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Computer toasted?

 
 
mike4ty4@yahoo.com
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Posts: n/a
 
      10-28-2006

w_tom wrote:
> http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed) wrote:
> > ...
> > But IS IT SAFE to test the power supply in the way you describe?

>
> You performed major surgery - replaced a power supply. And now you
> ask about safety? Capacitors inside a disconnected power supply can
> store far more dangerous charges? Did you know voltages inside your
> car battery could be more dangerous?
>
> Your questions were answered in the previous post that included
> pictures and this link http://tinyurl.com/qcvuq . You did major
> surgery. You disconnected wires. Such surgery is not necessary in
> posted procedure / pictures AND such can cause changes that either
> masks a problem or that exponentially complicate the problem. Simply
> disconnecting and reconnecting the power supply connector could have
> eliminated (temporarily) those reboots and not solved the problem.
>
> How would a meter find the problem? Return to and read the earlier
> post that stated exact how and why the meter does its job. Why did you
> not even view the pictures? Earlier post answered your questions.
>
> Meanwhile, it could not overheat with heatsink ajar. Overheating
> would have been likely - and occurred so fast that temperature would
> not be noted fast enough. Your numbers only confirm what we knew
> happened when you said, "Intel".


Well, I've done the tests described on the websites you gave, on the
new power supply. Haven't done the old one yet, but the new one is the
one that was in the computer at the time it gave up the ghost.

-----------
Checked the power cord, it was OK.

Power supply test result with voltmeter:

---
The power supply fan spun up OK when the green & black wires on the
M/B connector were connected as the websites described

The drive connectors gave 12 V

The M/B connector:

Yellow->black wires (12 V) read values around 12.5 V. The websites you
referred me to said that under 11 V it would not be reliable and under
10.5 it wouldn't boot.

Pin #9 had 5 V

Note: All power supply tests were done without any load connected, the
thing was disconnected from everything inside the computer.

The button switch on the case tested OK.
---
-----------

Also, what do you mean by the CPU could "not" overheat w/ the
heatsink ajar? To me that would ensure that it WOULD overheat...
Also the heatsink was NOT ajar, it was in there good and secure,
and the CPU cooling fan worked OK.

 
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Rich Wilson
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-29-2006

"A Colored Guy" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>I downloaded new messages from 24hoursupport.helpdesk on 28 Oct 2006
> 03:46:15 -0700, and "w_tom" <(E-Mail Removed)> vomited forth this bit
> of wisdom :
>
>>(E-Mail Removed) wrote:
>>> ...
>>> But IS IT SAFE to test the power supply in the way you describe?

>>
>> You performed major surgery - replaced a power supply. And now you
>>ask about safety? Capacitors inside a disconnected power supply can
>>store far more dangerous charges? Did you know voltages inside your
>>car battery could be more dangerous?
>>
>> Your questions were answered in the previous post that included
>>pictures and this link http://tinyurl.com/qcvuq . You did major
>>surgery. You disconnected wires. Such surgery is not necessary in
>>posted procedure / pictures AND such can cause changes that either
>>masks a problem or that exponentially complicate the problem. Simply
>>disconnecting and reconnecting the power supply connector could have
>>eliminated (temporarily) those reboots and not solved the problem.
>>
>> How would a meter find the problem? Return to and read the earlier
>>post that stated exact how and why the meter does its job. Why did you
>>not even view the pictures? Earlier post answered your questions.
>>
>> Meanwhile, it could not overheat with heatsink ajar. Overheating
>>would have been likely - and occurred so fast that temperature would
>>not be noted fast enough. Your numbers only confirm what we knew
>>happened when you said, "Intel".

>
> I still think it was his power cord.


Yep, sounds like exactly what happens when you don't push the power
connector in far enough, or when there's a loose connection in the cord.

If we say it enough times, someone might listen!


 
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w_tom
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-29-2006
I am not sure what was just posted. Was that power supply in the
computer and connected to motherboard when powered? You cannot jumper
to green wire to conduct useful measurements. Power supply must be
connected to rest of its power supply 'system' and must be loaded by
rest of computer.. Otherwise the test is useless. Otherwise numbers
tell us noting more than the green illuminated light.

