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Would this be ok? (power question)

 
 
symonlandor@gmail.com
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      02-13-2006
Yeah,My 400 watt PSU is draining more power than my 250watt UPS can
give out.so far the best option for me is a $100 new UPS,but i dont
have $100.Now,would it be logical to just use a premium grade
powerstrip,that has like 1800wattage,or would my computer crap out? All
I really want is my computer to be able to run the high end games
without having my UPS or whatever beeping and flashing saying my comp
is draining more than it can give.

 
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Rich Wilson
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      02-14-2006

<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed) oups.com...
> Yeah,My 400 watt PSU is draining more power than my 250watt UPS can
> give out.so far the best option for me is a $100 new UPS,but i dont
> have $100.Now,would it be logical to just use a premium grade
> powerstrip,that has like 1800wattage,or would my computer crap out? All
> I really want is my computer to be able to run the high end games
> without having my UPS or whatever beeping and flashing saying my comp
> is draining more than it can give.


Just plug it into the mains! 400W is nothing compared to the power taken by,
say, a kettle. Any old powerstrip will do.


 
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=?UTF-8?B?UGFsaW5kcuKYu21l?=
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      02-14-2006
http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed) wrote:
> Yeah,My 400 watt PSU is draining more power than my 250watt UPS can
> give out.so far the best option for me is a $100 new UPS,but i dont
> have $100.Now,would it be logical to just use a premium grade
> powerstrip,that has like 1800wattage,or would my computer crap out? All
> I really want is my computer to be able to run the high end games
> without having my UPS or whatever beeping and flashing saying my comp
> is draining more than it can give.
>

What were the reasons for having a UPS in the first place? Have they
gone away?

The odds are that your over-loaded UPS is doing little more for you than
a plug-in "surge protector". So, replacing it with a powerstrip with
built-in "surge protector" isn't going to make your situation worse than
it is at present. Quite possibly better, as the chance of your UPS
catching fire is removed.

If your UPS is there to protect against brownouts and blackouts - then
it probably isn't doing that in its overloaded state. It may be helping
with out of tolerance supply voltage, but probably isn't doing that
either, at the moment.

So, if you want to be as protected as you are at the moment, swapping
the UPS for a "surge protected" powerstrip is no bad idea. Whether that
protection is needed and how effective these "surge protectors" are
totally different questions.

If all the reasons for getting a UPS in the first place were valid and
remain relevant - then you need to buy a bigger UPS. There are loads on
ebay. If you can't afford one of these, what are you going to do when
your computer doesn't even beep anymore, get out a pack of playing cards
and play "high end" solitaire?

--
Sue



 
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JANA
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      02-14-2006
You need a bigger UPS, "period"!

You can bypass it, but then you will not have the same level of protection.
You have to find a way to save up for a good UPS, if you want proper
protection.

Take care when buying used UPS's. The battery life is limited to about 3 to
5 years, depending on the charge cycles, power surges and failures, and the
average load in relation to its capacity.

--

JANA
_____


<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed) oups.com...
Yeah,My 400 watt PSU is draining more power than my 250watt UPS can
give out.so far the best option for me is a $100 new UPS,but i dont
have $100.Now,would it be logical to just use a premium grade
powerstrip,that has like 1800wattage,or would my computer crap out? All
I really want is my computer to be able to run the high end games
without having my UPS or whatever beeping and flashing saying my comp
is draining more than it can give.


 
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Vanguard
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Posts: n/a
 
      02-14-2006
"Palindr☻me" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> (E-Mail Removed) wrote:
>> Yeah,My 400 watt PSU is draining more power than my 250watt UPS can
>> give out.so far the best option for me is a $100 new UPS,but i dont
>> have $100.Now,would it be logical to just use a premium grade
>> powerstrip,that has like 1800wattage,or would my computer crap out? All
>> I really want is my computer to be able to run the high end games
>> without having my UPS or whatever beeping and flashing saying my comp
>> is draining more than it can give.
>>

> What were the reasons for having a UPS in the first place? Have they gone
> away?
>
> The odds are that your over-loaded UPS is doing little more for you than a
> plug-in "surge protector". So, replacing it with a powerstrip with
> built-in "surge protector" isn't going to make your situation worse than
> it is at present. Quite possibly better, as the chance of your UPS
> catching fire is removed.
>
> If your UPS is there to protect against brownouts and blackouts - then it
> probably isn't doing that in its overloaded state. It may be helping with
> out of tolerance supply voltage, but probably isn't doing that either, at
> the moment.
>
> So, if you want to be as protected as you are at the moment, swapping the
> UPS for a "surge protected" powerstrip is no bad idea.


