Velocity Reviews - Computer Hardware Reviews

Velocity Reviews > Newsgroups > Computing > Computer Support > Surge Protector Question

Reply
Thread Tools

Surge Protector Question

 
 
Leythos
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      03-25-2007
On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 17:41:26 -0700, w_tom wrote:

> On Mar 24, 11:19 am, (E-Mail Removed) wrote:
>> Thanks for all the help, it's not my house so rewiring is out of the
>> question,
>> guess I'll get the backup

>
> First, battery backup has same circuit found in power strip
> protectors. Why would that be any better protection?


Because, once again, you spread pure BS - they do not have the same
electronics.

> Furthermore,
> joules rating is so low as to be equivalent to zero protection. IOW
> they put in just enough to claim a surge protector circuit on color
> glossy propaganda - and hope you don't notice that number is essential
> zero.
>
> Second, let's assume a plug-in protector will ground a surge.


First, lets assume that you read the OP's post and he clearly mentioned
that he has no ground at all in his building.
--
Leythos
http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed) (remove 999 for proper email address)
 
Reply With Quote
 
 
 
 
w_tom
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      03-25-2007
On Mar 24, 8:44 pm, Leythos <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> Because, once again, you spread pure BS - they do not have the same
> electronics.


Once again Leythos will attack the messenger because that technician
did not learn as an engineer. Leythos will eventually use his
'invisible protectors' as proof that plug-in protectors are effective
- once personal attacks don't work.

Repeatedly posted - and for engineering reasons - are references to
'single point' earthing and to 'less than 10 feet'. Provided were but
two (in a long list of) reasons why an AC wall receptacle is not
earthing. Leythos cannot challenge the science. He must attack the
messenger.

The OP is warned that many will post myths because they did not even
learn from manufacturer datasheets, the IEEE, an industry benchmark
(Polyphaser), or by designing this stuff many decades ago. How do we
know Leythos has not a clue? He avoids all discussion about
earthing. No earth ground means no effective protection. Somehow a
magic box will stop, block, or absorb what three miles of sky could
not? That is what Leythos must claim next. But first he must post a
personal attack. That is how plug-in protectors get promoted.

Upgrade the household earthing and install a 'whole house'
protector. Instead use technology even used by the US Army so that
munition dumps do not explode. Properly earthed 'whole house'
protectors are that much superior.

 
Reply With Quote
 
 
 
 
The Old Sourdough
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      03-25-2007
On 2007-03-24, in 24hoursupport.helpdesk, The Old Sourdough waxed eloquently:
snip
> replaces it with a higher-rated fuse than is on the hot side? Now
> that can be a real killer.
>
>


Sheesh.. Meant to say a lower-rated fuse....

--
The Old Sourdough
So, is the glass half empty, half full, or just twice as
large as it needs to be?
 
Reply With Quote
 
stansfieldpeter@hotmail.co.uk
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      03-25-2007
On Mar 24, 2:29 pm, Whiskers <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> On 2007-03-24, (E-Mail Removed) <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
> > I live in an old house where the wiring is not grounded, if I use
> > a surge protector for my PC where I use an 3-prong to 2-prong adaptor
> > to plug the surge protector into the wall outlet, will the surge
> > protector
> > still function properly, or will not having it grounded make it
> > useless?

>
> That's the least of your problems. Get the house re-wired properly.
>
> --
> -- ^^^^^^^^^^
> -- Whiskers
> -- ~~~~~~~~~~


im only guessing but i whould think it whould work coz thay work by
using a week link like a fuse i whould definatly give it a try but get
a good one and never try take them appert

 
Reply With Quote
 
Leythos
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      03-25-2007
On Sun, 25 Mar 2007 07:50:47 -0700, stansfieldpeter wrote:

> On Mar 24, 2:29 pm, Whiskers <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> On 2007-03-24, (E-Mail Removed) <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>
>> > I live in an old house where the wiring is not grounded, if I use
>> > a surge protector for my PC where I use an 3-prong to 2-prong adaptor
>> > to plug the surge protector into the wall outlet, will the surge
>> > protector
>> > still function properly, or will not having it grounded make it
>> > useless?

>>
>> That's the least of your problems. Get the house re-wired properly.
>>

>
> im only guessing but i whould think it whould work coz thay work by
> using a week link like a fuse i whould definatly give it a try but get
> a good one and never try take them appert


Only the worthless units use a "fuse" like link. A good quality UPS with
filtering and protection ability will run about $150 for the lowest end
units. They are all about worthless without a proper ground.

