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Where do good C++ teams exist ?

 
 
Earl Purple
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      12-29-2006

smnoff wrote:
> Trying to find even a single C++ developer is difficult as programming is
> not 100% science or 100% like architecting a building. There are set
> standards, city ordinances for a building and that area of knowledge is well
> known for thousands of years. And likewise, there are very few buildings
> that fall down.
>
> However, most programming and IT project fail, at least 70% fail according
> to Forrester research and others. I say at least 90% fail.
> Programming is very new and it's very creative. Hence, it's like trying to
> find an great artist or musician that's also a good engineer.
>
> Most of the those that hang out in user groups aren't all that great. Those
> that write books aren't all that great either as they spend all their time
> writing books as oppose to code in the real world. Sort of like an author
> that writes book on how to be a great actor, of which, means zip in the real
> world. Just because you goto a schools of acting doesn't mean you are going
> to make it big.
>
> Those that are any good are actually doing the work to get the job done and
> just don't have the time to "hang out" anywhere. Do you see anyone else in
> other professions having all the time to just hang out doing the same exact
> thing at work? I don't. But, I do see lots of talented people doing
> something completely different than their day job just to get away or do
> something different.
>
> The more effective way, IMO, to find a good programmer to actually see the
> work they have personally written. Not some resume, or some meaningless
> certification as test and that stuff are hardly useful in a creative world.


Projects fail usually because of bad market research, not because of
bad programmers.
Many programs work reasonably well even though they are very badly
written (which unfortunately then makes it harder to get permission to
fix them).

 
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Tinku
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      12-29-2006
The real warriors are making games out there!


Earl Purple wrote:
> smnoff wrote:
> > Trying to find even a single C++ developer is difficult as programming is
> > not 100% science or 100% like architecting a building. There are set
> > standards, city ordinances for a building and that area of knowledge is well
> > known for thousands of years. And likewise, there are very few buildings
> > that fall down.
> >
> > However, most programming and IT project fail, at least 70% fail according
> > to Forrester research and others. I say at least 90% fail.
> > Programming is very new and it's very creative. Hence, it's like trying to
> > find an great artist or musician that's also a good engineer.
> >
> > Most of the those that hang out in user groups aren't all that great. Those
> > that write books aren't all that great either as they spend all their time
> > writing books as oppose to code in the real world. Sort of like an author
> > that writes book on how to be a great actor, of which, means zip in the real
> > world. Just because you goto a schools of acting doesn't mean you are going
> > to make it big.
> >
> > Those that are any good are actually doing the work to get the job done and
> > just don't have the time to "hang out" anywhere. Do you see anyone else in
> > other professions having all the time to just hang out doing the same exact
> > thing at work? I don't. But, I do see lots of talented people doing
> > something completely different than their day job just to get away or do
> > something different.
> >
> > The more effective way, IMO, to find a good programmer to actually see the
> > work they have personally written. Not some resume, or some meaningless
> > certification as test and that stuff are hardly useful in a creative world.

>
> Projects fail usually because of bad market research, not because of
> bad programmers.
> Many programs work reasonably well even though they are very badly
> written (which unfortunately then makes it harder to get permission to
> fix them).


 
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smnoff
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      12-29-2006
I would "venture" and say that the programmer should also have a
responsibility in knowing if the market research makes sense and blindly
listening to what it/they say. If the program fails for whatever reason,
"too hard to use, slow, incompatible, etc.", the programmer will have to
take some of the blame, period.

Just saying, "I was just following orders or the specifications" is another
lame excuse. That's like a contractor following the architect's plans on a
two legged stool. The programmer/developer is supposed to design and build
the thing so it make sense that the programmer/developer should be the
ultimate authority. Blaming it on someone else or the specs is just another
way to avoid accountability.