Looking back at cited posts, my post did not provide numbers - wrong
post was cited. Those websites provided numbers that are too low and
not useful. Websites now only provide pictures of how to touch meter
probes to pins. But meter should be used without disconnecting
anything inside a computer.

Essential are three digit voltages for each wire - green, gray,
purple, red, orange, and yellow. Any voltage below 3.23, 4.87, or 11.7
means defect. If 12 volts was at 11, the system had long since and
obviously failed. Furthermore, providing those numbers can provide
other information. Voltages on green, gray, and purple wire - what
they do before and when switch is pressed - are useful facts.

Obvously power cord was connected as indicated (in an earlier post)
by illuminated green light.

Heatsink ajar: some CPUs without an attached heatsink literally burn
- vaporize inside. If the CPU was an AMD and was powered it without
the heatsink, then CPU would have burned - toasted - become a paper
weight. Just another example of why major surgery can be hazardous,
and why we collect facts without changing anything. However, you are
lucky. You had an Intel chip that contains protection if the heatsink
is ajar. An Intel CPU will not overheat even without a spinning fan or
without heatsink firmly attached.

Meanwhile, testing a power supply without the rest of a power supply
'system' and without a load reports little that is useful. Jumpering
that green to black wire only says why the previous green light
illuminated - that power supply cord works. Power supply must be
attached as if it was never removed. Originally noted, power supply
'system' can be confirmed in less than two minutes using only a
multimeter.

(E-Mail Removed) wrote:
> Well, I've done the tests described on the websites you gave, on the
> new power supply. Haven't done the old one yet, but the new one is the
> one that was in the computer at the time it gave up the ghost.
>
> -----------
> Checked the power cord, it was OK.
>
> Power supply test result with voltmeter:
>
> ---
> The power supply fan spun up OK when the green & black wires on the
> M/B connector were connected as the websites described
>
> The drive connectors gave 12 V
>
> The M/B connector:
>
> Yellow->black wires (12 V) read values around 12.5 V. The websites you
> referred me to said that under 11 V it would not be reliable and under
> 10.5 it wouldn't boot.
>
> Pin #9 had 5 V
>
> Note: All power supply tests were done without any load connected, the
> thing was disconnected from everything inside the computer.
>
> The button switch on the case tested OK.
> ---
> -----------
>
> Also, what do you mean by the CPU could "not" overheat w/ the
> heatsink ajar? To me that would ensure that it WOULD overheat...
> Also the heatsink was NOT ajar, it was in there good and secure,
> and the CPU cooling fan worked OK.


 
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mike4ty4@yahoo.com
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-29-2006

w_tom wrote:
> I am not sure what was just posted. Was that power supply in the
> computer and connected to motherboard when powered? You cannot jumper
> to green wire to conduct useful measurements. Power supply must be
> connected to rest of its power supply 'system' and must be loaded by
> rest of computer.. Otherwise the test is useless. Otherwise numbers
> tell us noting more than the green illuminated light.
>


I cannot even power it up with it connected to the motherboard. When I
push the switch it does not start. Since it has to go through the
motherboard,
I think that's where the problem is. When I jumpered the green to black
wire like it said, the power supply fan came on, and then I proceeded
to
measure the voltages from the wires going into the MB connector. The
numbers agreed with what was given on the sites -- 12V lines gave
around 12V (some registered around 12.5 V, is that too high? Could it
have
*over*loaded something in the computer? Would that explain the tilting
killing it?), 5V ones gave 5V, etc. Since the fan was able to start, I
therefore think the problem is between the switch and the power supply
--
the motherboard. It could have overheated perhaps due to lack of a
running
case fan, it could have died of old age, etc. If the power supply
failed so
bad as to not even run it's fan then why does "hotwiring" it start it?

> Looking back at cited posts, my post did not provide numbers - wrong
> post was cited. Those websites provided numbers that are too low and
> not useful. Websites now only provide pictures of how to touch meter
> probes to pins. But meter should be used without disconnecting
> anything inside a computer.
>



You have to disconnect a connector to test it. Can you measure through
insulated wires? What? Strip the insulation off? The website didn't say
to
do that...