--
Leythos
(E-Mail Removed) (remove 999 for proper email address)
 
Reply With Quote
 
bud--
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      03-25-2007
On Mar 24, 6:41 pm, "w_tom" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> On Mar 24, 11:19 am, (E-Mail Removed) wrote:
>
> > Thanks for all the help, it's not my house so rewiring is out of the
> > question,
> > guess I'll get the backup

>

The best information on surges and surge protection I have seen is at:
http://www.mikeholt.com/files/PDF/Li...ion_May051.pdf
- the title is "How to protect your house and its contents from
lightning: IEEE guide for surge protection of equipment connected to
AC power and communication circuits" published by the IEEE in 2005
(the IEEE is the dominant organization of electrical and electronic
engineers in the US).

And also:
http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/p.../surgesfnl.pdf
- this is the "NIST recommended practice guide: Surges Happen!: how to
protect the appliances in your home" published by the National
Institute of Standards and Technology (the US government agency
formerly called the National Bureau of Standards) in 2001

Both guides were intended for wide distribution to the general public
to explain surges and how to protect against them. The IEEE guide was
targeted at people who have some (not much) technical background.

>
> Second, let's assume a plug-in protector will ground a surge. OK.
> So that surge will travel back a safety ground wire that is bundled
> with other wires. Now a transient is induces on all those other wires
> and other appliances. Where is the protection? They hope you don't
> notice another fact. It does not even claim to protect from surges
> that 1) typically do damage and 2) require earthing to eliminate.
> Just a second reason why effective protection is not provided. Yes,
> near zero protection is sufficient to claim it protects - and why they
> hope you will confuse safety ground with earth ground.
>

Both the IEEE and NIST guides say plug-in suppressors are effective.
Manufacturers of plug-in suppressors certainly "claim" the devices
are effective.

> Safety grounds on wall receptacles will not provide surge
> protection. It's called a safety ground or equipment ground- not
> earth ground - for good reason. Effective protection has always been
> about *earthing* BEFORE a transient can enter a building.

As described in the IEEE guide, plug-in suppressors clamp the voltage
on all wires to the common ground at the suppressor. They do no work
primarily by earthing.

> Effective protector also has that dedicated earthing wire
> - an essential 'less than 10 foot' connection.

w_ has a religious belief in earthing. It is not shared by the IEEE or
NIST with regard to plug-in suppressors - they work primarily by
clamping.

>
> No reason to rewire a building. No earth ground (not just any
> ground) means no effective protection.

Statement of religious belief in earthing #2.

> Rewire an entire building and
> not upgrade the earthing? Then still have no effective protection.
> Why? Earthing is the protection.

Statement of religious belief in earthing #3.

>
> A protector is not protection. When promoting ineffective solutions
> to the naive, others here have and will promote a protector as
> protection. Reality: a protector is a connecting device to
> protection. What is the protection? Earth ground.

Statement of religious belief in earthing #4. Among the naive that say
plug-in suppressors are effective are the IEEE and NIST.

> How do you know it is ineffective? Where is
> a dedicated earthing wire? Where do they discuss "earth" ground?
> They don't. Such protectors are promoted by myths.

Statement of religious belief in earthing #5. The IEEE guide discusses
earth ground. But earthing is not primarily how plug-in suppressors
work. That violates w_'s religious belief in earthing so he can't
understand the guides.

>
> Soon will arrive a troll who claims earth ground is not necessary
> for protection. He will 'cut and paste' his routine half truths.

The troll has already arrived. w_, being evangelical in his belief in
earthing, searches google groups for "lightning" or "surge" to "cut
and paste" his religious tract to convert the heathens.

For reliable information, not half truths, read the IEEE and/or NIST
guides.

> No
> earth ground (what lightning seeks) means no effective protection.

Statement of religious belief in earthing #6.


> Where is the dedicated earthing
> wire? No earth ground means no effective protection.

Statement of religious belief in earthing #7.

Changing the system earthing or installing a power service surge
suppressor are irrelevant to the OP who does not own the house.



I don't see how a UPS would improve things. A UPS may or may not have
effective surge protection, and provides protection from voltage loss
which is not the OP's question.

The best fix is moving the equipment to a location with a grounded
outlet.

