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Power supply fried, replaced it, computer won't start

 
 
David Matthew Wood
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Posts: n/a
 
      08-28-2006
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
"Rod Speed" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> David Matthew Wood <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote
>
> >> Poor quality power supplies have two very nasty habits:

>
> >> 1) They die early (that is GUARANTEED, btw),
> >> often shortly after leaving the factory
> >> 2) With no built-in component protection, they often take other
> >> components with them, when they die. In other words, cheap power
> >> supplies kill motherboards, hard drives, CPUs, RAM, etc.

>
> >> Your post is about TWO poor quality power supplies. I suspect that
> >> the first one died ungracefully, taking the motherboard out with it.
> >> The second one can't even power itself, apparently.

>
> >> It's your money, but people don't seem to understand that often
> >> spending an extra 40 bucks or so on a GOOD power supply can
> >> save a complete rebuild, costing hundreds of bucks. -Dave

>
> > Actually, I'm sure the power supply he bought from the
> > store is perfectly fine. Don't forget about "power good"!
> > If the power supply doesn't see this, it will not stay on.

>
> You've got that backwards, its PROVIDED by the
> power supply, not observed by the power supply.


It works both ways. Yes, it is provided by the power supply, and yes,
it is there to prevent the motherboard from starting up before the power
supply stabilizes.

However, on some power supplies, if there is a power surge or any other
issue (which can be caused by a fried component on the motherboard),
"Power Good" will also shut down the power supply if it malfunctions.
 
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David Matthew Wood
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Posts: n/a
 
      08-28-2006
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed) wrote:

> David Matthew Wood <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
> >
> >> Poor quality power supplies have two very nasty habits:
> >>
> >> 1) They die early (that is GUARANTEED, btw), often shortly after leaving
> >> the factory
> >> 2) With no built-in component protection, they often take other
> >> components
> >> with them, when they die. In other words, cheap power supplies kill
> >> motherboards, hard drives, CPUs, RAM, etc.
> >>
> >> Your post is about TWO poor quality power supplies. I suspect that the
> >> first one died ungracefully, taking the motherboard out with it. The
> >> second
> >> one can't even power itself, apparently.
> >>
> >> It's your money, but people don't seem to understand that often spending
> >> an
> >> extra 40 bucks or so on a GOOD power supply can save a complete rebuild,
> >> costing hundreds of bucks. -Dave

>
> >Actually, I'm sure the power supply he bought from the store is
> >perfectly fine. Don't forget about "power good"! If the power supply
> >doesn't see this, it will not stay on. That is how all ATX power
> >supplies are designed, and it is indeed built-in component protection.
> >If anything is shorting out (as could very well be the case here, since
> >his first power supply fried something), it will shut down a working
> >power supply.

>
> Good link on the Power Good Signal
> http://www.pcguide.com/ref/power/sup...werGood-c.html
> and how "Some extremely el-cheapo power supplies may "fake" the Power
> Good signal by just tying it to another +5 V line."


Yes, and while it doesn't directly have anything to do with Power Good,
such power supplies don't provide any protection either. If you try to
fire up a GOOD supply and it doesn't observe the correct loads (either
from not being properly connected or from something that is shorting),
it will shut down in order to prevent damage since it is bad for a power
supply to run without a load. Same goes with amps. If you power up an
amp and crank the volume without speakers attached, it will either a, go
into thermal shut down, or b, self-destruct.
 
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Rod Speed
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Posts: n/a
 
      08-28-2006
David Matthew Wood <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote
> Rod Speed <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote
>> David Matthew Wood <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote


>>>> Poor quality power supplies have two very nasty habits:


>>>> 1) They die early (that is GUARANTEED, btw),
>>>> often shortly after leaving the factory
>>>> 2) With no built-in component protection, they often take other
>>>> components with them, when they die. In other words, cheap power
>>>> supplies kill motherboards, hard drives, CPUs, RAM, etc.


>>>> Your post is about TWO poor quality power supplies. I suspect
>>>> that the first one died ungracefully, taking the motherboard out
>>>> with it. The second one can't even power itself, apparently.


