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ISPs kicking routers off internet?

 
 
Steve Berry
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      07-18-2006

[snip]

> The closest approximation was when Comcast and others wanted to charge
> an extra $6/month for each connected computer for "residential" class
> service. The NAT routers were assumed to be able to hide the presence
> of additional computers. However, some research into sequence numbers
> and traffic patterns showed that the number of machines behind the
> firewall could be deduced. Comcast apparently used these and possibly
> other methods to estimate the number of computers in use. They then
> turned over the numbers to an obnoxious phone pool that called each
> customer and demanded the extra $6 per month per machine. Consumer
> reaction was predictable and the plan died after about 2 weeks.


Now that is interesting. Never ceases to amaze me how stupid ISPs are
sometimes. Fairly pointless exercise number 5243.
Did no-one think that Customers would "depart the ship" when they found out
?
One way to dump your Customers off to the opposition I guess.

S


 
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Jeff Liebermann
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      07-18-2006
"Steve Berry" <(E-Mail Removed)> hath wroth:

>
>[snip]
>
>> The closest approximation was when Comcast and others wanted to charge
>> an extra $6/month for each connected computer for "residential" class
>> service. The NAT routers were assumed to be able to hide the presence
>> of additional computers. However, some research into sequence numbers
>> and traffic patterns showed that the number of machines behind the
>> firewall could be deduced. Comcast apparently used these and possibly
>> other methods to estimate the number of computers in use. They then
>> turned over the numbers to an obnoxious phone pool that called each
>> customer and demanded the extra $6 per month per machine. Consumer
>> reaction was predictable and the plan died after about 2 weeks.


>Now that is interesting. Never ceases to amaze me how stupid ISPs are
>sometimes. Fairly pointless exercise number 5243.
>Did no-one think that Customers would "depart the ship" when they found out
>?
>One way to dump your Customers off to the opposition I guess.


It hasn't change much over the years. The current Comcast Terms of
Use limit their own "home networking" offering to 5 computers. See
the first section of:
http://www.comcast.net/terms/homenetworking.jsp
The Subscriber Agreement is hereby modified solely to permit you
to use the Service in connection with the multiple connection of
up to five (5) personal computing devices within your Premises
to the Service (the "Comcast Home Networking Service") etc...

I wonder what happens if you plug in the 6th computer? Ka-boom?

--
Jeff Liebermann http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed)-cruz.ca.us
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
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Gaz
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      07-18-2006
Rob wrote:
> Hey there,
>
> Want to know: is there some signal an ISP can send to your router that
> will disable it? Some ISPs don't want their users sharing the
> internet, and I've heard rumours that there is actually some sort of
> signal they can send out to disable the internet on their routers.
>
> If so, this may be happening to me: I have a wireless router set up so
> I can have the internet in my living room, but every now and again
> (about 3 or 4 times a week), I loose internet completely, and the
> router is unable to reconnect. It gets some error like "cant get ip
> address" or something. The only solution is to unplug the router &
> modem and plug them back in.
>
> Anyone else ever heard of this? Any details you can point me to on
> this mysterious signal? Any details I can look up? Any solution to
> stop the drops anyone can offer?
>
> Rob


You and about 75% of other router users. Most of the routers available use a
conexant chipset and are, to be frank, pants. It is very very common to have
to do this, and nothing to do with the isp.

Gaz


 
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Gaz
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      07-18-2006
Roger wrote:
> "Margolotta" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:(E-Mail Removed) s-media.phx...
>
>
>> I have never encountered a limit on uploads
>> but, then, I don't upload all that much

>
> ISPs calculate both uploads and downloads into your useage limit.
>
> If you download 2GB and upload 1GB, that would total 3GB of your monthly
> useage.


That depends entirely on the particular ISP, some have extremely convulated
means of calculating usage, which seems to change on a month by month basis.

Gaz


 
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Barry OGrady
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      07-18-2006
On 17 Jul 2006 22:43:27 -0700, "Rob" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>Hey there,
>
>Want to know: is there some signal an ISP can send to your router that
>will disable it?


I already know. Do you want to know?

>Some ISPs don't want their users sharing the
>internet, and I've heard rumours that there is actually some sort of
>signal they can send out to disable the internet on their routers.


There isn't and there is no reason for them to do so.

>If so, this may be happening to me: I have a wireless router set up so
>I can have the internet in my living room, but every now and again
>(about 3 or 4 times a week), I loose internet completely, and the
>router is unable to reconnect.


Are you sure you don't lose internet?

>It gets some error like "cant get ip
>address" or something. The only solution is to unplug the router &
>modem and plug them back in.


Or a soft reboot.

>Anyone else ever heard of this? Any details you can point me to on
>this mysterious signal? Any details I can look up? Any solution to
>stop the drops anyone can offer?


It could be the fault of the isp but not deliberate.

>Rob


Barry
=====
Home page
http://members.iinet.net.au/~barry.og
 
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David Wade
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      07-18-2006
"Rob" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed) ups.com...
> Hey there,
>
> Want to know: is there some signal an ISP can send to your router that
> will disable it? Some ISPs don't want their users sharing the
> internet, and I've heard rumours that there is actually some sort of
> signal they can send out to disable the internet on their routers.
>


Since ADSl routers and Ethernet modems use basically the same chip set and
software I guess this is "Urban Myth and Legend". If you are daft enough to
leave RIP or one of the routing protocols enable I guess they couold mess up
the routing table, but thats easily sorted...