A plug-in suppressor, as Leythos said, would provide hot-to-neutral
surge protection. That would be better than nothing. All
interconnected equipment, like a printer, has to be connected to the
same suppressor. And if a phone wire connects to the computer that
also has to be connected through the suppressor. I would not recommend
doing that with no system ground.

--
bud--



 
Reply With Quote
 
CS
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      03-25-2007

<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed) oups.com...
>I live in an old house where the wiring is not grounded, if I use
> a surge protector for my PC where I use an 3-prong to 2-prong adaptor
> to plug the surge protector into the wall outlet, will the surge
> protector
> still function properly, or will not having it grounded make it
> useless?
>


It's probably useless.

The good news is the power supply built into your PC will handle all kinds
of nasty power, and it's far more effective than those cheap surge
protectors you find at your local store.

You really do need a grounded outlet, though. It may be a cheap fix, so I
strongly suggest you call an electrician and see what he can do. Depending
on where you live, you may be able to ask or insist the landlord fix this.
If not, some extreme diplomacy might get him to share the cost. This isn't
just about your computer's safety, but your body's as well.

Depending on how important this computer is, it may be worth having it's own
circuit installed. If you use it for work, or otherwise would be in deep
doodoo if it died, it may be worth a couple hundred bucks to do this. If
you experience frequent brownouts or blackouts, you probably want to invest
in a good UPS, which will add additional protection. The good ones start at
around $200. The cheaper ones don't offer any protection, and are best
avoided.

As you can see, surge protection is a hotly debated item. What some folks,
especially 'engineers', forget, is that the end user, who is just some guy
who wants to plug something in and have it work properly, doesn't want to
hear about endless NEC codes, transients, ground loops, widgets and
whatnots, nor does he plan on retrofitting a rental house or apartment with
thousands of dollars of equipment.

Fact is, if you have halfway decent power coming to your house, you could
most likely operate for years the way you are with no ill effects. I
wouldn't recommend it, but it's hardly an issue that should alarm you
greatly.

CS

 
Reply With Quote
 
w_tom
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      03-25-2007
On Mar 25, 12:08 pm, "CS" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> As you can see, surge protection is a hotly debated item. What some folks,
> especially 'engineers', forget, is that the end user, who is just some guy
> who wants to plug something in and have it work properly, doesn't want to
> hear about endless NEC codes, transients, ground loops, widgets and
> whatnots, nor does he plan on retrofitting a rental house or apartment with
> thousands of dollars of equipment.


Which is exactly why a homeowner needs something simpler and that
actually does provide protection. Earthing must be upgraded to exceed
post 1990 NEC requirements. No way around that fact. Then one 'whole
house' protector is installed. What will a plug-in protector do? No
earth ground means ... where is that complex?

What can happen to a pile of desktop papers or the rug behind the
furniture when something ineffective and grossly undersized is
installed? Scary pictures of protectors that meet existing standards:
http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554
http://www.westwhitelandfire.com/Art...Protectors.pdf
http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm
http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html

Those scary pictures are current technology plug-in protectors -
even if he spent $thousands to rewire a house. A quick visit to Lowes
or Home Depot well find a 'whole house' protector for less than $50.
A protector that is sufficiently sized. Better 'whole house'
protectors are also available - also from the many responsible
manufacturers. What is the alternative - if the OP spent $thousands
to rewire his house? View those scary pictures. Then install the
earthing and one 'whole house' protector. No one else has even come
close to providing the OP with a better solution.

For the OP, even the UPS recommendation was a completely bogus
recommendation - as posted previously. Nothing complex about it.
Upgrade the earthing - which is not the third prong on wall
receptacles. Install one 'whole house' protector. Have protection
that was standard and effective even 70 years ago.

Remember what the OP has - two wire outlets. No safety ground. Just
another reason why plug-in protectors and the same circuit inside a
UPS would not be effective.

 
Reply With Quote
 
CS
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      03-26-2007
"w_tom" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed) oups.com...
> On Mar 25, 12:08 pm, "CS" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> As you can see, surge protection is a hotly debated item. What some
>> folks,
>> especially 'engineers', forget, is that the end user, who is just some
>> guy
>> who wants to plug something in and have it work properly, doesn't want to
>> hear about endless NEC codes, transients, ground loops, widgets and
>> whatnots, nor does he plan on retrofitting a rental house or apartment
>> with
>> thousands of dollars of equipment.

