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If you had asked me 5 years ago about the future of C++, I would have
told you that its future was assured for many years to come. Recently,
I have been starting to wonder.

I have been teaching C++ at a local polytechnical school here in
Vancouver, Canada for approximately 8 years. Six years ago, at the
height (or should I say volume?) of the internet bubble, I had 80+
students per semester in my C++ course. Now I am fortunate to have 15
students per semester. What has changed? I believe that students are
no longer interested in learning C++. They would rather learn .NET
languages or Java (my colleages who teach these courses seem to be very
busy!). I believe it is because these other languages are easier to
learn and/or are perceived to be more relevant today.

I do believe that C++ is more difficult to learn than many of these
other languages. Despite my best efforts to make them exciting, I see
the eyes of my students start to glaze over when I start explaining
pointers. When I ask them to tokenize an english sentence (using the
strtok() function) and print the token in reverse order (they need to
declare an array of type char * and save the addresses of the tokens in
this array), I experience near panic from many of my students. But
these concepts need to be taught in a responsible C++ course. As was
pointed out to me recently, Microsoft still requires applicants to
demonstrate a very good knowledge of string manipulation using C-style
strings (none of these fancy string class objects!) when recruiting C++
programmers.

The ironic part is there is still a large demand for C++ developers
here in Vancouver. In fact, the company that I believe employs the
most developers here in Vancouver, employs almost entirely C++
programmers. This company, Electronic Arts (if you have not heard of
them, I guarantee that your kids have -- they create video games) is
only one of several gaming companies here in Vancouver that employ
primarily C++ programmers. Other companies like Kodak, MDSA, Nokia,
MDSI, etc. also employ large numbers of C++ programmers. Not
surprisingly, I have talked to several companies here in Vancouver who
are complaining that they are having difficulty finding C++ developers
and are looking at trying to recruit from abroad (eastern Europe
primarily).

I believe that many of these companies will be forced to migrate away
from C++ in the near future, simply because they will not be able to
find C++ programmers in the future. Soon the baby boomer C++
programmers will begin to retire, then the proverbial @@@@ will really
start to hit the fan!

Please tell me I am wrong, and paint me a view of the future which
includes C++.

* blangela:
> If you had asked me 5 years ago about the future of C++, I would have
> told you that its future was assured for many years to come. Recently,
> I have been starting to wonder.
>
> I have been teaching C++ at a local polytechnical school here in
> Vancouver, Canada for approximately 8 years. Six years ago, at the
> height (or should I say volume?) of the internet bubble, I had 80+
> students per semester in my C++ course. Now I am fortunate to have 15
> students per semester. What has changed? I believe that students are
> no longer interested in learning C++. They would rather learn .NET
> languages or Java (my colleages who teach these courses seem to be very
> busy!). I believe it is because these other languages are easier to
> learn and/or are perceived to be more relevant today.
>
> I do believe that C++ is more difficult to learn than many of these
> other languages. Despite my best efforts to make them exciting, I see
> the eyes of my students start to glaze over when I start explaining
> pointers. When I ask them to tokenize an english sentence (using the
> strtok() function)

There you have it: you're teaching the hard C parts first. Am I right
that these students who're choosing between Java, C# and C++ have no
programming background? I then think learning C# (or even JavaScript!)
first is a good idea wrt. learning programming, and learning Java a good
idea wrt. learning something helpful in getting a job without learning
more first.


> and print the token in reverse order (they need to
> declare an array of type char * and save the addresses of the tokens in
> this array), I experience near panic from many of my students. But
> these concepts need to be taught in a responsible C++ course. As was
> pointed out to me recently, Microsoft still requires applicants to
> demonstrate a very good knowledge of string manipulation using C-style
> strings (none of these fancy string class objects!) when recruiting C++
> programmers.

Again, teach 'em use of standard library classes first. std::string
isn't fancy. Show that C++ can be a productive language at that level.

After learning "high level" C++, teach them in a separate course about
the C subset.

