«

Chris Uppal wrote:
> You surely are not claiming that Java is /not/ of archaic design ? (In the
> sense of "archaic" that the OP clearly meant -- lacking invaluable features
> which have been commonplace in language design for many decades, and which a
> few modern scripting languages are finally starting to catch up with).

I believe that "archaic" is a loaded word. Java lacks many features
that I'd like to see in it; but I am not a representative computer
programmer. I recognize that languages that I like will be forever
beyond the abilities of the vast majority of programmers, and therefore
are doomed to be passed up for the great majority of software products.
Not everyone can be impractical. I suspect that samir is in a similar
position.

All in all, I think Java strikes a nice balance that has been very
successful; and it's not a coincidence that it has been so popular for
so long. I'd be a fool to overlook that and preach the greatness of
Haskell (my favorite language du jour) as if it should be used for large
business software projects.

--
Chris Smith

On Mar 12, 5:58 pm, Mark Space <marksp...@sbc.global.net> wrote:
> Jason Cavett wrote:
> > On Mar 12, 3:07 pm, "CIndy Lee" <danparker...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> Visual Stuido's IDE just makes things to easy.
>
> > Normally I would agree with you, but Eclipse has made so many leaps
> > and bounds that it's just as (or really really close) easy to use.
>
> Could elaborate a little on what Eclipse does that is so great? I use
> Netbeans right now and I think it's the bomb. Plus Matisse is free on
> NB. ^_^ But if there's a reason to move to Eclipse I'd like to at least
> hear about it.
>
> Also, I'm not looking for an IDE flame war, just some perspective from a
> fellow Java user. ^_^ ^_^

Just a quick list of the small feature set Eclipse has:

1. On-the-fly compiling - you see errors as you create them
2. Built-in debugger - EXCELLENT
3. Plug-in centric - anybody can design plugins which greatly extends
the functionality of Eclipse. This can include pretty much anything
(including other languages). Additionally, Eclipse now provides an
easy way to keep your plug-ins updated
4. Visual Editor - the visual editor, along with many other "side
projects" are part of the Eclipse Foundation project. you can easily
add this (and hundreds of other) plug-ins to your Eclipse installation
5. Ant Builds - Eclipse helps in the creation of Ant scrips
6. Many different pieces of functionality including, but definitely
not limited to, automatic code formatting, automatic commenting (for
header comments, methods and other important stuff), built-in
integration with CVS (and other plug-ins can add integration with
other software control systems)...etc...etc...etc.
7. Context sensitive help. If you're typing something like...
thisIsAString. ... and you can't remember a method name, just hit Ctrl
+Space and Eclipse will provide you with all your options. This works
for pretty much any place you can type code into Eclipse. If you are
running Eclipse on the JDK (as opposed to the JRE) you'll get even
better context sensitive help as Eclipse will also pull in the Javadoc
information.
8. It's all free (minus some of the plug-ins, but that's up to the
company developing those plug-ins anyway).

I haven't tried Netbeans, so I can't compare. But, Eclipse is
definitely good, there is no doubt about that.

On Mar 12, 9:27 pm, "Chris Uppal" <chris.up...@metagnostic.REMOVE-
THIS.org> wrote:
> samir wrote:
> > What I want to say that Java (as a VM) is a cool and Java (the
> > programming language) is a lesser thing.
>
> If you haven't already looked at "Scala", then you may find that interesting.
> Or maybe "Nice".
>
> http://www.scala-lang.org/
> http://nice.sourceforge.net/
>
> -- chris

Thank you for the information Chris, I've looked yesterday at Scala
and found it interseting. It's now on my Todo list

Adiaux
Samir

On Mar 12, 10:58 pm, Mark Space <marksp...@sbc.global.net> wrote:
> Jason Cavett wrote:
> > On Mar 12, 3:07 pm, "CIndy Lee" <danparker...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> Visual Stuido's IDE just makes things to easy.
>
> > Normally I would agree with you, but Eclipse has made so many leaps
> > and bounds that it's just as (or really really close) easy to use.
>
> Could elaborate a little on what Eclipse does that is so great? I use
> Netbeans right now and I think it's the bomb. Plus Matisse is free on
> NB. ^_^ But if there's a reason to move to Eclipse I'd like to at least
> hear about it.
>
> Also, I'm not looking for an IDE flame war, just some perspective from a
> fellow Java user. ^_^ ^_^

