes some planning and
> careful layout, but it's not hard, nor is it overly expensive. At
> WXIA-TV, my other job, we take direct lightning strikes nearly
> every time there's a thunderstorm. Our downtime from such
> strikes is almost non-existant. ...
> Since my disasterous strike, I've been campaigning vigorously
> to educate amateurs that you *can* avoid damage from direct
> strikes. The belief that there's no protection from direct strike
> damage is *myth*. ...
> The keys to effective lightning protection are surprisingly simple,
> and surprisingly less than obvious. Of course you *must* have
> a single point ground system that eliminates all ground loops.
> And you must present a low *impedance* path for the energy
> to go. That's most generally a low *inductance* path rather than
> just a low ohm DC path.


A troll then 'cut and paste' another standard reply to create
confusion; that is for radios. Every utility wire is just another
'antenna' connected to household appliances. Every utility wire is
but another 'antenna' to carry surges destructively into appliances.
What do surges seek, destructively, via an antenna or household
appliances? Earth ground. What does the IEEE demand necessary for
transistor protection? Earth ground. What do plug-in UPS and power
strip protectors not have AND avoid discussing? Earth ground. What
does CS not understand? Earthing.

A protector is only as effective as its earthing. That plug-in UPS
does not have earthing AND does not even claim effective protection.
Notice the specs that CS cannot provide. That UPS does not even claim
protection which is why CS does not provide spec numbers.

CS does not even know of a wire that carries surges around plug-in
UPSes and directly into a computer's motherboard. Oh. Did CS also
forget about that wire; why that UPS cannot block surges? Why did he
forget to mention that bypass wire? Just another reason why the UPS
manufacturer does not even claim the protection that CS claims.

CS could not visit Lowes or Home Depot to view 'whole house'
protectors sold for less than $50. He would have to admit he did not
*know*. He *knows* protectors must cost $200+. He is an honest
person?

Anyone can go to Lowes, et al to see why those who promote myths
will even lie. An informed homeowner, instead, verifies earthing to
his telco provided 'whole house' protector AND locates 'real world'
protectors in Lowes, et al ... for less than $50.

More useful information for homeowners. Previous posts were about
a homeowner's 'secondary' protection system - using a 'whole house'
protector and earthing. A homeowner should also inspect his
'primary' protection system:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

Another useful tip from a poster who learned before posting. .

No earth ground means no effective protection. What is missing on
ineffective protectors? That dedicated 'less than 10 foot' connection
to earth. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. An
effective protector connects short to protection.

 
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Leythos
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Posts: n/a
 
      03-27-2007
On Tue, 27 Mar 2007 00:52:00 -0700, w_tom wrote:
>
>
> One 'whole house' protector selling for $200+ means all 'whole
> house' protectors costs $200+? If true, then a Monster Cable power
> strip protector selling for $100+ means the same protector sells in
> grocery stores also for $100+ CS wants to argue.


Where is your link for a whole house protector, sized that will cover a
typical home installation with pricing information?

Google returned these links:

$750 with Free
Shipping: http://www.powersystemsdirect.com/Pa...ction_1658.php


$215: http://www.smarthome.com/4860.html - Oh, wait, only 9xx joules.


And you might want to read this from a POWER COMPANY:
http://www.blackhillspower.com/otherfaq.htm
"
If I have a whole-house protector - am I fully protected from surges?

No single device can protect the whole house from all electrical surges.
The whole-house protector serves as your best, first line-of-defense
against electrical surges. For maximum protection, you should still use
what’s commonly known as “surge strips” or “plug-in” protectors as a
second line-of-defense against internally generated surges or surges that
may have gotten through the whole-house protector. Damaging surges can
also enter your home through DC voltages associated with cable television,
telephone, fax, and modem. So, we recommend a third line-of-defense which
is “data communications surge protectors”.
"

How come you can't provide a link to what you claim can be bought for $50?


--
Leythos
http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed) (remove 999 for proper email address)
 
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bud--
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Posts: n/a
 
      03-27-2007
On Mar 27, 1:52 am, "w_tom" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
> > Feel free to post your link to a $50 unit.

>
> One 'whole house' protector selling for $200+ means all 'whole
> house' protectors costs $200+? If true, then a Monster Cable power
> strip protector selling for $100+ means the same protector sells in
> grocery stores also for $100+

The link for the "$50 unit" seems to be missing. What a
disappointment.