Unless it is a pricey UPS, the consumer-grade UPS does *not* have surge
protection. It is a *data* protection device (provided you communicate with
it so its software can perform a graceful shutdown of your computer). If it
has a heavy isolation transformer and/or regulates the waveform (to
eliminate surges, spikes, etc.) then the UPS is doing nothing to prevent
surges to your computer.

Keeping power to your computer is not the same as conditioning it. Most
UPS'es simply feed the power straight through to the computer and actually
*standby* units rather than *uninterruptible* units. Yeah, they switch in
from standby in under a few milliseconds during which it is assumed that the
electrolytic capacitors inside your PSU will provide sufficient power during
the brief outage. TRUE uninterruptible power supplies are more expensive,
and those that condition the output are even more expensive. So far, I
haven't see the retail stores selling true UPS'es and definitely none with
conditioning or surge protection.

> Whether that protection is needed and how effective these "surge
> protectors" are totally different questions.


There are lots of arguments over this. The best solution is the whole-home
arrestor at the point-of-entry for power. The surges you can create inside
your home from your appliances are way below what the switching power supply
inside your computer can handle. If you use end-point surge protectors, you
need to put all your protected equipment upstream of the SAME surge
protector. Attaching multiple surge protectors to the sockets of a wall
outlet results in a 10 or 12 foot length between the two surge protectors
(due to the length of cord from one to the outlet and then length of cord to
the other one) and that can result in a 400V, or more, surge differential
between the two surge protectors, and if you interconnect your equipment
across those 2 surge protectors then you can suffer a surge between them.

Don't get the 3-way surge protectors because they shunt the surge to the
ground line which can get back inside your computer. You want a 2-way surge
protector that shunts across the hot and neutral. Rather than shunting the
voltage and hopes it goes somewhere else that doesn't suffer from the
shunted surge, there are protectors that absorb the surge and slowly
dissipate it, like ZeroSurge. They're more expensive: the "home" units from
ZeroSurge run from $129 to $199. (I'm not specifically recommending the
ZeroSurge protectors since I'd have to get one and then get an oscilloscope
to monitor its output and somehow induce a large and extended surge to see
how well they work. It just seems more rational to choke the surge than to
shunt it somewhere else.)

A UPS is for *data* protection.
A surge protector is for *hardware* protection.

Backups are required for data security regardless of using an UPS or surge
protector! If you don't backup then that data really wasn't important to
you.

--
__________________________________________________
Post replies to the newsgroup. Share with others.
For e-mail: Remove "NIX" and add "#VN" to Subject.
__________________________________________________

 
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Vanguard
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Posts: n/a
 
      02-14-2006
"JANA" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> You need a bigger UPS, "period"!
>
> You can bypass it, but then you will not have the same level of
> protection.
> You have to find a way to save up for a good UPS, if you want proper
> protection.
>
> Take care when buying used UPS's. The battery life is limited to about 3
> to
> 5 years, depending on the charge cycles, power surges and failures, and
> the
> average load in relation to its capacity.


Many of them you can dismantle to replace the batteries. I've done it twice
at home for a huge 2kVA UPS and a smaller 350W UPS. Got the replacements
from BatteriesPlus.

If the batteries go dead or won't keep a decent charge, you won't lose
anything by seeing if you can open the case and replace the batteries since
you would've tossed the entire UPS if you didn't try checking. Buying a
used UPS and having to replace the batteries would cost about the same as
buying it new, but if you already have the UPS and after 3 to 5 years the
battery is no good then it is cheaper to fix it.

 
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=?UTF-8?B?UGFsaW5kcuKYu21l?=
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      02-14-2006
Vanguard wrote:
> "Palindr☻me" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>
>> (E-Mail Removed) wrote:
>>
>>> Yeah,My 400 watt PSU is draining more power than my 250watt UPS can
>>> give out.so far the best option for me is a $100 new UPS,but i dont
>>> have $100.Now,would it be logical to just use a premium grade
>>> powerstrip,that has like 1800wattage,or would my computer crap out? All
>>> I really want is my computer to be able to run the high end games
>>> without having my UPS or whatever beeping and flashing saying my comp
>>> is draining more than it can give.
>>>

>> What were the reasons for having a UPS in the first place? Have they
>> gone away?
>>
>> The odds are that your over-loaded UPS is doing little more for you
>> than a plug-in "surge protector". So, replacing it with a powerstrip
>> with built-in "surge protector" isn't going to make your situation
>> worse than it is at present. Quite possibly better, as the chance of
>> your UPS catching fire is removed.
>>
>> If your UPS is there to protect against brownouts and blackouts - then
>> it probably isn't doing that in its overloaded state. It may be
>> helping with out of tolerance supply voltage, but probably isn't doing
>> that either, at the moment.
>>
>> So, if you want to be as protected as you are at the moment, swapping
>> the UPS for a "surge protected" powerstrip is no bad idea.

