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Jason Cavett wrote:
> On Mar 12, 3:07 pm, "CIndy Lee" <danparker...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Visual Stuido's IDE just makes things to easy.
>
> Normally I would agree with you, but Eclipse has made so many leaps
> and bounds that it's just as (or really really close) easy to use.
>

Could elaborate a little on what Eclipse does that is so great? I use
Netbeans right now and I think it's the bomb. Plus Matisse is free on
NB. ^_^ But if there's a reason to move to Eclipse I'd like to at least
hear about it.

Also, I'm not looking for an IDE flame war, just some perspective from a
fellow Java user. ^_^ ^_^

On 12 mar, 15:55, "samir" <samirbena...@linuxmail.org> wrote:
> Today, I've googled for "i hate java" and "java sucks".
>
> I wasn't really amazed of the number of pages listed. I can imagine
> the frustration of some newbie when, first, tweeking the installation
> or struggling with some IDEs that consume "astronomical" (three years
> ago, my computer had 16mb of ram : ) amounts of memory. But the
> biggest problem, I think, is java's coolest part: The huge availale
> classes and source code . For some one that likes programming it's a
> source of frustration. First, you know that what ever you're doing
> have been done. Then, you get simply lost when learning: What class'
> should I start with? How do I choose one?...
>
> For the rest, the problem is with java the programming language (not
> the virtual machine): Java is seen by many people as a toy programming
> language. No multiple inheritance, garbage collection and the
> templates are childish.
>
> For me, all the staff above wasn't my problem. My problem was with
> accepting that such an amazing VM that can run on multiple
> achitectures is being wasted using such an archaic programming
> language. So, I've tried some of the available
> "alternatives" (unfortunately, most of these alternatives aren't yet
> ready to compete with Java). The one that had my attention the most is
> Jython. The power of python within a Java VM
>
> So, I started tweeking the beast and found that, not only programming
> was more fun, but also more productive: It's not about reducing the
> number of lines in program, but it's about reducing the time needed
> for debugging and praying that the thing will work.
>
> What I want to say that Java (as a VM) is a cool and Java (the
> programming language) is a lesser thing.
>
> Adiaux
> Samir
>
> P.S:


Well, I think that startup speed of Java (as a VM) is the main
inconvenience.

gethostbyname

I love Java.

I don't require perfection, just utility. It has plenty of that.

It could be a mistake to malign VB. That's a pretty useful language also.

-- Lew

Mark Space wrote:
> Jason Cavett wrote:
>> On Mar 12, 3:07 pm, "CIndy Lee" <danparker...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Visual Stuido's IDE just makes things to easy.
>>
>> Normally I would agree with you, but Eclipse has made so many leaps
>> and bounds that it's just as (or really really close) easy to use.
>>
>
> Could elaborate a little on what Eclipse does that is so great? I use
> Netbeans right now and I think it's the bomb. Plus Matisse is free on
> NB. ^_^ But if there's a reason to move to Eclipse I'd like to at least
> hear about it.

The main thing is that the incremental compiler gives you a much more
"alive" sense of what you're doing -- and Build is typically subsecond.
I've been mucking about a little with NetBeans, but I have to say that,
after Eclipse, it feels clunky.

I've been doing this since 1965. I've used punched cards, Selectric
terminals, ISPF/PDF, and quite a few PC IDEs. NetBeans feels like Yet
Another IDE. Eclipse feels like The Next Step. It makes the left side of
my brain dance.

--
John W. Kennedy
"The pathetic hope that the White House will turn a Caligula into a
Marcus Aurelius is as naïve as the fear that ultimate power inevitably
corrupts."
-- James D. Barber (1930-2004)
* TagZilla 0.066 * http://tagzilla.mozdev.org

samir wrote:
> I wasn't really amazed of the number of pages listed. I can imagine
> the frustration of some newbie when, first, tweeking the installation
> or struggling with some IDEs that consume "astronomical" (three years
> ago, my computer had 16mb of ram : )

You used an outdated computer 3 years ago. Not really Javas fault.

> amounts of memory. But the
> biggest problem, I think, is java's coolest part: The huge availale
> classes and source code . For some one that likes programming it's a
> source of frustration. First, you know that what ever you're doing
> have been done. Then, you get simply lost when learning: What class'
> should I start with? How do I choose one?...
>
> For the rest, the problem is with java the programming language (not
> the virtual machine): Java is seen by many people as a toy programming
> language. No multiple inheritance, garbage collection and the
> templates are childish.

I think most agree that multiple inheritance and explicit deallocation
of memory is a bad thing.

C++ templates can do some things that Java generics can not. And
vice versa. They are simply relative different concepts.

> For me, all the staff above wasn't my problem. My problem was with
> accepting that such an amazing VM that can run on multiple
> achitectures is being wasted using such an archaic programming
> language. So, I've tried some of the available
> "alternatives" (unfortunately, most of these alternatives aren't yet
> ready to compete with Java). The one that had my attention the most is
> Jython. The power of python within a Java VM
>
> So, I started tweeking the beast and found that, not only programming
> was more fun, but also more productive: It's not about reducing the
> number of lines in program, but it's about reducing the time needed
> for debugging and praying that the thing will work.

