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How Sun makes money from Java since it develops it and gives to everybodyfor free?

 
 
Oliver Wong
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      03-09-2007

"RedGrittyBrick" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> Skip Hollowell wrote:
>> RedGrittyBrick wrote:
>>> From a recent thread in comp.lang.java.*, I believe Eclipse uses it's
>>> own compiler, not the JDK.

>
> This is the thread I was referring to
> http://groups.google.com/group/comp....51ab7af3b2f57d
>
>
>> If I am not mistaken, and I would bet a shiny penny that I am not,
>> Eclipse uses whatever JVM is default on your machine. You can setup
>> others once Eclipse is running, though.

>
> I said "compiler". You are talking about the runtime environment. These
> are not the same thing! A JVM is not used to compile Java source to
> bytecode.


Eclipse definitely uses a different compiler than the one shipped in
Sun's JDK: the two compilers exhibit a different set of bugs. I've posted
a few threads here where I'm asking for help for a bug I'm stumped with,
and after a couple of people tell me they can't reproduce the problem, we
eventually tracked it down to Eclipse's compiler generating slightly
different bytecode than Sun's compiler.

- Oliver


 
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John W. Kennedy
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      03-10-2007
Christian wrote:
> It seems to be a strategical investment for them to lower the market
> share of .NET .


Historically, it's the other way around: .NET was designed as a Java killer.

--
John W. Kennedy
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Lew
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      03-10-2007
"RedGrittyBrick" wrote ...
>> I said "compiler". You are talking about the runtime environment. These
>> are not the same thing! A JVM is not used to compile Java source to
>> bytecode.


Oliver Wong wrote:
> Eclipse definitely uses a different compiler than the one shipped in
> Sun's JDK: the two compilers exhibit a different set of bugs. I've posted
> a few threads here where I'm asking for help for a bug I'm stumped with,
> and after a couple of people tell me they can't reproduce the problem, we
> eventually tracked it down to Eclipse's compiler generating slightly
> different bytecode than Sun's compiler.


And delivers different compiler warnings and errors.

-- Lew
 
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John T
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      03-10-2007
Lew wrote:
> "RedGrittyBrick" wrote ...
>
>>> I said "compiler". You are talking about the runtime environment.
>>> These are not the same thing! A JVM is not used to compile Java
>>> source to bytecode.

>
>
> Oliver Wong wrote:
>
>> Eclipse definitely uses a different compiler than the one shipped
>> in Sun's JDK: the two compilers exhibit a different set of bugs. I've
>> posted a few threads here where I'm asking for help for a bug I'm
>> stumped with, and after a couple of people tell me they can't
>> reproduce the problem, we eventually tracked it down to Eclipse's
>> compiler generating slightly different bytecode than Sun's compiler.

>
>
> And delivers different compiler warnings and errors.
>
> -- Lew

I understand what you are saying. However, if Eclipse uses its own
compiler, which obviously it does, how can we be guaranteed that if a
program is written for JDK1.6 and Eclipse compiles it sucessfully that
it would run from the command line just using the proper CLASSPATH
variable with a java my_program command?
 
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Chris Uppal
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      03-10-2007
John T wrote:

>[...] if Eclipse uses its own
> compiler, which obviously it does, how can we be guaranteed that if a
> program is written for JDK1.6 and Eclipse compiles it sucessfully that
> it would run from the command line just using the proper CLASSPATH
> variable with a java my_program command?


There is always a possibility of bugs, of course, but the chance of that
causing serious problems should be fairly slim. There are several reasons...

One is that what we call the Java "compiler" is actually a /translator/ -- it
converts from one high-level, OO, language (called "Java") to another, very
similar, high-level, OO, language (called "JVM bytecode"). Those two languages
are both pretty well specified, and the mapping between them is also fairly
well tied down by the specs, so there isn't that much room for interpretation.
And, since they are so /very/ similar, there isn't a lot of room for error
either. (BTW, when I say, "very similar" I mean more similar than C and Pascal
are to each other, for instance). The Java spec has become pretty complicated
over the years, but most of the bugs in javac or Eclipse seem to be (and have
been) in the type-checking parts (which are the most complicated), and errors
there don't usually have any effect at runtime. That's to say: the JDK
compiler and the Eclipse compiler might disagree on whether some code was legal
at all, but if they both were willing to compile it then they would probably
produce equivalent results.

Secondly, the Eclipse people have quite a lot of time to study upcoming Sun
releases and (presumably) plenty of opportunity to talk to the people at Sum.
And vice versa. So there should be a fair degree of agreement between the two
teams -- remember, they are not in competition with each other.

Lastly, since Eclipse uses Sun's (or whoever's) JVM as the runtime for the code
you create and test, it doesn't really matter very much if they differ. You
will, presumably, test your code on the kind(s) of JVM that your users will
have, or onto which you will deploy your webservers. So, provided the tests
work, you have a reasonable assurance of safety. Of course, if you expect to
be shipping your code to run on a variety of different JVMs then you should
expand your testing program -- but there's nothing new about that... You
aren't going to be shipping Java source to your customers (usually) so it
doesn't matter whether the bytecode you ship depends in some obscure way on the
compiler you use to generate it -- what matters is whether that bytecode will
run the same on the customers' JVMs as it does in your testing environment.

-- chris



 
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Chris Smith
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      03-11-2007
www <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> Not fully follow you. Suppose Sun has 200 employees: 100 writing Java to
> distribute for free, 100 writing servers to sell.


By servers, Skip means hardware. It's more like building servers.

> Another company can
> have only 100 employees and all of them writing servers for sell, since
> they can get Java from Sun.