>>>> It's your money, but people don't seem to understand that
>>>> often spending an extra 40 bucks or so on a GOOD power
>>>> supply can save a complete rebuild, costing hundreds of bucks.


>>> Actually, I'm sure the power supply he bought from the
>>> store is perfectly fine. Don't forget about "power good"!
>>> If the power supply doesn't see this, it will not stay on.


>> You've got that backwards, its PROVIDED by the
>> power supply, not observed by the power supply.


> It works both ways.


Nope, its an output FROM the power supply, not an input TO the power supply.

> Yes, it is provided by the power supply, and yes, it is there to prevent
> the motherboard from starting up before the power supply stabilizes.


Nothing like what you originally said.

> However, on some power supplies, if there is a power
> surge or any other issue (which can be caused by a
> fried component on the motherboard), "Power Good"
> will also shut down the power supply if it malfunctions.


Nope, again, its an output FROM the power supply and the power
supply is supposed to drop the power good signal if something has
gone bad power wise, mainly so the motherboard can restart after
a glitch that has seen the power supply shut down and then start again.

The power supply doesnt even notice a fried component
on the motherboard unless that produces a higher than
allowed current on one of the rails it produces.


 
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Rod Speed
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      08-28-2006
David Matthew Wood <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote
> (E-Mail Removed) wrote
>> David Matthew Wood <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote


>>>> Poor quality power supplies have two very nasty habits:


>>>> 1) They die early (that is GUARANTEED, btw), often shortly after
>>>> leaving the factory
>>>> 2) With no built-in component protection, they often take other
>>>> components
>>>> with them, when they die. In other words, cheap power supplies
>>>> kill motherboards, hard drives, CPUs, RAM, etc.


>>>> Your post is about TWO poor quality power supplies. I suspect
>>>> that the first one died ungracefully, taking the motherboard out
>>>> with it. The second one can't even power itself, apparently.


>>>> It's your money, but people don't seem to understand that
>>>> often spending an extra 40 bucks or so on a GOOD power
>>>> supply can save a complete rebuild, costing hundreds of bucks.


>>> Actually, I'm sure the power supply he bought from the store is
>>> perfectly fine. Don't forget about "power good"! If the power
>>> supply doesn't see this, it will not stay on. That is how all ATX
>>> power supplies are designed, and it is indeed built-in component
>>> protection. If anything is shorting out (as could very well be the
>>> case here, since his first power supply fried something), it will
>>> shut down a working power supply.


>> Good link on the Power Good Signal
>> http://www.pcguide.com/ref/power/sup...werGood-c.html
>> and how "Some extremely el-cheapo power supplies may "fake"
>> the Power Good signal by just tying it to another +5 V line."


> Yes, and while it doesn't directly have anything to do with Power
> Good, such power supplies don't provide any protection either.


You dont know that on that ANY claim.

> If you try to fire up a GOOD supply and it doesn't observe the correct
> loads (either from not being properly connected or from something that
> is shorting), it will shut down in order to prevent damage


Yes. But that is true even with cheap power supplys too.

Where they mostly fail is shutting down properly when the power supply fails.

> since it is bad for a power supply to run without a load.


Oh bullshit.

> Same goes with amps.


Nope, completely different.

> If you power up an amp and crank the volume without speakers attached,
> it will either a, go into thermal shut down, or b, self-destruct.


Utterly mangled all over again.


 
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DaveW
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      08-28-2006
When you use a "cheap" power supply unit ($35 for PSU & case) you run into
the problem that if the PSU fails it usually burns out the motherboard too.
High end PSU's usually do NOT do that; they include built in protection
circuits.