>
> CS says a telco provided 'whole house' protector does not exist.
> Had he bothered to get off his ass to learn ... 'Whole house'
> telephone protector at a demarc (where telco wires meet household
> wires) is inside an NID:

CS may object to "whole house" protection that only protects phone
wires, a reasonable view. I have only seen "whole house" applied to
power service protection, with some units also having ports for phone
and cable. That makes about half of w_'s rant irrelevant.

> CS claims a protector will magically stop or absorb what three
> miles of sky could not. Somehow a transistor inside a UPS will also
> stop that 3 mile transient? CS promotes myths. No earth ground
> means no effective protection. Earth ground is the protection.

Statement of religious belief in earthing #1. As the IEEE guide makes
clear, plug-in suppressors work by CLAMPING the voltage on all wires
to the common ground at the suppressor. They do not work primarily by
earthing. w_ cannot understand that because it violates his
religious belief.

> CS is being used as an example of the naive who somehow
> *know* a UPS provides protection. Who does not even *know* that
> earthing is protection. Others, instead, learn facts before
> *knowing*.

Statement of religious belief in earthing #2. To learn "facts" read
the IEEE or NIST guides. Both say plug-in suppressors are effective.
That protection may or may not be included in UPSs.

>
> Well CS, who magically *knows*, also posts reasons why he knows,
> such as:
> "Ignorant" and "Double conversion". He still cannot explain how
> that silly little transistor stops what three miles of sky could not.
> And yet that is how plug-in protection is promoted.

I want to see a link that says a plug-in suppressor "stops". That is
not how they are promoted. But both the IEEE and NIST guides
"promote" plug-in suppressors.

>
> IEEE and other standards define one thing as essential to
> protection. IEEE recommendations are not in papers as a troll has
> posted in another 'cut and paste' post. Recommendations are in
> Standards. Standards are quite blunt about what is protection. IEEE
> Red Book (Standard 141):

w_ is stupid enough to think the IEEE would publish a guide (it is not
a paper) that is not consistent with the IEEE color books.

The IEEE guide, pdf page 4, makes it absolutely clear that the IEEE
guide has been peer-reviewed in the IEEE and represents the views of
the IEEE. But w_ must deny the obvious to protect his religious belief
in earthing.

And "troll" is apparently someone who debunks w_'s "cut and paste"
drivel. Do a google groups search for "what three miles of sky".

>
> Or IEEE Emerald Book (Standard 1100) for "Powering and Grounding
> Sensitive Electronic Equipment":

Another stupid denial. Multiport plug-in surges suppressors are
recognized as effective in the Emerald book, the same as in the IEEE
and NIST guides.

> What does the IEEE demand necessary for
> transistor protection? Earth ground. What do plug-in UPS and power
> strip protectors not have AND avoid discussing? Earth ground. What
> does CS not understand? Earthing.

Statement of religious belief in earthing #3. What does w_ not
understand? How plug-in suppressors work. But the IEEE guide clearly
explains they work by clamping not earthing.

>
> A protector is only as effective as its earthing. That plug-in UPS
> does not have earthing AND does not even claim effective protection.

Statement of religious belief in earthing #4. UPSs may or may not have
the protection that is included in plug-in surge suppressors. If they
do not have that protection, they are not reliable surge protection.
The accepted practice is to plug a UPS into a plug-in suppressor.

>
> No earth ground means no effective protection. What is missing on
> ineffective protectors? That dedicated 'less than 10 foot' connection
> to earth. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. An
> effective protector connects short to protection.


Statement of religious belief in earthing #5.


All of this is really irrelevant to the OP, who does not own the house
and does not want to spend money on it.

For reliable information about surges and surge protection read the
IEEE and/or NIST guides. Both say plug-in suppressors are effective.

And as always, w_ can't find a link that says plug-in suppressors are
NOT effective. All you get are his opinions based on his religious
belief in earthing.

--
bud--

 
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CS
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      03-27-2007

"bud--" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed) ups.com...
> On Mar 27, 1:52 am, "w_tom" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>
>> > Feel free to post your link to a $50 unit.

>>
>> One 'whole house' protector selling for $200+ means all 'whole
>> house' protectors costs $200+? If true, then a Monster Cable power
>> strip protector selling for $100+ means the same protector sells in
>> grocery stores also for $100+

> The link for the "$50 unit" seems to be missing. What a
> disappointment.


Disappointing, but not surprising.

>> CS says a telco provided 'whole house' protector does not exist.
>> Had he bothered to get off his ass to learn ... 'Whole house'
>> telephone protector at a demarc (where telco wires meet household
>> wires) is inside an NID:

> CS may object to "whole house" protection that only protects phone
> wires, a reasonable view. I have only seen "whole house" applied to
> power service protection, with some units also having ports for phone
> and cable. That makes about half of w_'s rant irrelevant.