Tell me what you linke about an IDE and I'll tell you you'll find it
in emacs

On Mar 13, 12:01 am, "gethostbyn...@gmail.com"
<gethostbyn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 12 mar, 15:55, "samir" <samirbena...@linuxmail.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Today, I've googled for "i hate java" and "java sucks".
>
> > I wasn't really amazed of the number of pages listed. I can imagine
> > the frustration of some newbie when, first, tweeking the installation
> > or struggling with some IDEs that consume "astronomical" (three years
> > ago, my computer had 16mb of ram : ) amounts of memory. But the
> > biggest problem, I think, is java's coolest part: The huge availale
> > classes and source code . For some one that likes programming it's a
> > source of frustration. First, you know that what ever you're doing
> > have been done. Then, you get simply lost when learning: What class'
> > should I start with? How do I choose one?...
>
> > For the rest, the problem is with java the programming language (not
> > the virtual machine): Java is seen by many people as a toy programming
> > language. No multiple inheritance, garbage collection and the
> > templates are childish.
>
> > For me, all the staff above wasn't my problem. My problem was with
> > accepting that such an amazing VM that can run on multiple
> > achitectures is being wasted using such an archaic programming
> > language. So, I've tried some of the available
> > "alternatives" (unfortunately, most of these alternatives aren't yet
> > ready to compete with Java). The one that had my attention the most is
> > Jython. The power of python within a Java VM
>
> > So, I started tweeking the beast and found that, not only programming
> > was more fun, but also more productive: It's not about reducing the
> > number of lines in program, but it's about reducing the time needed
> > for debugging and praying that the thing will work.
>
> > What I want to say that Java (as a VM) is a cool and Java (the
> > programming language) is a lesser thing.
>
> > Adiaux
> > Samir
>
> > P.S:
>
> Well, I think that startup speed of Java (as a VM) is the main
> inconvenience.
>
> gethostbyname

It takes "ages" to startup especialy on low ram machines. But, Java VM
takes no time to start from an ARM (they have native java bytecode
interpreter in their chips, and I like it . I've read somewhere that
Sun have sacrificed size for the sake of speed

On Mar 12, 5:58 pm, Mark Space <marksp...@sbc.global.net> wrote:
> Jason Cavett wrote:
> > On Mar 12, 3:07 pm, "CIndy Lee" <danparker...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> Visual Stuido's IDE just makes things to easy.
>
> > Normally I would agree with you, but Eclipse has made so many leaps
> > and bounds that it's just as (or really really close) easy to use.
>
> Could elaborate a little on what Eclipse does that is so great? I use
> Netbeans right now and I think it's the bomb. Plus Matisse is free on
> NB. ^_^ But if there's a reason to move to Eclipse I'd like to at least
> hear about it.
>
> Also, I'm not looking for an IDE flame war, just some perspective from a
> fellow Java user. ^_^ ^_^

Just a quick list of the small feature set Eclipse has:

1. On-the-fly compiling - you see errors as you create them
2. Built-in debugger - EXCELLENT
3. Plug-in centric - anybody can design plugins which greatly extends
the functionality of Eclipse. This can include pretty much anything
(including other languages). Additionally, Eclipse now provides an
easy way to keep your plug-ins updated
4. Visual Editor - the visual editor, along with many other "side
projects" are part of the Eclipse Foundation project. you can easily
add this (and hundreds of other) plug-ins to your Eclipse installation
5. Ant Builds - Eclipse helps in the creation of Ant scrips
6. Many different pieces of functionality including, but definitely
not limited to, automatic code formatting, automatic commenting (for
header comments, methods and other important stuff), built-in
integration with CVS (and other plug-ins can add integration with
other software control systems)...etc...etc...etc.
7. Context sensitive help. If you're typing something like...
thisIsAString. ... and you can't remember a method name, just hit Ctrl
+Space and Eclipse will provide you with all your options. This works
for pretty much any place you can type code into Eclipse. If you are
running Eclipse on the JDK (as opposed to the JRE) you'll get even
better context sensitive help as Eclipse will also pull in the Javadoc
information.
8. It's all free (minus some of the plug-ins, but that's up to the
company developing those plug-ins anyway).

I haven't tried Netbeans, so I can't compare. But, Eclipse is
definitely good, there is no doubt about that.