> Essential are three digit voltages for each wire - green, gray,
> purple, red, orange, and yellow. Any voltage below 3.23, 4.87, or 11.7
> means defect. If 12 volts was at 11, the system had long since and
> obviously failed. Furthermore, providing those numbers can provide
> other information. Voltages on green, gray, and purple wire - what
> they do before and when switch is pressed - are useful facts.
>


How do you test that with the darned thing plugged into the motherboard
and the pins/etc. inaccessible? (you can't connect things to a
connector
that is already connected to something. That should be obvious.) You
have to pull out SOME plug in order to test it. D'oh! And by "long
since"
failed, remember that this power supply was brand new... are you
saying there was a manufacturing defect? Not that such a thing is
impossible, just is that what you are saying?

> Obvously power cord was connected as indicated (in an earlier post)
> by illuminated green light.
>
> Heatsink ajar: some CPUs without an attached heatsink literally burn
> - vaporize inside. If the CPU was an AMD and was powered it without
> the heatsink, then CPU would have burned - toasted - become a paper
> weight. Just another example of why major surgery can be hazardous,
> and why we collect facts without changing anything. However, you are
> lucky. You had an Intel chip that contains protection if the heatsink
> is ajar. An Intel CPU will not overheat even without a spinning fan or
> without heatsink firmly attached.
>


And the heatsink is firmly attached & the CPU fan ran, so that is not
the
problem. Amd yes, I have seen the video of the AMD chip roasting
itself.
There was even another video where it actually _exploded_ and blew
a hole in the motherboard, although I've been told that that one was a
hoax.

> Meanwhile, testing a power supply without the rest of a power supply
> 'system' and without a load reports little that is useful. Jumpering
> that green to black wire only says why the previous green light
> illuminated - that power supply cord works. Power supply must be
> attached as if it was never removed. Originally noted, power supply
> 'system' can be confirmed in less than two minutes using only a
> multimeter.
>


I tested all the connections on the M/B connector. I followed the
instructions
on the website, which says nothing about plugging it into the MB and
somehow
measuring through insulated wires.

> (E-Mail Removed) wrote:
> > Well, I've done the tests described on the websites you gave, on the
> > new power supply. Haven't done the old one yet, but the new one is the
> > one that was in the computer at the time it gave up the ghost.
> >
> > -----------
> > Checked the power cord, it was OK.
> >
> > Power supply test result with voltmeter:
> >
> > ---
> > The power supply fan spun up OK when the green & black wires on the
> > M/B connector were connected as the websites described
> >
> > The drive connectors gave 12 V
> >
> > The M/B connector:
> >
> > Yellow->black wires (12 V) read values around 12.5 V. The websites you
> > referred me to said that under 11 V it would not be reliable and under
> > 10.5 it wouldn't boot.
> >
> > Pin #9 had 5 V
> >
> > Note: All power supply tests were done without any load connected, the
> > thing was disconnected from everything inside the computer.
> >
> > The button switch on the case tested OK.
> > ---
> > -----------
> >
> > Also, what do you mean by the CPU could "not" overheat w/ the
> > heatsink ajar? To me that would ensure that it WOULD overheat...
> > Also the heatsink was NOT ajar, it was in there good and secure,
> > and the CPU cooling fan worked OK.


 
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w_tom
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-29-2006
Again, disconnect nothing. When connected to the motherboard,
power switch does nothing. Now we have important facts. Dead bodies
always tell us useful information. Again, before pressing power
switch, what are the voltages on gray, green, and purple wires? And
what does meter demonstrate when power switch is pressed? Without
those numbers, nobody can provide useful information.

Again, notice what is the most important fact. The numbers. Purple
wire must provide a voltage that is above 4.87 when computer appears
completely dead. A voltage that exists if power cord is connected to
wall receptacle. A purple wire voltage that does not change when power
switch is pressed. Green wire is what voltage when computer is not
powered - before power switch is pressed? It should be more than 2.0
volts. When power switch is pressed, that voltage must drop down to
less than 0.8 volts. Does it? And what are those values?