--
DaveW

----------------
"." <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> Yesterday morning, ten hours after I'd last powered my PC down, I turned
> it on and noticed immediately a burning "electrical fire" smell.
>
> Turned the computer off (using Windows shutdown first from the login
> screen), disconnected all peripherals and the power, opened the case.
> Attached the power cord only, started it, everything worked (hard drives
> were cycling, CPU fan going, motherboard lights on, etc.), but I noticed
> the smell again. I did some sniffing and it was definitely coming from
> the power supply. Then the computer just stopped.
>
> I am not a "hardware guy" but I did some research on the web, consulted
> with the friend who helped me build the computer, and it seemed pretty
> open and shut. The 350 watt supply that came with the case ($35 for
> case and supply) was to blame.
>
> So went to CompUSA today and picked up
> http://www.compusa.com/products/prod...ct_code=283768 -
> seemed to be a worthy "bang for the buck" 400-watt supply.
>
> http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/362/ is the instructions I
> followed.
>
> Before disconnecting the old PSU, I carefully labelled every connection,
> showing what it was connected to, and the orientation on the drive or
> board. (The PSU had a 20-pin connection to the motherboard, the ATX12V
> comnnector, and my computer has two hard drives, a DVD drive, and a 3.5"
> floppy.)
>
> Plugged the computer in, turned on the PSU, and nothing. Ultimately, I
> tried a known good power cord and the new cord that came with the PSU, a
> known working outlet, several permutations, nothing. The voltage
> selector is correct (115 volts) on the back of the PSU. When I apply
> power, the CPU fan turns for about two seconds then stops (no harsh or
> unusual noises - it was turning fine yesterday). The green light on the
> motherboard stays lit. But no drive lights come on, and no sign of any
> activity.
>
> I don't have a multimeter. I'm not an electrician or electrical
> engineer. I just want some suggestions on what might be wrong and how
> to fix it. FWIW, the motherboard seems to show no abuse; the capacitors
> all look shiny and intact.
>
> My friend who built the PC for me is traveling, and I will ultimately
> bring the computer to him and his extensive testbench if I can't figure
> this out myself. But I'm really at my wit's end now and am hoping for a
> few useful "try this" suggestions.



 
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David Matthew Wood
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      08-29-2006
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
"Rod Speed" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> David Matthew Wood <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote
> > (E-Mail Removed) wrote
> >> David Matthew Wood <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote

>
> >>>> Poor quality power supplies have two very nasty habits:

>
> >>>> 1) They die early (that is GUARANTEED, btw), often shortly after
> >>>> leaving the factory
> >>>> 2) With no built-in component protection, they often take other
> >>>> components
> >>>> with them, when they die. In other words, cheap power supplies
> >>>> kill motherboards, hard drives, CPUs, RAM, etc.

>
> >>>> Your post is about TWO poor quality power supplies. I suspect
> >>>> that the first one died ungracefully, taking the motherboard out
> >>>> with it. The second one can't even power itself, apparently.

>
> >>>> It's your money, but people don't seem to understand that
> >>>> often spending an extra 40 bucks or so on a GOOD power
> >>>> supply can save a complete rebuild, costing hundreds of bucks.

>
> >>> Actually, I'm sure the power supply he bought from the store is
> >>> perfectly fine. Don't forget about "power good"! If the power
> >>> supply doesn't see this, it will not stay on. That is how all ATX
> >>> power supplies are designed, and it is indeed built-in component
> >>> protection. If anything is shorting out (as could very well be the
> >>> case here, since his first power supply fried something), it will
> >>> shut down a working power supply.

>
> >> Good link on the Power Good Signal
> >> http://www.pcguide.com/ref/power/sup...werGood-c.html
> >> and how "Some extremely el-cheapo power supplies may "fake"
> >> the Power Good signal by just tying it to another +5 V line."

>
> > Yes, and while it doesn't directly have anything to do with Power
> > Good, such power supplies don't provide any protection either.

>
> You dont know that on that ANY claim.


What, that cheap POS power supplies don't shut down right away if
something is shorting? Well lets see. I have some sitting around that
will not power up at all because something in the machine shorted them
out. I have others sitting around that still power up and work just
fine after being shorted out, because they shut down right away before
damage was done.

>
> > If you try to fire up a GOOD supply and it doesn't observe the correct
> > loads (either from not being properly connected or from something that
> > is shorting), it will shut down in order to prevent damage

>
> Yes. But that is true even with cheap power supplys too.
>
> Where they mostly fail is shutting down properly when the power supply fails.