> If so, this may be happening to me: I have a wireless router set up so
> I can have the internet in my living room, but every now and again
> (about 3 or 4 times a week), I loose internet completely, and the
> router is unable to reconnect. It gets some error like "cant get ip
> address" or something. The only solution is to unplug the router &
> modem and plug them back in.
>


This is fairly typical of behaviour in marginal service areas...

> Anyone else ever heard of this? Any details you can point me to on
> this mysterious signal? Any details I can look up? Any solution to
> stop the drops anyone can offer?
>


Look up how to check the attenuation and noise level figures in you router
then see if they are acceptable...

> Rob
>



 
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Wolfgang S. Rupprecht
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      07-18-2006

Jeff Liebermann <(E-Mail Removed)-cruz.ca.us> writes:
> I wonder what happens if you plug in the 6th computer? Ka-boom?


Not that it really matters, but I don't think they can really tell how
many computers someone has if it is running a good OS that randomizes
initial sequence numbers, they use the same OS on all their computers
and their NAT allocates ports from the same ephemeral port range that
the OS uses when it opens an outgoing connection. There shouldn't be
any traffic difference between 4 people logged into one computer and 4
people on identical computers, nat-ed by the above computer.

(Of course, the real solution to dealing with an ISP that limits all
sorts of things that aren't any of their business is to just dump
them. There are still ISP's out there that effectively only limit
one's overall bandwidth usage and any anti-social behavior, like
spamming).

-wolfgang
--
Wolfgang S. Rupprecht http://www.wsrcc.com/wolfgang/
 
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Jeff Liebermann
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      07-18-2006
On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 14:16:28 -0700, "Wolfgang S. Rupprecht"
<(E-Mail Removed) .wsrcc.com> wrote:

>
>Jeff Liebermann <(E-Mail Removed)-cruz.ca.us> writes:
>> I wonder what happens if you plug in the 6th computer? Ka-boom?

>
>Not that it really matters, but I don't think they can really tell how
>many computers someone has if it is running a good OS that randomizes
>initial sequence numbers, they use the same OS on all their computers
>and their NAT allocates ports from the same ephemeral port range that
>the OS uses when it opens an outgoing connection.


Well, there's more exposed on the WAN side than just sequence numbers.
The TCP time stamp can be used:
http://pjf.jogger.pl/2006/03/28/ttmap-v.-0.1-pre/
http://www.phrack.org/show.php?p=63&a=3 (search for 0x03-2 section)
http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb/papers/fnat.pdf
I can assure you that whatever Comcast was doing, it worked well
onough at the time with conventional consumer routers.



--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558 (E-Mail Removed)-cruz.ca.us
# http://802.11junk.com http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed)
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS
 
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Steve Berry
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      07-18-2006
[smip]

> I wonder what happens if you plug in the 6th computer? Ka-boom?


Not alot if you turn off the 5th beforehand ??
Wonder how that would work if you placed another level of NAT indirection
between the router and the internal kit ??

>
> --
> Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)-cruz.ca.us
> 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558


I can understand the rationale based on bandwidth arguments perhaps or ISP
tiered-service levels and it may have worked if all ISPs thought the same
way. Thankfully they don't. To be honest, that's something I've never had to
check up on. Maybe I'm ****ing off my ISP.
Do they know ? Do they care ? What's the meaning of life etc...??

Rgds, S


 
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Jeff Liebermann
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      07-18-2006
On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 21:44:44 GMT, "Steve Berry" <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

>> I wonder what happens if you plug in the 6th computer? Ka-boom?


>Not alot if you turn off the 5th beforehand ??


Let's just say I have a thing about unenforceable rules and contract
provisions. Trust by verify?

>Wonder how that would work if you placed another level of NAT indirection
>between the router and the internal kit ??


The TCP timestamp originates from the client computers are transparent
to any number of NAT routers. However, if the ISP is using sequence
numbers or IP socket ranges to guess the number of machines, the 2nd
router would do a very effective job of hiding the clients. Everything
to the main NAT router would appear to be coming from a single IP
address (the 2nd NAT router).

>I can understand the rationale based on bandwidth arguments perhaps or ISP
>tiered-service levels and it may have worked if all ISPs thought the same
>way. Thankfully they don't.


I'm a big fan of metered service. I don't like subsidizing someone
else file sharing habit.

>To be honest, that's something I've never had to
>check up on. Maybe I'm ****ing off my ISP.


Well, that's easy enough. Just call your ISP's support department and
ask them if they're angry at you. That should break the monotony of
their day.

>Do they know ?


Oh yes. Many ISP's do detailed traffic analysis to detect abuse.
Individual users are not tracked unless the ISP suspects suspicious or
criminal activity. However, to maintain privacy, the records and
output are usually vaporized before the friendly and helpful
government can confiscate them.

>Do they care ?


About abuse? Yes. About what you do on the internet, no.

>What's the meaning of life etc...??


42.

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# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558 (E-Mail Removed)-cruz.ca.us
# http://802.11junk.com (E-Mail Removed)
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS
 
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