>
> Which is exactly why a homeowner needs something simpler and that
> actually does provide protection. Earthing must be upgraded to exceed
> post 1990 NEC requirements. No way around that fact. Then one 'whole
> house' protector is installed. What will a plug-in protector do? No
> earth ground means ... where is that complex?


It's not his house. Who's going to do wiring upgrades on somebody else's
property? If this doesn't make sense to you, then I suggest you contact the
OP and offer to pay for the upgrades.

> What can happen to a pile of desktop papers or the rug behind the
> furniture when something ineffective and grossly undersized is
> installed? Scary pictures of protectors that meet existing standards:
> http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554
> http://www.westwhitelandfire.com/Art...Protectors.pdf
> http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm
> http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html
>
> Those scary pictures are current technology plug-in protectors -
> even if he spent $thousands to rewire a house. A quick visit to Lowes
> or Home Depot well find a 'whole house' protector for less than $50.


Leviton whole-house surge protector $214.99 + shipping, tax
Estimated labor for install $300+

Now we're at a minimum of $500 to upgrade somebody else's electrical wiring.

> A protector that is sufficiently sized. Better 'whole house'
> protectors are also available - also from the many responsible
> manufacturers. What is the alternative - if the OP spent $thousands
> to rewire his house? View those scary pictures. Then install the
> earthing and one 'whole house' protector. No one else has even come
> close to providing the OP with a better solution.


Define "better solution".

I hardly think 'better solution' means spending $500 on a rental property,
while running the risk of getting evicted and possibly end up paying for
REMOVAL of the upgrade, which in many states is entirely possible.

How much is his computer worth? How bad does he need it? What's the
quality of the mains feed to the house? Does he have any high power
equipment, such as welders?

Scary pictures are one thing, but if you don't have the slightest idea what
the whole situation is, you aren't even in a position to make a "better
solution".

> For the OP, even the UPS recommendation was a completely bogus
> recommendation - as posted previously.


Seems you could use an update on modern, medium to high end UPS's. In
essence, they charge the batteries on mains power, but also run an inveter
100% of the time, so when the mains cut off, you have no interuption of
power. This also has the effect or isolating the circuit past the UPS.
Since the inverter is regulated, the equipment is safe from any realistic
voltage spike through the mains.

Oh, and when the OP decides to move, he can take his UPS with him.

> Nothing complex about it.
> Upgrade the earthing - which is not the third prong on wall
> receptacles. Install one 'whole house' protector. Have protection
> that was standard and effective even 70 years ago.


Are you saying every house built in the past 70 years has all the bells and
doodads you've mentioned?

My house, built in in the 40's, does not, nor did my last house, built in
the 60's.

CS

> Remember what the OP has - two wire outlets. No safety ground. Just
> another reason why plug-in protectors and the same circuit inside a
> UPS would not be effective.
>


 
Reply With Quote
 
w_tom
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      03-26-2007
At first, I thought CS was an honest poster. Well, CS wants all to
believe a 'whole house' protector must cost $200+. He deceives.
Sufficiently sized 'whole house' protector from Intermatic, GE, and
Cutler-Hammer are sold in Lowes and Home Depot for less than $50.
Yes, larger and better protectors do cost $hundreds. But sufficient
protectors are even sold in Home Depot and Lowes for less than
$50 ... an honest post. This paragraph repeats what was posted
previously before CS posted deception.

To define "better solution" ... again:
1) Protector that does not require $thousands to install three wire
receptacles.

2) Rewiring is required for a plug-in protector or a plug-in UPS;
necessary for human safety. Rewiring still does not earth for
transistor safety. Neither 'magic box' claims protection from
destructive surges even if wall wiring is replaced.

3) Protection means earth ground is required. No way around earthing
that meets and exceeds post 1990 National Electrical Code
requirements. Reality is that simple. Earthing not just for
transistor safety. Earthing also required for human safety.

4) What are household critical electronics during events that create
surges? Smoke detectors. Kitchen and bathroom GFCIs. To protect
human life when most needed, these devices also require 'whole house'
surge protection. A human safety solution that also protects his
computer on two wire receptacles. That's four times a 'better
solution'. If CS understood basic electrical concepts, then he knew
all this. Meanwhile more reasons.

5) Where does a plug-in protector or UPS even claim to provide
protection from typically destructive surges. Neither makes that
claim as demonstrated by spec sheet numbers the CS forgot to read.
Still, manufacturer requires three wire wall receptacles. $thousands
for 3 wire outlets and it still does not claim to protect?