Shutting down before damage is done you mean. I've witnessed both.

A, something will short out and PS will smoke.
or
B, something will short out and PS will turn off. In which case, after
dealing with whatever caused the short, the power supply will come to
life and work just fine.

>
> > since it is bad for a power supply to run without a load.

>
> Oh bullshit.


Oh really? Why don't you try it then. Force a cheap power supply on
and let it run for a while without a load. See what happens.

>
> > Same goes with amps.

>
> Nope, completely different.
>
> > If you power up an amp and crank the volume without speakers attached,
> > it will either a, go into thermal shut down, or b, self-destruct.

>
> Utterly mangled all over again.


Again...oh really? Take a high current amplifier, give it an audio
feed, disconnect anything that will create a load on the outputs, crank
the levels, and see what happens.
 
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David Matthew Wood
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      08-29-2006
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
"Rod Speed" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> David Matthew Wood <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote
> > Rod Speed <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote
> >> David Matthew Wood <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote

>
> >>>> Poor quality power supplies have two very nasty habits:

>
> >>>> 1) They die early (that is GUARANTEED, btw),
> >>>> often shortly after leaving the factory
> >>>> 2) With no built-in component protection, they often take other
> >>>> components with them, when they die. In other words, cheap power
> >>>> supplies kill motherboards, hard drives, CPUs, RAM, etc.

>
> >>>> Your post is about TWO poor quality power supplies. I suspect
> >>>> that the first one died ungracefully, taking the motherboard out
> >>>> with it. The second one can't even power itself, apparently.

>
> >>>> It's your money, but people don't seem to understand that
> >>>> often spending an extra 40 bucks or so on a GOOD power
> >>>> supply can save a complete rebuild, costing hundreds of bucks.

>
> >>> Actually, I'm sure the power supply he bought from the
> >>> store is perfectly fine. Don't forget about "power good"!
> >>> If the power supply doesn't see this, it will not stay on.

>
> >> You've got that backwards, its PROVIDED by the
> >> power supply, not observed by the power supply.

>
> > It works both ways.

>
> Nope, its an output FROM the power supply, not an input TO the power supply.


It doesn't matter. Some supplies monitor that load. I have quite a few
that will shut down if load on PG does not exist.

>
> > Yes, it is provided by the power supply, and yes, it is there to prevent
> > the motherboard from starting up before the power supply stabilizes.

>
> Nothing like what you originally said.


No, I'm half agreeing with you about what power good is there for.

>
> > However, on some power supplies, if there is a power
> > surge or any other issue (which can be caused by a
> > fried component on the motherboard), "Power Good"
> > will also shut down the power supply if it malfunctions.

>
> Nope, again, its an output FROM the power supply and the power
> supply is supposed to drop the power good signal if something has
> gone bad power wise, mainly so the motherboard can restart after
> a glitch that has seen the power supply shut down and then start again.


And some supplies shut down completely. I have a few sitting right here
that will do that.

>
> The power supply doesnt even notice a fried component
> on the motherboard unless that produces a higher than
> allowed current on one of the rails it produces.


And now we go back to the original post where the OP said that his new
power supply would not stay on - not because it was bad, but because
there was an issue with something it was powering up. As it turned out,
once he cleared up that issue, all was well.
 
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Rod Speed
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      08-29-2006
David Matthew Wood <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote
> Rod Speed <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote
>> David Matthew Wood <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote
>>> (E-Mail Removed) wrote
>>>> David Matthew Wood <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote


>>>>>> Poor quality power supplies have two very nasty habits:


>>>>>> 1) They die early (that is GUARANTEED, btw), often shortly after
>>>>>> leaving the factory
>>>>>> 2) With no built-in component protection, they often take other
>>>>>> components with them, when they die. In other words, cheap
>>>>>> power supplies kill motherboards, hard drives, CPUs, RAM, etc.


>>>>>> Your post is about TWO poor quality power supplies. I suspect
>>>>>> that the first one died ungracefully, taking the motherboard out
>>>>>> with it. The second one can't even power itself, apparently.