>
>
> Unless it is a pricey UPS, the consumer-grade UPS does *not* have surge
> protection. It is a *data* protection device (provided you communicate
> with it so its software can perform a graceful shutdown of your
> computer). If it has a heavy isolation transformer and/or regulates the
> waveform (to eliminate surges, spikes, etc.) then the UPS is doing
> nothing to prevent surges to your computer.


Are you then disagreeing with me that a "surge protected" powerstrip
provides about the same protection in this respect as his current,
overloaded, UPS? (i.e. arguably not much).

I think you meant to write, "Unless it has a heavy isolation, etc..."

Incidently, my putting quotes around "surge protected" indicates that
that is what other people call them - and not I.

>
> Keeping power to your computer is not the same as conditioning it. Most
> UPS'es simply feed the power straight through to the computer and
> actually *standby* units rather than *uninterruptible* units. Yeah,
> they switch in from standby in under a few milliseconds during which it
> is assumed that the electrolytic capacitors inside your PSU will provide
> sufficient power during the brief outage. TRUE uninterruptible power
> supplies are more expensive, and those that condition the output are
> even more expensive. So far, I haven't see the retail stores selling
> true UPS'es and definitely none with conditioning or surge protection.


Rather than use "true" and, presumably, "false" - you may be better to
use the proper terms, online, line-interactive and offline.


>
>> Whether that protection is needed and how effective these "surge
>> protectors" are totally different questions.

>
>
> There are lots of arguments over this. The best solution is the
> whole-home arrestor at the point-of-entry for power. The surges you can
> create inside your home from your appliances are way below what the
> switching power supply inside your computer can handle. If you use
> end-point surge protectors, you need to put all your protected equipment
> upstream of the SAME surge protector. Attaching multiple surge
> protectors to the sockets of a wall outlet results in a 10 or 12 foot
> length between the two surge protectors (due to the length of cord from
> one to the outlet and then length of cord to the other one) and that can
> result in a 400V, or more, surge differential between the two surge
> protectors, and if you interconnect your equipment across those 2 surge
> protectors then you can suffer a surge between them.


A strange way of putting it, if you don't mind me saying. I would
suggest that a better explanation is that the surge energy has to go
somewhere and is generally dumped into the earth return - unlike
transients which can be absorbed locally. Ideally it is dumped at the
point of entry, using a surge arrestor there. The worst place to do it
is at the end of a radial circuit with several taps taken off before the
surge arrestor, as each of those taps will see the transient on the
earth return as the surge arrestor does its job. The surge that destroys
equipment on these taps comes in on the earth line - totally negating
any surge arrestors that they may have.

>
> Don't get the 3-way surge protectors because they shunt the surge to the
> ground line which can get back inside your computer. You want a 2-way
> surge protector that shunts across the hot and neutral. Rather than
> shunting the voltage and hopes it goes somewhere else that doesn't
> suffer from the shunted surge, there are protectors that absorb the
> surge and slowly dissipate it, like ZeroSurge. They're more expensive:
> the "home" units from ZeroSurge run from $129 to $199. (I'm not
> specifically recommending the ZeroSurge protectors since I'd have to get
> one and then get an oscilloscope to monitor its output and somehow
> induce a large and extended surge to see how well they work. It just
> seems more rational to choke the surge than to shunt it somewhere else.)
>

I suspect that you are mixing surge arrestors with transient
suppressors. Devices that absorb the excess energy cannot do so for a
sustained surge - and certainly not a large and extended surge. The only
way of getting rid of that much energy is to dump it into the third
wire. To get things straight - a "3 way", as you call it, surge arrestor
needs to be at the point of entry for supply. "2 way" transient
suppressors need to be at or near the load.

> A UPS is for *data* protection.
> A surge protector is for *hardware* protection.