6) Telco installs a 'whole house' protector. Why? Telco "installed
for free" solution is both inexpensive and effective. Superior
solution also required by the OP on AC mains.

7) OP requests a less expensive solution that works on a two wire
electrical system. Only solution is also the superior solution: a
'whole house' protector and earthing. So simple that a caveman can
purchase it in Lowes and Home Depot - the 'do it yourself' stores.

CS- you are expected to know simplest technicals before posting.
Your claim of 'modern' protection inside a 'modern' UPS is totally
bogus. That silly little transistor inside an inverter will stop
what three miles of sky could not. CS makes that claim. Meanwhile if
an inverter protects from surges, then a superior inverter inside all
computer power supplies already provides 100% protection. Meanwhile,
the UPS connects comptuer directly to AC mains when not in battery
backup mode. CS has just posted another classic myth. Obvious: CS
has no idea what is inside a UPS nor even read its numerical specs.
Had CS read specs, well, it is a same protector circuit inside grocery
store protectors. But again, CS is expected to learn before posting
myths. Suddenly a silly little transistor will stop what three miles
of sky could not? Yes - according to CS who even invents this
inverter rather than learn how UPSes work.

To the OP: a 'whole house' protector is your only effective
solution. Consider doing same with a kludge solution. Get a plug-in
protector of largest joules. Cut its power cord as short as possible
(short wire connections are critical). Plug that protector into an AC
receptacle attached to breaker box. Make sure computer is powered
from same 'half' of breaker box as that breaker box receptacle. Some
protection if the breaker box has a short ('less than 10 foot')
connection to earth. This kludge attempts what makes a 'whole house'
protector so effective. Again, the person who learned this stuff many
decades ago again provides another solution ... and does not
misrepresent prices to intentionally deceive you.

If CS had introductory electrical knowledge, then what he calls
"bells and doodads" would be understood. Details provided by CS
promote plug-in UPS using same myths that also promote HeadOn. No
numbers. No reasons. No manufacturer specs. A subjective 'its works
because it is modern' mythology - also called junk science. He now
claims a silly little transistor will magically stop lightning. When
they complain why more than 50% of America's engineers are now
immigrants, well, view CS as a reason.

OP now has a useful solution, a kludge solution, intentional
deception from CS, and the fundamental concept: "protection is only
as effective as its earth ground".

On Mar 25, 9:57 pm, "CS" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> ...
> It's not his house. Who's going to do wiring upgrades on somebody else's
> property? If this doesn't make sense to you, then I suggest you contact the
> OP and offer to pay for the upgrades.
> ...
>
> Leviton whole-house surge protector $214.99 + shipping, tax
> Estimated labor for install $300+
>
> Now we're at a minimum of $500 to upgrade somebody else's electrical wiring.
> ...
>
> Define "better solution".
>
> I hardly think 'better solution' means spending $500 on a rental property,
> while running the risk of getting evicted and possibly end up paying for
> REMOVAL of the upgrade, which in many states is entirely possible.
>
> How much is his computer worth? How bad does he need it? What's the
> quality of the mains feed to the house? Does he have any high power
> equipment, such as welders?
>
> Scary pictures are one thing, but if you don't have the slightest idea what
> the whole situation is, you aren't even in a position to make a "better
> solution".
> ...
>
> Seems you could use an update on modern, medium to high end UPS's. In
> essence, they charge the batteries on mains power, but also run an inveter
> 100% of the time, so when the mains cut off, you have no interuption of
> power. This also has the effect or isolating the circuit past the UPS.
> Since the inverter is regulated, the equipment is safe from any realistic
> voltage spike through the mains.
>
> Oh, and when the OP decides to move, he can take his UPS with him.
> ...
>
> Are you saying every house built in the past 70 years has all the bells and
> doodads you've mentioned?
>
> My house, built in in the 40's, does not, nor did my last house, built in
> the 60's.


 
Reply With Quote
 
 
 
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Surge Protector Question Greg Computer Support 59 11-01-2007 10:47 AM
How not to blow a fuse? computers and a multi plug w/ surge protector jameshanley39@yahoo.co.uk Computer Information 3 09-19-2007 03:54 PM
Surge Protector Livewire Computer Support 8 01-06-2007 09:26 PM
UPS or Surge Protector? symonlandor@gmail.com Computer Support 6 01-21-2006 09:00 PM
dsl and surge protector XPD NZ Computing 7 10-11-2005 11:29 AM



Advertisments