Gray wire is near zero volts when computer is powered off (and whn
purple wire has more than 4.87 volts). What does that wire do when
power switch is pressed? Does it rise above 2.4 volts? Does it stay
above 2.4 volts? How high does it remain?

These are useful facts about the entire power supply 'system'. Only
useful information is what 'system' does - not just the power supply.

Damage due to overheating is promoted by myths. Heat is a tool to
find intemittent or to find failures before those failures are
apparent. Don't worry about heat. Those who grap for solutions
without first learning facts will blame only what they understand. IOW
they worry about heat - and then cure symptoms. One case fan is more
than enough for any system. But those who don't first learn technology
and the numbers want more fans.

Why did hotwire (green wire jumper) cause power supply to work?
Again, we have no idea because the reasons are so long and because the
power system is not part of a power supply 'system'. Problem may be
inside power supply. Or problem may be in rest of power supply
'system'.

Websites had changed since I last saw them. If they discuss
disconnecting anything to take a reading, then ignore it. A white
nylone 20 pin connector to motherboard has holes where each wire
enters. Push probes into those same holes to get a meter reading.
Again, no reason to strip any wire or disconnect anything to make
necessary voltage readings. No reason to disconnect anything until
facts tell us where to look. Every wire is accessible.

Again, website was cited mostly for the pictures on how to use probe
and read a meter. And since then, web sites may have added facts
erroneous. Do not follow their instructions. Take voltages as I have
posted. No disconnections.

(E-Mail Removed) wrote:
> ...
> I cannot even power it up with it connected to the motherboard. When I
> push the switch it does not start. Since it has to go through the
> motherboard,
> I think that's where the problem is. When I jumpered the green to black
> wire like it said, the power supply fan came on, and then I proceeded
> to
> measure the voltages from the wires going into the MB connector. The
> numbers agreed with what was given on the sites -- 12V lines gave
> around 12V (some registered around 12.5 V, is that too high? Could it
> have *over*loaded something in the computer? Would that explain the
> tilting killing it?), 5V ones gave 5V, etc. Since the fan was able to start,
> I therefore think the problem is between the switch and the power supply
> --
> the motherboard. It could have overheated perhaps due to lack of a
> running case fan, it could have died of old age, etc. If the power
> supply failed so bad as to not even run it's fan then why does
> "hotwiring" it start it?
> ...
>
> You have to disconnect a connector to test it. Can you measure through
> insulated wires? What? Strip the insulation off? The website didn't say
> to do that...
> ...
>
> How do you test that with the darned thing plugged into the motherboard
> and the pins/etc. inaccessible? (you can't connect things to a
> connector that is already connected to something. That should be
> obvious.) You have to pull out SOME plug in order to test it. D'oh! And
> by "long since" failed, remember that this power supply was brand
> new... are you saying there was a manufacturing defect? Not that such
> a thing is impossible, just is that what you are saying?
> ...
>
> And the heatsink is firmly attached & the CPU fan ran, so that is not
> the problem. Amd yes, I have seen the video of the AMD chip
> roasting itself. There was even another video where it
> actually _exploded_ and blew a hole in the motherboard, although
> I've been told that that one was a hoax.
> ...
>
> I tested all the connections on the M/B connector. I followed the
> instructions on the website, which says nothing about plugging it
> into the MB and somehow measuring through insulated wires.


 
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Meat Plow
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-29-2006


>> You performed major surgery - replaced a power supply. And now you
>> ask about safety? Capacitors inside a disconnected power supply can
>> store far more dangerous charges? Did you know voltages inside your car
>> battery could be more dangerous?


Caps in a high voltage supply could be dangerous, not a PC power supply.
The voltage in a car battery won't hurt you. However the current could
burn you if you shunted the terminals.

--
Pierre Salinger Memorial Hook, Line & Sinker, June 2004

COOSN-266-06-25794
 
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mike4ty4@yahoo.com
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-29-2006

w_tom wrote:
> Again, disconnect nothing. When connected to the motherboard,
> power switch does nothing. Now we have important facts. Dead bodies
> always tell us useful information. Again, before pressing power
> switch, what are the voltages on gray, green, and purple wires? And
> what does meter demonstrate when power switch is pressed? Without
> those numbers, nobody can provide useful information.
>


How do I test it with everything connected, plug in the motherboard? I
need to get at that plug to test it! You can't get the meter probes
into the
plug!