"Earl Purple" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed) oups.com...
>
> smnoff wrote:
>> Trying to find even a single C++ developer is difficult as programming is
>> not 100% science or 100% like architecting a building. There are set
>> standards, city ordinances for a building and that area of knowledge is
>> well
>> known for thousands of years. And likewise, there are very few buildings
>> that fall down.
>>
>> However, most programming and IT project fail, at least 70% fail
>> according
>> to Forrester research and others. I say at least 90% fail.
>> Programming is very new and it's very creative. Hence, it's like trying
>> to
>> find an great artist or musician that's also a good engineer.
>>
>> Most of the those that hang out in user groups aren't all that great.
>> Those
>> that write books aren't all that great either as they spend all their
>> time
>> writing books as oppose to code in the real world. Sort of like an author
>> that writes book on how to be a great actor, of which, means zip in the
>> real
>> world. Just because you goto a schools of acting doesn't mean you are
>> going
>> to make it big.
>>
>> Those that are any good are actually doing the work to get the job done
>> and
>> just don't have the time to "hang out" anywhere. Do you see anyone else
>> in
>> other professions having all the time to just hang out doing the same
>> exact
>> thing at work? I don't. But, I do see lots of talented people doing
>> something completely different than their day job just to get away or do
>> something different.
>>
>> The more effective way, IMO, to find a good programmer to actually see
>> the
>> work they have personally written. Not some resume, or some meaningless
>> certification as test and that stuff are hardly useful in a creative
>> world.

>
> Projects fail usually because of bad market research, not because of
> bad programmers.
> Many programs work reasonably well even though they are very badly
> written (which unfortunately then makes it harder to get permission to
> fix them).
>



 
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JoeC
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      12-29-2006

Earl Purple wrote:
> Diwa wrote:
>
> > The C++ developers that I know are mostly in maintenance of
> > existing software. Probably, because there is less non-product
> > green-field projects in C++ compared to lets say in C# or Java.
> > What I was trying to know was are there C++ teams which stay
> > together one contract project after another contract project ?

>
> Unfortunately that is the case and it is not what I want to spend my
> lifetime
> doing. I want to work on new "green field" projects, and so I may well
> have
> to move out of C++ to do so even though C++ is my favourite programming
> language.
>
> The alternative is to leave employment as an employee and work on my
> own projects. Even in this case C++ might not be the only language I
> use because there are aspects for which other languages are better
> suited. C++ isn't always the answer to everything.


That is true, I have worked with Perl, Basic, Pascal and started
getting into Java. Java is pritty confusing to the beginner although
getting past the basic setup of a program it seems very similiar to
C++. What other langes are good to learn?

 
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JoeC
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      12-29-2006

Earl Purple wrote:
> JoeC wrote:
> > >
> > > Yeah, show them that you know how to write proper
> > > comp.lang.c++-approved C++, that obeys all the rules in the
> > > Sutter-Alexandrescu book and that everyone else is incompetent because
> > > they don't follow these rules. That will make you very very popular...

> >
> > Is that sarcasm or good advice? I am not in the industry and one day
> > would like to be.

>
> I am in the industry and have been for 10 years or so. Before that I
> was working with C++ for 3 years but in a research environment at a
> university.
>
> It depends on whether they rate themselves as great C++ programmers. If
> they do then they don't want you pointing out their inadequacies and
> showing up yourself as a supposed "expert" over them. If they already
> know their C++ skills are limited and that their main skills lie
> elsewhere whilst accepting that you are the C++ expert, they are more
> likely to accept your advice, although obviously you still have to be
> tactful.
>
> The likelihood is that they have a system that already works and they
> want someone to maintain and enhance it, not to completely rewrite it,
> although so often that is the best approach because it is totally
> unstructured.


I find from my games and projects, it is far more work to fix and
expand than it is to totally rewrite using some objects from old one
that fit in. Still my projects are learning tools first but still they
have the purpose I give them. I am the customer and the devloper at
the same time. I choose a project that is slightly above my level
figure out the most challenging parts but still challenges creep up in
unexpected places. In my game I added a bunch of graphic displays, it
was pretty easy but small details in game play required pretty
significant re-programming. Somthing like a computer opponent is far
outside of what I can create and I am still pondering the basic concept
of that addtion.

Because my game evloved more thant it was planned I had way too much
stuff in the winproc loop and in my re-wite put much of that in
functions and objects. Still with the re-write and upgrade, I still
have much room for imporvment.
>
> > > Actually there are two types - programmers who know a bit of business
> > > and business-people who know a bit of programming. And it's the latter
> > > whose programs usually run according to the spec because they know what
> > > the spec is. Amazing how bad they are at documentation too, at least in
> > > describing things in a way an ordinary person would understand.

> >
> > I have other skills and I know how to program. I focus on creating war
> > games because that is what I know. I am just getting the basics of
> > creating a game and finally got a version to work pretty well although
> > it has its flaws. I can write programs dealing with other things but I
> > choose things that keeps me interested.