Sun sells servers that are generally used to run the Solaris or Linux
operating systems, not Windows. The idea is that if they can make it
easy to develop applications that run portably on all kinds of servers,
then there will be more chance that people will buy their servers. If
server programmers have to choose an operating system to target, many of
them will choose Windows and Sun will be excluded from the market. If
they write portable applications, then Sun can compete on a fair playing
field with other server manufacturers on the basis of customer service,
performance, etc. Obviously, they believe they can do okay on such a
playing field.

The other part of it is that Sun makes a fair bit of money licensing
Java-related software to other vendors. Although they give away the
JRE, they charge BEA and IBM plenty of money to license their base J2EE
platform. In turn, BEA and IBM can sell their augmented J2EE
implementations. Many companies will buy J2EE implementations from BEA
or IBM because they get a high level of customer support, training, etc.
WebLogic can cost tens of thousands of dollars for a minimal
installation, and up to millions for something more complex! Some of
each of those purchases is funneled back to Sun.


You also asked about Eclipse. Eclipse is a more traditional open source
project, so some of its code is just written because people want to,
much like Linux or XFree86. The biggest company behind Eclipse, though,
is IBM, and they also make plenty of money off of it. By making Eclipse
open source, people will go in an do whatever they can to make sure that
it's a relly great basic Java IDE. IBM then sells a commercial version
that adds integration with WebSphere and other advanced features. When
a feature starts to become commoditized because a number of vendors have
it, IBM can donate it to the core Eclipse platform, and they no longer
have to do all the work to maintain it. They can spend more of their
development effort developing new features that distinguish their
product from commercial competitors, rather than playing catch-up by
fixing editor bugs.

(That overstates the case a bit; IBM does spend a LOT of effort
maintaining Eclipse; but they save something versus trying to maintain,
or even do QA for, the whole thing themselves.)

--
Chris Smith
 
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trstag75@yahoo.fr
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      03-11-2007
On Mar 9, 6:18 pm, www <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I guess here is not the right place to ask. But I don't know the right
> place. Sorry.
>
> I am a Java developer. I am just curious how this works out. Sun hires
> people and write Java, the language. Since Sun releases it for free, how
> Sun makes the benefits out of it?


Sun sells hardware, for one. Then, by making Java free (and now
open source), Sun managed to spread Java in a few years to about
every single industry. The companies using Java now aren't
dependent on a single software vendor anymore. Thus, by making
Java free, Sun is really harming a competitor here. They did the
same with OpenOffice.org, which started as a commercial software
and which is now LGPL (yup, LGPL, not GPL). OpenOffice.org is
spreading like fire in Europe: in companies, administration, for
personnal use, etc. This is also harming in a big way a competitor.
A competitor that otherwise could maybe have been able to spread
its monopoly (illegally, but that is another topic) to the server
market.

Sun makes money on the hardware, so they don't mind to make
software a commodity when they can now. Just like with Solaris,
that is getting more and more open.

Besides that, Sun is making money on all the "smart Java cards"
and on the J2ME VM.

There are countries now where each and every citizen is carrying
a Java smart card as an identity piece, enough said...

If I'm not mistaken there are 3 main J2ME VM makers and Sun is
one of them. The amount of cellphones running Java in the
world *dwarfes* the number of desktop/servers running Java.
J2ME VMs used to be expensive and only recently did one company
make its J2ME VM implementation open.

Adoption of Java in various environment, most notably cellphones
and JavaCard also drives the need for Sun servers.

There's a saying at Sun that: "adoption of the Java platform
is a leading indicator of Sun's business"

http://blogs.sun.com/jonathan/entry/the_dot_in_2_0


 
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Lew
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      03-11-2007
http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed) wrote:
> There's a saying at Sun that: "adoption of the Java platform
> is a leading indicator of Sun's business"
>
> http://blogs.sun.com/jonathan/entry/the_dot_in_2_0


So if Java slows down we should sell our Sun stock?

-- Lew
 
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David Orriss Jr
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      03-11-2007
Lew wrote:

> (E-Mail Removed) wrote:
> > There's a saying at Sun that: "adoption of the Java platform
> > is a leading indicator of Sun's business"
> >
> > http://blogs.sun.com/jonathan/entry/the_dot_in_2_0

>
> So if Java slows down we should sell our Sun stock?
>
> -- Lew


You actually own stock in Sun?

--
"My first thought was, he lied in every word,
That hoary cripple, with malicious eye
Askance to watch the working of his lie"

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Karl Uppiano
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      03-11-2007

"www" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:essa24$627$(E-Mail Removed)...
> Skip Hollowell wrote:
>> Ahh, the money isn't in the hammers. It's in the nails, wood, and the
>> toolboxes.
>>
>> Sun sells servers. Bigger better java apps need, in theory, bigger
>> better (i.e. more expensive) servers. And with luck, you buy their
>> servers, because you know where your bread is butters (or your nail is
>> hammered, to continue the metaphor.)

>
> Not fully follow you. Suppose Sun has 200 employees: 100 writing Java to
> distribute for free, 100 writing servers to sell. Another company can have
> only 100 employees and all of them writing servers for sell, since they
> can get Java from Sun. Does Sun keep some secrets so that they are the
> only one which can develop servers?


I'm not sure what the ratio is, but I don't think it is that clear cut. The
JEE servers require Java to run, so Sun develops that. They give it away so
that developers will be familiar with the environment. Those developers will
be more successful using JEE, and there will be some vendor "lock-in" as a
result (not entirely, because you can get JEE servers from BEA, IBM, Oracle,
Sun... but this gives Sun a nice airy, warm fuzzy feeling). Just having its
name attached to a very popular programming language can't hurt either.


 
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