>>>>>> It's your money, but people don't seem to understand that
>>>>>> often spending an extra 40 bucks or so on a GOOD power
>>>>>> supply can save a complete rebuild, costing hundreds of bucks.


>>>>> Actually, I'm sure the power supply he bought from the store is
>>>>> perfectly fine. Don't forget about "power good"! If the power
>>>>> supply doesn't see this, it will not stay on. That is how all ATX
>>>>> power supplies are designed, and it is indeed built-in component
>>>>> protection. If anything is shorting out (as could very well be the
>>>>> case here, since his first power supply fried something), it will
>>>>> shut down a working power supply.


>>>> Good link on the Power Good Signal
>>>> http://www.pcguide.com/ref/power/sup...werGood-c.html
>>>> and how "Some extremely el-cheapo power supplies may "fake"
>>>> the Power Good signal by just tying it to another +5 V line."


>>> Yes, and while it doesn't directly have anything to do with Power
>>> Good, such power supplies don't provide any protection either.


>> You dont know that on that ANY claim.


> What, that cheap POS power supplies don't
> shut down right away if something is shorting?


Nope, that they dont have ANY protection.

> Well lets see. I have some sitting around that will not power
> up at all because something in the machine shorted them out.


You dont know that that is the reason why they died.

> I have others sitting around that still power up and
> work just fine after being shorted out, because they
> shut down right away before damage was done.


Plenty of cheap power supplys do that fine.

>>> If you try to fire up a GOOD supply and it doesn't observe the
>>> correct loads (either from not being properly connected or from
>>> something that is shorting), it will shut down in order to prevent damage


>> Yes. But that is true even with cheap power supplys too.


>> Where they mostly fail is shutting down
>> properly when the power supply fails.


> Shutting down before damage is done you mean.


Yep.

> I've witnessed both.


Yes, so you claim that they dont have ANY protection is just plain wrong.

> A, something will short out and PS will smoke.
> or
> B, something will short out and PS will turn off. In which
> case, after dealing with whatever caused the short, the
> power supply will come to life and work just fine.


Yep, and when that last is seen with a cheap power
supply, they must have had SOME protection.

>>> since it is bad for a power supply to run without a load.


>> Oh bullshit.


> Oh really? Why don't you try it then.


Done that plenty of times thanks.

> Force a cheap power supply on and let it run
> for a while without a load. See what happens.


Nothing, thats what. It works fine when its used with a load.

>>> Same goes with amps.


>> Nope, completely different.


>>> If you power up an amp and crank the volume without speakers
>>> attached, it will either a, go into thermal shut down, or b, self-destruct.


>> Utterly mangled all over again.


> Again...oh really?


Fraid so.

> Take a high current amplifier, give it an audio feed,
> disconnect anything that will create a load on the
> outputs, crank the levels, and see what happens.


Nothing special with a properly designed amp.

Because it isnt hard to accidentially disconnect a speaker.


 
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Rod Speed
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      08-29-2006
David Matthew Wood <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote
> Rod Speed <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote
>> David Matthew Wood <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote
>>> Rod Speed <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote
>>>> David Matthew Wood <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote


>>>>>> Poor quality power supplies have two very nasty habits:


>>>>>> 1) They die early (that is GUARANTEED, btw),
>>>>>> often shortly after leaving the factory
>>>>>> 2) With no built-in component protection, they often take other
>>>>>> components with them, when they die. In other words, cheap power
>>>>>> supplies kill motherboards, hard drives, CPUs, RAM, etc.


>>>>>> Your post is about TWO poor quality power supplies. I suspect
>>>>>> that the first one died ungracefully, taking the motherboard out
>>>>>> with it. The second one can't even power itself, apparently.


>>>>>> It's your money, but people don't seem to understand that
>>>>>> often spending an extra 40 bucks or so on a GOOD power
>>>>>> supply can save a complete rebuild, costing hundreds of bucks.


>>>>> Actually, I'm sure the power supply he bought from the
>>>>> store is perfectly fine. Don't forget about "power good"!
>>>>> If the power supply doesn't see this, it will not stay on.