An online UPS provides excellent hardware protection. A UPS is for what
the designer intended it to be for. Surge protectors, incorrectly used,
can be worse than no protection at all. Transient suppressors rarely do
any harm but cannot cope with a sustained surge, unless they are three wire.

>
> Backups are required for data security regardless of using an UPS or
> surge protector! If you don't backup then that data really wasn't
> important to you.
>


Agreed. However, backups are of dubious value unless they are
periodically verified as being capable of restoring the data. Too many
people take backups and never actually check whether they are adequate.
 
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Vanguard
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      02-14-2006
"Palindr☻me" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> Are you then disagreeing with me that a "surge protected" powerstrip
> provides about the same protection in this respect as his current,
> overloaded, UPS? (i.e. arguably not much).


Actually I'm stating that a UPS (of the type the OP is probably buying)
won't provide *any* surge protection at all. The OP doesn't have any surge
protection now. If the OP gets a surge protector to replace his UPS (or
puts one in front of the UPS) then all his computer gear should be hooked to
it. If he runs out of outlets on the surge strip, add more non-protected
power strips connected in series to the surge protector so all connected
equipment is upstream of the surge protector (to eliminate impedance and a
surge between using two of them in parallel).

The surge protector is NOT providing the same protection as the UPS. It is
highly likely that the UPS is not providing any surge protection at all.

> I think you meant to write, "Unless it has a heavy isolation, etc..."


It is NOT required to use an isolation transformer to eliminate surges.
Line conditioning works, too. As I recall, the transformer acts as a choke
to impede the surge, the secondary has less turns so the voltage induced in
it from the primary is smaller (and hence also the surge), and conditioning
raises the voltage back up while eliminating spikes, variance in input
voltage (brownouts, overvoltage), EMF noise, etc.) , and capacitors can be
used to bleed the overvoltage to neutral (to shunt back through the
secondary coil which, I believe, further impedes the surge).

> Incidently, my putting quotes around "surge protected" indicates that that
> is what other people call them - and not I.


Except that the typical UPS has *no* surge protection. Do NOT expect a UPS
for surge protection. I'm talking about the types that users buy at the
store or typically online. You can get a UPS with surge protection (and, as
mentioned, all your interconnected computer gear should be upstream of that
same surge protected point).

>> Keeping power to your computer is not the same as conditioning it. Most
>> UPS'es simply feed the power straight through to the computer and
>> actually *standby* units rather than *uninterruptible* units. Yeah, they
>> switch in from standby in under a few milliseconds during which it is
>> assumed that the electrolytic capacitors inside your PSU will provide
>> sufficient power during the brief outage. TRUE uninterruptible power
>> supplies are more expensive, and those that condition the output are even
>> more expensive. So far, I haven't see the retail stores selling true
>> UPS'es and definitely none with conditioning or surge protection.

>
> Rather than use "true" and, presumably, "false" - you may be better to use
> the proper terms, online, line-interactive and offline.


Because the term "UPS", which means UNinterruptible, has been bastardized in
the market to include standby power supplies (SPS) which react within
milliseconds but don't actually provide the power directly all the time, the
use of "true" is to reinforce "UNinterruptible". You won't find the terms
online, line-interactive, and offline printed on the boxes in the store or
what you get when online ordering the typical consumer-grade UPS. Think of
"true" like some folks use "really" (ever heard someone say, "We're having
*real* turkey this Thanksgiving"; however, there is no such thing as unreal
turkey because, well, it would be UNreal). I also used the term "standby"
to denote a different type of power supply, but that does not infer there is
a "non-standby" type name. See:

http://www.pcguide.com/ref/power/ext...Standby-c.html
http://www.pcguide.com/ref/power/ext...sOnLine-c.html

>>> Whether that protection is needed and how effective these "surge
>>> protectors" are totally different questions.

>>
>>
>> There are lots of arguments over this. The best solution is the
>> whole-home arrestor at the point-of-entry for power. The surges you can
>> create inside your home from your appliances are way below what the
>> switching power supply inside your computer can handle. If you use
>> end-point surge protectors, you need to put all your protected equipment
>> upstream of the SAME surge protector. Attaching multiple surge
>> protectors to the sockets of a wall outlet results in a 10 or 12 foot
>> length between the two surge protectors (due to the length of cord from
>> one to the outlet and then length of cord to the other one) and that can
>> result in a 400V, or more, surge differential between the two surge
>> protectors, and if you interconnect your equipment across those 2 surge
>> protectors then you can suffer a surge between them.