I don't entirely object to whole house or any other type surge suppressor.

There are three things I object to in this case:

Giving silly advice that doesn't apply to the question. As you said, the OP
doesn't own the house, and doesn't want to spend money on it.

Relying on something that is inherrently unreliable. Surge suppressors most
commonly found at Best Buy and such are for the most part, junk. They do
work fairly well for a time, but I simply don't trust something that
pretends to work forever and gives no warning when it fails. The
metal-oxide varistor, which is the little gadget that actually does the
clamping, tends to wear out quickly, and the only way you can tell if it's
stopped working is when a spike in the line fries your gear. Heavy, more
expensive surge suppressors are better, but like I said, you won't find them
at the local Circuit City.

Giving advice that, if followed, could easily cause a fire or get someone
electricuted. This w_tom character deserves a swift kick in the pants for
that one.

Anyway, thanks for giving me a chance to rant at someone with common sense.
heh

CS

>> CS claims a protector will magically stop or absorb what three
>> miles of sky could not. Somehow a transistor inside a UPS will also
>> stop that 3 mile transient? CS promotes myths. No earth ground
>> means no effective protection. Earth ground is the protection.

> Statement of religious belief in earthing #1. As the IEEE guide makes
> clear, plug-in suppressors work by CLAMPING the voltage on all wires
> to the common ground at the suppressor. They do not work primarily by
> earthing. w_ cannot understand that because it violates his
> religious belief.
>
>> CS is being used as an example of the naive who somehow
>> *know* a UPS provides protection. Who does not even *know* that
>> earthing is protection. Others, instead, learn facts before
>> *knowing*.

> Statement of religious belief in earthing #2. To learn "facts" read
> the IEEE or NIST guides. Both say plug-in suppressors are effective.
> That protection may or may not be included in UPSs.
>
>>
>> Well CS, who magically *knows*, also posts reasons why he knows,
>> such as:
>> "Ignorant" and "Double conversion". He still cannot explain how
>> that silly little transistor stops what three miles of sky could not.
>> And yet that is how plug-in protection is promoted.

> I want to see a link that says a plug-in suppressor "stops". That is
> not how they are promoted. But both the IEEE and NIST guides
> "promote" plug-in suppressors.
>
>>
>> IEEE and other standards define one thing as essential to
>> protection. IEEE recommendations are not in papers as a troll has
>> posted in another 'cut and paste' post. Recommendations are in
>> Standards. Standards are quite blunt about what is protection. IEEE
>> Red Book (Standard 141):

> w_ is stupid enough to think the IEEE would publish a guide (it is not
> a paper) that is not consistent with the IEEE color books.
>
> The IEEE guide, pdf page 4, makes it absolutely clear that the IEEE
> guide has been peer-reviewed in the IEEE and represents the views of
> the IEEE. But w_ must deny the obvious to protect his religious belief
> in earthing.
>
> And "troll" is apparently someone who debunks w_'s "cut and paste"
> drivel. Do a google groups search for "what three miles of sky".
>
>>
>> Or IEEE Emerald Book (Standard 1100) for "Powering and Grounding
>> Sensitive Electronic Equipment":

> Another stupid denial. Multiport plug-in surges suppressors are
> recognized as effective in the Emerald book, the same as in the IEEE
> and NIST guides.
>
>> What does the IEEE demand necessary for
>> transistor protection? Earth ground. What do plug-in UPS and power
>> strip protectors not have AND avoid discussing? Earth ground. What
>> does CS not understand? Earthing.

> Statement of religious belief in earthing #3. What does w_ not
> understand? How plug-in suppressors work. But the IEEE guide clearly
> explains they work by clamping not earthing.
>
>>
>> A protector is only as effective as its earthing. That plug-in UPS
>> does not have earthing AND does not even claim effective protection.

> Statement of religious belief in earthing #4. UPSs may or may not have
> the protection that is included in plug-in surge suppressors. If they
> do not have that protection, they are not reliable surge protection.
> The accepted practice is to plug a UPS into a plug-in suppressor.
>
>>
>> No earth ground means no effective protection. What is missing on
>> ineffective protectors? That dedicated 'less than 10 foot' connection
>> to earth. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. An
>> effective protector connects short to protection.