>
> If you ever decide to start your own business and employ another
> programmer who is perhaps a more expert programmer than yourself then
> be sure to communicate the specification very well to them.
>
> Also, let the expert start the project. The project infrastructure is
> best left to the expert, but so often they are brought in to pick up
> the pieces later on.


I hope my creation and devlopment of my own projects will better enable
me to work with programmers who are better than I. Still I am eager to
learn. Most of what I see is questions on syntax getting some small
block of code to work. Much also seems like it is for abstract
assignments. I am more interested on how to design a fairly complex
system and how larger programs are created.
>
> > > Strange also how often the development team meetings are discussing
> > > business issues and not discussing what class libraries they have just
> > > created.
> > >
> > > Or perhaps I've just been unlucky and worked for all the wrong
> > > companies.

> >
> > Programming is not an end in itself but a tool to reach a goal. I
> > often get boored programming things with no purpose but find it more
> > exciting and intersting when I am solving problems because you need and
> > idea and concept before I can write anything.

>
> I know that. I was expressing the point that someone who knows
> everything about programming but nothing about anything else will
> possibly find their options limited.


I find these kind of discussions very informative. In reading this
tread I get hints of office space but I get that in my current job but
at least at Innotech all of their bosses has the same message and
direction.

I when I am looking for another job I will have had 20 years in the
Army with a college degree. I speak several languages and have
knowlege of security issues and I am a programmer.

 
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Kaz Kylheku
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      12-29-2006
Diwa wrote:
> Now suppose a huge, reliable, scalable and a
> good performance software system is to be
> built in C++.


Not gonna happen. End of story.

What we can do is assign a numeric weight to each of those
requirements:

huge - 2
reliable - 2
scalable - 1
performance -1

Now, the total weight is 6.

You must remove enough requirements to bring the weight to 4.

Then you can do it in C++.

 
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BobR
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      12-30-2006

JoeC wrote in message...
>
>That is true, I have worked with Perl, Basic, Pascal and started
>getting into Java. Java is pritty confusing to the beginner although
>getting past the basic setup of a program it seems very similiar to
>C++. What other langes are good to learn?


Well, you have the popular high level languages covered. How about Assembler?
You just never know when you might be required to program a 1k EEPROM! <G>
(Gads, I wonder if you could even find a chip that small these days?!? (like
lookin' for a 20gig HD!)).

--
Bob R
POVrookie


 
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Denise Kleingeist
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      12-30-2006
Hi Diwa!
Diwa wrote:
> You are right here. But what happens to the team once
> the system has been built. Most would probably stay
> around to do maintenance of that. Where are the teams
> which move on to build another C++ system ?


In most places I have worked, there was always a mix between
maintenance and new software creation. ... and, personally, I
am and always have been involved mostly with new creation
(mostly being called upon for maintenance only for the tricky bits).
However, once a system is build, some people move on to the
next one while others stay behind and do maintenance. Of
course, for software which doesn't need much oiling maintenance
actually means extending or changing the system. Except that it
is work within some existing code base, it is not that much
different to initial system creation anyway. Sure, there are
occasional bug fixes but these tend to be relatively rare
compared to adapting systems to new requirements.

Good luck, Denise!

 
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JoeC
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      12-30-2006

BobR wrote:
> JoeC wrote in message...
> >
> >That is true, I have worked with Perl, Basic, Pascal and started
> >getting into Java. Java is pritty confusing to the beginner although
> >getting past the basic setup of a program it seems very similiar to
> >C++. What other langes are good to learn?

>
> Well, you have the popular high level languages covered. How about Assembler?
> You just never know when you might be required to program a 1k EEPROM! <G>
> (Gads, I wonder if you could even find a chip that small these days?!? (like
> lookin' for a 20gig HD!)).
>
> --
> Bob R
> POVrookie


I have looked into assembler and have some information on it. I do
have some compliers that allow for inline assebmly. From my reading I
have a question. Are intel and AMD chips the same or Assembly
programming? I really need a dummies book to start give me the
assembler show me how to use it and may be I will be able to learn some
assembly.

I would like to learn some assembly but I would have to start fromt he
basics and a hello world program is a major undertaking.

 
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Mathias Gaunard
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      12-30-2006
Diwa wrote:

> Once the team has built this software system,
> they move on to build another such system
> for somebody else.


Consultants maybe?
 
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