> Again, notice what is the most important fact. The numbers. Purple
> wire must provide a voltage that is above 4.87 when computer appears
> completely dead. A voltage that exists if power cord is connected to
> wall receptacle. A purple wire voltage that does not change when power
> switch is pressed. Green wire is what voltage when computer is not
> powered - before power switch is pressed? It should be more than 2.0
> volts. When power switch is pressed, that voltage must drop down to
> less than 0.8 volts. Does it? And what are those values?
>


How can I test it "when the power switch is pushed" with the CONNECTOR
PLUGGED INTO THE MOTHERBOARD AND THE PINS _INACCESSIBLE_?!?!?!?!

> Gray wire is near zero volts when computer is powered off (and whn
> purple wire has more than 4.87 volts). What does that wire do when
> power switch is pressed? Does it rise above 2.4 volts? Does it stay
> above 2.4 volts? How high does it remain?
>
> These are useful facts about the entire power supply 'system'. Only
> useful information is what 'system' does - not just the power supply.
>
> Damage due to overheating is promoted by myths. Heat is a tool to
> find intemittent or to find failures before those failures are
> apparent. Don't worry about heat. Those who grap for solutions
> without first learning facts will blame only what they understand. IOW
> they worry about heat - and then cure symptoms. One case fan is more
> than enough for any system. But those who don't first learn technology
> and the numbers want more fans.
>
> Why did hotwire (green wire jumper) cause power supply to work?
> Again, we have no idea because the reasons are so long and because the
> power system is not part of a power supply 'system'. Problem may be
> inside power supply. Or problem may be in rest of power supply
> 'system'.
>


Read the websites you pointed me to.

> Websites had changed since I last saw them. If they discuss
> disconnecting anything to take a reading, then ignore it. A white
> nylone 20 pin connector to motherboard has holes where each wire
> enters. Push probes into those same holes to get a meter reading.
> Again, no reason to strip any wire or disconnect anything to make
> necessary voltage readings. No reason to disconnect anything until
> facts tell us where to look. Every wire is accessible.
>


The holes already contain wires. How can I get the thick meter probes
into there? If I force them into there I may damage the connections and
create more problems. Haven't you looked at a power supply connector?
The wires go INTO it.

> Again, website was cited mostly for the pictures on how to use probe
> and read a meter. And since then, web sites may have added facts
> erroneous. Do not follow their instructions. Take voltages as I have
> posted. No disconnections.
>


So it's best to damage the connections then and create more problems.
That doesn't make sense.

> (E-Mail Removed) wrote:
> > ...
> > I cannot even power it up with it connected to the motherboard. When I
> > push the switch it does not start. Since it has to go through the
> > motherboard,
> > I think that's where the problem is. When I jumpered the green to black
> > wire like it said, the power supply fan came on, and then I proceeded
> > to
> > measure the voltages from the wires going into the MB connector. The
> > numbers agreed with what was given on the sites -- 12V lines gave
> > around 12V (some registered around 12.5 V, is that too high? Could it
> > have *over*loaded something in the computer? Would that explain the
> > tilting killing it?), 5V ones gave 5V, etc. Since the fan was able to start,
> > I therefore think the problem is between the switch and the power supply
> > --
> > the motherboard. It could have overheated perhaps due to lack of a
> > running case fan, it could have died of old age, etc. If the power
> > supply failed so bad as to not even run it's fan then why does
> > "hotwiring" it start it?
> > ...
> >
> > You have to disconnect a connector to test it. Can you measure through
> > insulated wires? What? Strip the insulation off? The website didn't say
> > to do that...
> > ...
> >
> > How do you test that with the darned thing plugged into the motherboard
> > and the pins/etc. inaccessible? (you can't connect things to a
> > connector that is already connected to something. That should be
> > obvious.) You have to pull out SOME plug in order to test it. D'oh! And
> > by "long since" failed, remember that this power supply was brand
> > new... are you saying there was a manufacturing defect? Not that such
> > a thing is impossible, just is that what you are saying?
> > ...
> >
> > And the heatsink is firmly attached & the CPU fan ran, so that is not
> > the problem. Amd yes, I have seen the video of the AMD chip
> > roasting itself. There was even another video where it
> > actually _exploded_ and blew a hole in the motherboard, although
> > I've been told that that one was a hoax.
> > ...
> >
> > I tested all the connections on the M/B connector. I followed the
> > instructions on the website, which says nothing about plugging it
> > into the MB and somehow measuring through insulated wires.