>
> Statement of religious belief in earthing #5.
>
>
> All of this is really irrelevant to the OP, who does not own the house
> and does not want to spend money on it.
>
> For reliable information about surges and surge protection read the
> IEEE and/or NIST guides. Both say plug-in suppressors are effective.
>
> And as always, w_ can't find a link that says plug-in suppressors are
> NOT effective. All you get are his opinions based on his religious
> belief in earthing.
>
> --
> bud--
>


 
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CS
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      03-27-2007

"w_tom" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed) ups.com...
> On Mar 26, 9:41 pm, "CS" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> Resulted in this link:
>> http://www.smarthome.com/4860.html
>> Whole House Surge Protector $214.99
>>
>> Feel free to post your link to a $50 unit.

>
> CS does not want to learn. He is an 'expert' and yet does not even
> know how electricity works. Posted will be more examples of what he
> did not know and his myths.
>
> One 'whole house' protector selling for $200+ means all 'whole
> house' protectors costs $200+? If true, then a Monster Cable power
> strip protector selling for $100+ means the same protector sells in
> grocery stores also for $100+ CS wants to argue.


Still waiting for you to post a link to your $50 gadget.

> Homeowners, instead, can price 'whole house' protectors from
> Intermatic, Cutler-Hammer and GE in Lowes and Home Depot. How much?
> Less than $50. Sorry CS - reality does not change only because you
> could not get off your ass. *Knowing* without first learning is a CS
> theme.
>
> CS says a telco provided 'whole house' protector does not exist.
> Had he bothered to get off his ass to learn ... 'Whole house'
> telephone protector at a demarc (where telco wires meet household
> wires) is inside an NID:
> http://www.alarmsuperstore.com/bw/bw%20connectors.htm
> http://www.basshome.com/product_4680_detailed.htm


In your last post you said these were free. Further down this post you
again said they were free. Those companies expect folks to pay for them.
What gives?

Besides, none of those pictures looks like the demarc of my house. Explain.

<snip worthless drivel>
> How about an industry professional:
> http://www.harvardrepeater.org/news/lightning.html
>> Well I assert, from personal and broadcast experience spanning
>> 30 years, that you can design a system that will handle *direct
>> lightning strikes* on a routine basis. It takes some planning and
>> careful layout, but it's not hard, nor is it overly expensive. At
>> WXIA-TV, my other job, we take direct lightning strikes nearly
>> every time there's a thunderstorm. Our downtime from such
>> strikes is almost non-existant. ...
>> Since my disasterous strike, I've been campaigning vigorously
>> to educate amateurs that you *can* avoid damage from direct
>> strikes. The belief that there's no protection from direct strike
>> damage is *myth*. ...
>> The keys to effective lightning protection are surprisingly simple,
>> and surprisingly less than obvious. Of course you *must* have
>> a single point ground system that eliminates all ground loops.
>> And you must present a low *impedance* path for the energy
>> to go. That's most generally a low *inductance* path rather than
>> just a low ohm DC path.

>
> A troll then 'cut and paste' another standard reply to create
> confusion; that is for radios. Every utility wire is just another
> 'antenna' connected to household appliances. Every utility wire is
> but another 'antenna' to carry surges destructively into appliances.
> What do surges seek, destructively, via an antenna or household
> appliances? Earth ground. What does the IEEE demand necessary for
> transistor protection? Earth ground. What do plug-in UPS and power
> strip protectors not have AND avoid discussing? Earth ground. What
> does CS not understand? Earthing.


Again, you show your ignorance.

There is a difference between an antenna sticking up hundreds of feet into
the air, all by itself, and a power line. Otherwise, broadcasters wouldn't
bother putting up expensive and dangerous antennas.

Above ground power lines are rarely hit by lightning. Lightning, by it's
very nature, seeks ground, what you quaintly call "earthing", and power
lines are, by their nature, insulated from ground.

> A protector is only as effective as its earthing. That plug-in UPS
> does not have earthing AND does not even claim effective protection.
> Notice the specs that CS cannot provide. That UPS does not even claim
> protection which is why CS does not provide spec numbers.
>
> CS does not even know of a wire that carries surges around plug-in
> UPSes and directly into a computer's motherboard. Oh. Did CS also
> forget about that wire; why that UPS cannot block surges? Why did he
> forget to mention that bypass wire?


Maybe in your own "kludged" wiring, that's the case.

> Just another reason why the UPS
> manufacturer does not even claim the protection that CS claims.


Hey, look at this!

http://www.tripplite.com/products/pr...productID=3194

Tripp Lite, a mainstream manufacturer of UPS's, offers a $250,000 lifetime
warranty!

Let's forget for a quick second that you have claimed repeatedly this
doesn't happen...