If you like that type of language then fine. You may also want
to check JRuby and Groovy out.

I do not think you need to try jgnat (Ada).



> What I want to say that Java (as a VM) is a cool and Java (the
> programming language) is a lesser thing.

Your choice.

One size does not fit all.

Arne

Mark Space wrote:
> Jason Cavett wrote:
>> On Mar 12, 3:07 pm, "CIndy Lee" <danparker...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Visual Stuido's IDE just makes things to easy.
>>
>> Normally I would agree with you, but Eclipse has made so many leaps
>> and bounds that it's just as (or really really close) easy to use.
>
> Could elaborate a little on what Eclipse does that is so great? I use
> Netbeans right now and I think it's the bomb. Plus Matisse is free on
> NB. ^_^ But if there's a reason to move to Eclipse I'd like to at least
> hear about it.

Hm. VE is free on Eclipse too. You may prefer Matisse over VE, but
I do not understand the "free" point.

Arne

CIndy Lee wrote:
> Because .net 2.0 destroys it. It's so much easier to get things done
> with .net. Visual Stuido's IDE just makes things to easy.

Considering that a .NET user is stupid enough to post something
like that in a Java newsgroup, then one can have some doubts
about what .NET is going to destroy ...

Arne

samir wrote:
> On Mar 12, 8:37 pm, r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) wrote:
>> "samir" <samirbena...@linuxmail.org> writes:
>>> Today, I've googled for "i (...) java" and "java (...)".
>>> I wasn't really amazed of the number of pages listed.
>> »There are just two kinds of languages: the ones everybody
>> complains about and the ones nobody uses.«
>>
>> (Bjarne Stroustrup)
>
> Python do not belong to any of those two categories

Python is not that widely used.

Arne

samir <> wrote:
> On Mar 12, 8:19 pm, Chris Smith <cdsm...@twu.net> wrote:
> > I doubt it. The biggest problem, almost certainly, is that like any
> > other worthwhile programming language, Java requires that you adjust
> > your frame of thinking a little.
>
> Have you ever used Stackless Python, Scheme or encountred the concept
> of generators or coroutines? You really need to adjust your frame of
> thinking to get those things

There was another ingredient I forgot that helps give rise to the
sometimes severe hatred of Java: people are forced to use it. Because
of Java's market position, a large number of people need to learn it in
order to remain employed (or, perhaps, employable).

Many other languages, including those you mention above, lack that
ingredient. By and large, the majority of their users have made the
choice to use them. That insulates them from bad will, to an extent.
You can bet that the very instant that Scheme is adopted by a large
number of corporate products with large development teams, you'll see
far more hatred tossed around for Scheme than you ever did for Java.

--
Chris Smith

samir wrote:
> Today, I've googled for "i hate java" and "java sucks".
>
> I wasn't really amazed of the number of pages listed. I can imagine
> the frustration of some newbie when, first, tweeking the installation
> or struggling with some IDEs that consume "astronomical" (three years
> ago, my computer had 16mb of ram : ) amounts of memory. But the
> biggest problem, I think, is java's coolest part: The huge availale
> classes and source code . For some one that likes programming it's a
> source of frustration. First, you know that what ever you're doing
> have been done. Then, you get simply lost when learning: What class'
> should I start with? How do I choose one?...

Looking at the CS curriculum and experiences of fellow students, I can
see why some people hate Java: it's the first programming language they
use and it's difficult for them. I know many people who get caught up in
one annoying bug and then blast it as a reason that XYZ "sucks" or
"should rot in hell", etc. Even more experience: I know people who hate
programming in C because of the difficulty with pointers.

> For the rest, the problem is with java the programming language (not
> the virtual machine): Java is seen by many people as a toy programming
> language. No multiple inheritance, garbage collection and the
> templates are childish.

Multiple inheritance can get quickly problematic, AI used LISP mostly
because it had GC, and C++ templates can get ugly sometimes (STL,
anyone?). People will complain that Java goes too far/not enough until
the end of time.

> For me, all the staff above wasn't my problem. My problem was with
> accepting that such an amazing VM that can run on multiple
> achitectures is being wasted using such an archaic programming
> language. So, I've tried some of the available
> "alternatives" (unfortunately, most of these alternatives aren't yet
> ready to compete with Java). The one that had my attention the most is
> Jython. The power of python within a Java VM

Python -- the most backwards-incompatible language I've ever seen. As a
side note, Java (the VM) is the most backwards-compatible language I've
ever seen. Between Java 1.0 and Java 1.6, despite all of the features
implemented on the programming language, functionally, the only changes
in the virtual machine have been a shift in invokespecial, the
deprecation of jsr/ret, and the newer, more stringent bytecode
verification. If you changed a class version 50.0 to 45.0, /the code
would still run/. That's impressive.