> You surely are not claiming that Java is /not/ of archaic design ? (In the
> sense of "archaic" that the OP clearly meant -- lacking invaluable features
> which have been commonplace in language design for many decades, and which a
> few modern scripting languages are finally starting to catch up with).
>
> -- chris
This is profound ignorance, or I don't understand the meaning of
common place terms like 'commonplace' and 'many decades.' APL was
created in 1957 (5 decades is 'many' for the numerally challenged),
and I would venture to say Java has 'invaluable features' that APL
lacks. Java has been around for what, 15 years? So you are saying it
was a decade plus behind when it was invented? That it in fact is,
contrary to all conceivable evidence, inferior to Cobol and Pascal?
Just how many languages were in common use in the 80's so their
advanced features could be considered common place? 5? 10? Get some
perspective you silly, silly person.

On Mar 13, 1:45 am, Arne Vajhøj <a...@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
> samir wrote:
> > On Mar 12, 8:37 pm, r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) wrote:
> >> "samir" <samirbena...@linuxmail.org> writes:
> >>> Today, I've googled for "i (...) java" and "java (...)".
> >>> I wasn't really amazed of the number of pages listed.
> >> »There are just two kinds of languages: the ones everybody
> >> complains about and the ones nobody uses.«
>
> >> (Bjarne Stroustrup)
>
> > Python do not belong to any of those two categories
>
> Python is not that widely used.
>
> Arne

It's true that Python isn't as popular as Java, but it isn't also a
programming language that "no body uses". See this:

http://www.dedasys.com/articles/lang...opularity.html

I think that Python is "the next leap" to the future: Simplicity,
freedom and some black magic when needed.

On Mar 13, 1:41 am, Arne Vajhøj <a...@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
> samir wrote:
> > I wasn't really amazed of the number of pages listed. I can imagine
> > the frustration of some newbie when, first, tweeking the installation
> > or struggling with some IDEs that consume "astronomical" (three years
> > ago, my computer had 16mb of ram : )
>
> You used an outdated computer 3 years ago. Not really Javas fault.

Outdated computers are the real test for any os/programming language.

>
> > amounts of memory. But the
> > biggest problem, I think, is java's coolest part: The huge availale
> > classes and source code . For some one that likes programming it's a
> > source of frustration. First, you know that what ever you're doing
> > have been done. Then, you get simply lost when learning: What class'
> > should I start with? How do I choose one?...
>
> > For the rest, the problem is with java the programming language (not
> > the virtual machine): Java is seen by many people as a toy programming
> > language. No multiple inheritance, garbage collection and the
> > templates are childish.
>
> I think most agree that multiple inheritance and explicit deallocation
> of memory is a bad thing.

Not that bad . I think that multiple inheritance just requires more
attention and discipline when programming. Explicit deallocation of
memory is good thing to keep track of your RAM usage. I think that
most people will say that garbage collection is a bad thing when it
comes to a language like Java.

> C++ templates can do some things that Java generics can not.

Like operator overloading?


> And vice versa. They are simply relative different concepts.
> > For me, all the staff above wasn't my problem. My problem was with
> > accepting that such an amazing VM that can run on multiple
> > achitectures is being wasted using such an archaic programming
> > language. So, I've tried some of the available
> > "alternatives" (unfortunately, most of these alternatives aren't yet
> > ready to compete with Java). The one that had my attention the most is
> > Jython. The power of python within a Java VM
>
> > So, I started tweeking the beast and found that, not only programming
> > was more fun, but also more productive: It's not about reducing the
> > number of lines in program, but it's about reducing the time needed
> > for debugging and praying that the thing will work.
>
> If you like that type of language then fine. You may also want
> to check JRuby and Groovy out.
>

Tried JRuby, didn't like it

> I do not think you need to try jgnat (Ada).
>

I did some Ada in school. Cool programming language. I'll give jgnat a
try

>
> > What I want to say that Java (as a VM) is a cool and Java (the
> > programming language) is a lesser thing.
>
> Your choice.
>
> One size does not fit all.

As expected

>
> Arne


Adiaux
Samir

On Mar 13, 12:30 am, Lew <l...@nospam.lewscanon.com> wrote:
> I love Java.
>
> I don't require perfection, just utility. It has plenty of that.

The you might like Python too. Consider writing a complete program
without errors (it depends) containing up to 10 times less lines of
code than the same program written in Java.

Adiaux
Samir