>>>> You've got that backwards, its PROVIDED by the
>>>> power supply, not observed by the power supply.


>>> It works both ways.


>> Nope, its an output FROM the power supply, not an input TO the power supply.


> It doesn't matter.


Corse it does.

> Some supplies monitor that load.


The power good line isnt even a load.

> I have quite a few that will shut down if load on PG does not exist.


Fantasy. There are quite a few that will shut down if the
OUTPUT RAILS arent loaded, a different matter entirely.

>>> Yes, it is provided by the power supply, and yes,
>>> it is there to prevent the motherboard from starting
>>> up before the power supply stabilizes.


>> Nothing like what you originally said.


> No, I'm half agreeing with you about what power good is there for.


No you arent, you just said that some power
supplys monitor if that line is loaded. No they dont.

>>> However, on some power supplies, if there is a power
>>> surge or any other issue (which can be caused by a
>>> fried component on the motherboard), "Power Good"
>>> will also shut down the power supply if it malfunctions.


>> Nope, again, its an output FROM the power supply and the power
>> supply is supposed to drop the power good signal if something has
>> gone bad power wise, mainly so the motherboard can restart after
>> a glitch that has seen the power supply shut down and then start again.


> And some supplies shut down completely.


Different matter entirely.

Yes, some do need to be unplugged from the mains to reset themselves.

> I have a few sitting right here that will do that.


>> The power supply doesnt even notice a fried component
>> on the motherboard unless that produces a higher than
>> allowed current on one of the rails it produces.


> And now we go back to the original post where the OP said that his
> new power supply would not stay on - not because it was bad, but
> because there was an issue with something it was powering up.


Yes, but that had nothing to do with the power good line.

> As it turned out, once he cleared up that issue, all was well.


Yes, but thats irrelevant to YOUR claims about the power good line.


 
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David Matthew Wood
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      08-29-2006
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
"Rod Speed" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> > Well lets see. I have some sitting around that will not power
> > up at all because something in the machine shorted them out.

>
> You dont know that that is the reason why they died.


And do you know this exactly? I've seen it happen firsthand.

>
> > I have others sitting around that still power up and
> > work just fine after being shorted out, because they
> > shut down right away before damage was done.

>
> Plenty of cheap power supplys do that fine.


Maybe, but not as likely as it would be if it weren't a power supply
where corners were cut in making it.

> >>> If you try to fire up a GOOD supply and it doesn't observe the
> >>> correct loads (either from not being properly connected or from
> >>> something that is shorting), it will shut down in order to prevent damage

>
> >> Yes. But that is true even with cheap power supplys too.

>
> >> Where they mostly fail is shutting down
> >> properly when the power supply fails.

>
> > Shutting down before damage is done you mean.

>
> Yep.
>
> > I've witnessed both.

>
> Yes, so you claim that they dont have ANY protection is just plain wrong.


I was replying to an article that mentioned how some skimp on PG and
just supply a normal 5v lead instead. If a power supply is built like
that, then it's very likely corners were cut in other areas too,
including the protection circuitry.

> >>> since it is bad for a power supply to run without a load.

>
> >> Oh bullshit.

>
> > Oh really? Why don't you try it then.

>
> Done that plenty of times thanks.


Consider yourself lucky then.

> >>> Same goes with amps.

>
> >> Nope, completely different.

>
> >>> If you power up an amp and crank the volume without speakers
> >>> attached, it will either a, go into thermal shut down, or b,
> >>> self-destruct.

>
> >> Utterly mangled all over again.

>
> > Again...oh really?

>
> Fraid so.
>
> > Take a high current amplifier, give it an audio feed,
> > disconnect anything that will create a load on the
> > outputs, crank the levels, and see what happens.

>
> Nothing special with a properly designed amp.


All amps come with manuals that say to NEVER operate them without a
proper load. There are reasons for this.

>
> Because it isnt hard to accidentially disconnect a speaker.


Again, consider yourself lucky. Either you weren't running much power
through this thing, or you caught it in a short time - or you weren't
running the amp much beyond 20% of its capacity with a constant signal
running through it.
 
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