>
> A strange way of putting it, if you don't mind me saying.


A surge is a high frequency signal on your power line. As such, it
encounters a higher impedance along the wire that does your 120Hz power.
With the higher impedance, the 6 foot cord from one surge protector strip
plugged into an outlet and the 6 foot cord for another surge protector strip
plugged into the same outlet is a 12-foot difference in length between them.
If the surge gets shunted at one surge protector before the other one shunts
it, the result due to impedance between the two could amount to a
differential of several hundred volts, and there is yet another surge AFTER
shunting it.

> I would suggest that a better explanation is that the surge energy has to
> go somewhere and is generally dumped into the earth return


Mode 2 (3-way) which includes shunting to ground is hazardous to electronic
equipment. While their may be some isolation between circuit ground and
chassis ground, sometimes it's just a resistor to provide slowed discharge
of static. Since the ground line for the power supply in the computer goes
to chassis ground, there is a path for a ground shunted surge to make its
way back through chassis ground to circuit ground and back into your
equipment. In mode 1 (2-way), the surge gets shunted between neutral and
hot and gets delivered to ground back at the home's point-of-entry for power
(computer companies have ground points at much shorter distances to reduce
impedance to the surge). Shunting to ground is hazardous. Shunting back to
earth ground maintains the surge along the line until it reaches the earth
return.

Best is to shunt it to earth return at the point of entry so you don't have
to deal with it inside your residence. The equipment within your house
doesn't produce surges that your computer's power supply cannot handle. If
you are in an industrial plant where, for example, one or more high-current
lathes may be powered down together, you can generate a large surge within
the building so internal surge protection is required.

Rather than get into a long discussion regarding surge arrest, shunting,
transient clamping, true/online UPS versus standby/offline, my main point
was that the UPS that the OP is likely using has no surge protection at all.

 
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=?UTF-8?B?UGFsaW5kcuKYu21l?=
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Posts: n/a
 
      02-14-2006
Vanguard wrote:
<snip>
> Rather than get into a long discussion regarding surge arrest, shunting,
> transient clamping, true/online UPS versus standby/offline, my main
> point was that the UPS that the OP is likely using has no surge
> protection at all.


Back to something that may be of use to the OP:

I think we agree, perhaps:

That he may as well remove his present, overloaded, UPS as it is
probably serving no useful purpose? And could possibly do more harm than
good? ( if it, for example, catastrophically fails)

That if he needs to protect his data against the effects of power
outages, he needs to buy a UPS capable of meeting the load for at least
long enough to shut the sytem down gracefully?

But that also he needs to backup his data and verify that he can
actually restore such a backup sucessfully and retrieve everything he
wants to keep?

That, if he want to protect his computer hardware against almost
anything that could come up the supply line, he needs to buy a
"true/online" UPS?

But that he wont get such things at his local computer shop and, if it
isn't described specifically as such, it probably isn't one?

That a whole house surge arrestor, at the point of supply entry, is a
jolly good idea to protect those things that aren't on the UPS?

Phew!

--
Sue



 
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Vanguard
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Posts: n/a
 
      02-14-2006
"Palindr☻me" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> Vanguard wrote:
> <snip>
>> Rather than get into a long discussion regarding surge arrest, shunting,
>> transient clamping, true/online UPS versus standby/offline, my main point
>> was that the UPS that the OP is likely using has no surge protection at
>> all.

>
> Back to something that may be of use to the OP:
>
> I think we agree, perhaps:
>
> That he may as well remove his present, overloaded, UPS as it is probably
> serving no useful purpose? And could possibly do more harm than good? ( if
> it, for example, catastrophically fails)
>
> That if he needs to protect his data against the effects of power outages,
> he needs to buy a UPS capable of meeting the load for at least long enough
> to shut the sytem down gracefully?
>
> But that also he needs to backup his data and verify that he can actually
> restore such a backup sucessfully and retrieve everything he wants to
> keep?
>
> That, if he want to protect his computer hardware against almost anything
> that could come up the supply line, he needs to buy a "true/online" UPS?
>
> But that he wont get such things at his local computer shop and, if it
> isn't described specifically as such, it probably isn't one?
>
> That a whole house surge arrestor, at the point of supply entry, is a
> jolly good idea to protect those things that aren't on the UPS?
>
> Phew!



Sounds good to me. If the OP does backups, I'd suggest first getting the
surge protection.

 
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