What you should do is "kludge" together four of these outside of your
whole-house surge suppressor, wait a few seconds for all those power surges
to destroy everything, then collect your cool million bucks. Then you can
buy a limo, drive to the OP's house, and "kludge" together some protection
for his rental house.

Ok, I remember now that you said this doesn't happen.

http://www.cyberpowersystems.com/PR1500.asp

Oh, look at that! Cyberpower claims their UPS's offer "EMI, RFI, surge and
lightning protection."

You said that doesn't happen as well.

Explain.

> CS could not visit Lowes or Home Depot <snip more nonsense>


No, I couldn't. I work for a living, and I have a life, so I don't have
time to run around town just to prove you wrong, not when you've done such a
fine job of that yourself.

You have yet to explain how risking electrocution or burning one's house
down is a preferable alternative to the very slim possibility that his
computer won't function after a rare lightning strike near a power line.

You've been dancing around your "earthing" propaganda the whole time, but
have yet to post anything resembling references or proof. If these devices
are so prolific, and a .27 second search on Google provided a link to what
you believe is an overpriced unit, you should be able to flood this
newsgroup with links to the elusive $50 whole house surge protector.

You still haven't offered any type of real world solution to the OP's issue,
except for the dandy suggestion that the OP, who most likely has no
experience in electrical work, gamble with his life on a dubious wiring
scheme known as The Great Kludge of 2007.

Face it, you are ignorant, and while there's no shame in that, it is
shameful when you choose to remain ignorant, just as it is shameful when you
choose to advertise your ignorance on a newsgroup read around the world.

Your also starting to bore me. No doubt you'll feel the need to get the
last word in, and that's OK, but do try to make it something in the
neighborhood of common sense.

CS

 
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Leythos
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Posts: n/a
 
      03-28-2007
On Tue, 27 Mar 2007 08:31:49 -0700, bud-- wrote:
>
> The link for the "$50 unit" seems to be missing. What a
> disappointment.


Yep, I posted a couple links, and could not find a whole-house unit that
has as many joules as he claims is needed for under $200.

It was interesting to note that a link I posted from a Power (Utility)
company suggests that Surge Protectors for appliances and electronics (the
plugin type) are a good idea and help.

--
Leythos
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w_tom
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      03-28-2007
On Mar 27, 6:09 pm, "CS" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> There are three things I object to in this case:
>
> Giving silly advice that doesn't apply to the question. As you said, the OP
> doesn't own the house, and doesn't want to spend money on it.


Only solution provided to the OP is a 'whole house' protector with
necessary post-1990 earthing. Or the kludge solution. Only post that
provided the OP with any workable solutions also cites 'whole house'
protectors in Lowes and Home Depot for $50. Those who deny how a
computer grade UPS works also claim 'whole house' protectors cost
$200+. Intentional deception 'to win' is a common problem in
newsgroups.

So where are UPS manufacturer specs that claim such protection?
Still not provided because those claims don't exist. Even CS's UPS
manufacturer does not make surge protection claims posted by CS. CS
cannot even get off his ass to see what 'whole house' protectors sell
for in Lowes, et al. But he is an expert because he found something
on the internet? That is CS's problem. He is an expert because he
read propaganda from plug-in protector manufacturers - and never
bothered to even learn about the many type of surges. CS never posts
electrical numbers because he has no electrical knowledge. His posts
are classic of an electronic store salesman.

Effective protection costs about $1 per protected appliance. Almost
$100 for only one appliance (a UPS recommendation)? Manufacture even
will not claim such protection exists. Just another fact that CS
avoids to make a sale.

Meanwhile, a Monster Cable protector sold for $100+ is the same
protection circuit found in grocery store protectors and in the
computer grade UPS. One need only read spec numbers. Same protector
circuit is measured by joules. Its right there on each spec sheet.

Protection is only as effective as its earth ground. No way around
reality. Even the kludge solution may work IF a short connection to
earthing exists. Protector is only as effective as its earth ground.


 
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Leythos
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Posts: n/a
 
      03-28-2007
On Tue, 27 Mar 2007 18:55:09 -0700, w_tom wrote:
>
> Only solution provided to the OP is a 'whole house' protector with
> necessary post-1990 earthing. Or the kludge solution. Only post that
> provided the OP with any workable solutions also cites 'whole house'
> protectors in Lowes and Home Depot for $50. Those who deny how a
> computer grade UPS works also claim 'whole house' protectors cost
> $200+.


The only deception is your not providing a LINK to what you suggest.

Post your link to the Whole House protector for sale online where we can
see the cost.

--
Leythos
(E-Mail Removed) (remove 999 for proper email address)
 
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