 
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Meat Plow
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-29-2006
On Sun, 29 Oct 2006 10:36:38 -0800, mike4ty4 Has Frothed:

> w_tom wrote:
>> Again, disconnect nothing. When connected to the motherboard, power
>> switch does nothing. Now we have important facts. Dead bodies always
>> tell us useful information. Again, before pressing power switch, what
>> are the voltages on gray, green, and purple wires? And what does meter
>> demonstrate when power switch is pressed? Without those numbers, nobody
>> can provide useful information.
>>
>>

> How do I test it with everything connected, plug in the motherboard? I
> need to get at that plug to test it! You can't get the meter probes into
> the
> plug!


Should be able to get your meter probe to the backside of the plug's pins.

--
Pierre Salinger Memorial Hook, Line & Sinker, June 2004

COOSN-266-06-25794
 
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mike4ty4@yahoo.com
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-29-2006

Meat Plow wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Oct 2006 10:36:38 -0800, mike4ty4 Has Frothed:
>
> > w_tom wrote:
> >> Again, disconnect nothing. When connected to the motherboard, power
> >> switch does nothing. Now we have important facts. Dead bodies always
> >> tell us useful information. Again, before pressing power switch, what
> >> are the voltages on gray, green, and purple wires? And what does meter
> >> demonstrate when power switch is pressed? Without those numbers, nobody
> >> can provide useful information.
> >>
> >>

> > How do I test it with everything connected, plug in the motherboard? I
> > need to get at that plug to test it! You can't get the meter probes into
> > the
> > plug!

>
> Should be able to get your meter probe to the backside of the plug's pins.
>


Won't that damage the wires? I mean I'm forcing something down into
there.
How thick/thin should the probes be (diameter of the metal leads that
you
stick in)?

PS. I also tried starting the computer with the OLD power supply and it
still
failed to run. So either both are bad or something else is.

> --
> Pierre Salinger Memorial Hook, Line & Sinker, June 2004
>
> COOSN-266-06-25794


 
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Meat Plow
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-29-2006
On Sun, 29 Oct 2006 11:35:44 -0800, mike4ty4 Has Frothed:

>
> Meat Plow wrote:
>> On Sun, 29 Oct 2006 10:36:38 -0800, mike4ty4 Has Frothed:
>>
>> > w_tom wrote:
>> >> Again, disconnect nothing. When connected to the motherboard, power
>> >> switch does nothing. Now we have important facts. Dead bodies
>> >> always tell us useful information. Again, before pressing power
>> >> switch, what are the voltages on gray, green, and purple wires? And
>> >> what does meter demonstrate when power switch is pressed? Without
>> >> those numbers, nobody can provide useful information.
>> >>
>> >>
>> > How do I test it with everything connected, plug in the motherboard? I
>> > need to get at that plug to test it! You can't get the meter probes
>> > into the
>> > plug!

>>
>> Should be able to get your meter probe to the backside of the plug's
>> pins.
>>
>>

> Won't that damage the wires? I mean I'm forcing something down into there.
> How thick/thin should the probes be (diameter of the metal leads that you
> stick in)?
>
> PS. I also tried starting the computer with the OLD power supply and it
> still
> failed to run. So either both are bad or something else is.


Shouldn't cause any damage. Might use a piece of a paper clip to get down
inside. Take a close look under decent lighting and look how the plug is
contructed.

--
Pierre Salinger Memorial Hook, Line & Sinker, June 2004

COOSN-266-06-25794
 
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