Course e.g. entitled "The C subset of C++: pointers & other hairy
stuff", where for example you can go into why two-phase initialization
isn't a very bright idea in general, but why it's necessary on some
limited platforms such as Symbian C++ (lacking C++ exceptions).

--
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is it such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?

blangela wrote:

> Please tell me I am wrong, and paint me a view of the future which
> includes C++.

Modern C++ is a very powerful language, and the existing literature and
corpus of example software lags far behind its capacities.

Java and .NET thrive due to "management by magazine". Because the price of
C++ is a high risk of bugs, marketects can advertise Java (and its direct
clone) as "safer and more robust".

Programmers who actually learn C++ are directly competitive with the VM
languages. Those languages typically _reduce_ their available features, to
make code appear easier to make right. This generally causes you to write
more cruft in those languages.

A C++ programmer will deliberately but _voluntarily_ reduce their set of
working techniques, till they are using ones with matching robustness.

(Note, Java-philes, I did _not_ say smart pointers are the equivalent of
Java references. Each has different robustness profiles.)

The distinction is C++ programmers have the _option_ to get closer to the
metal, when they need it.

Contrarily, the majority of programming these days is high-level; trivially
gluing applications together from large-scale components, such as GUIs and
databases. The GUIs and databases themselves should be slowly written once,
in C++. The high-level code should be rapidly written in a safer and more
flexible scripting language.

There may not always be a world for average C++ coders, but there will
always be a world for the C++ code itself.

--
Phlip
http://www.greencheese.us/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!

I would frame it that way that people are running behind short term
gain.

I am a C++ programmer myself and havent had any training or havent read
any book of C# but I am doing job in C# for 8-9 months now without
facing any real problem and thats because I was good at C++.

When they run for one technology they become lame in a sense that its
temporary and C++ is more or less the base and so its permanent.

As we see now C# has descendant like F# and so you cannot be learning
each of them but if you have the base you can opt for anything anytime
and so still I think C++ is the future.

Thanks
Shabbir
--
www.cfanatic.com - Community discussing C and its derivatives like
Win32, C++, MFC, C# tutorials

On Nov 18, 10:25 am, "blangela" <Bob_Langel...@telus.net> wrote:
> If you had asked me 5 years ago about the future of C++, I would have
> told you that its future was assured for many years to come. Recently,
> I have been starting to wonder.
>
> I have been teaching C++ at a local polytechnical school here in
> Vancouver, Canada for approximately 8 years. Six years ago, at the
> height (or should I say volume?) of the internet bubble, I had 80+
> students per semester in my C++ course. Now I am fortunate to have 15
> students per semester. What has changed? I believe that students are
> no longer interested in learning C++. They would rather learn .NET
> languages or Java (my colleages who teach these courses seem to be very
> busy!). I believe it is because these other languages are easier to
> learn and/or are perceived to be more relevant today.
>
> I do believe that C++ is more difficult to learn than many of these
> other languages. Despite my best efforts to make them exciting, I see
> the eyes of my students start to glaze over when I start explaining
> pointers. When I ask them to tokenize an english sentence (using the
> strtok() function) and print the token in reverse order (they need to
> declare an array of type char * and save the addresses of the tokens in
> this array), I experience near panic from many of my students. But
> these concepts need to be taught in a responsible C++ course. As was
> pointed out to me recently, Microsoft still requires applicants to
> demonstrate a very good knowledge of string manipulation using C-style
> strings (none of these fancy string class objects!) when recruiting C++
> programmers.
>
> The ironic part is there is still a large demand for C++ developers
> here in Vancouver. In fact, the company that I believe employs the
> most developers here in Vancouver, employs almost entirely C++
> programmers. This company, Electronic Arts (if you have not heard of
> them, I guarantee that your kids have -- they create video games) is
> only one of several gaming companies here in Vancouver that employ
> primarily C++ programmers. Other companies like Kodak, MDSA, Nokia,
> MDSI, etc. also employ large numbers of C++ programmers. Not
> surprisingly, I have talked to several companies here in Vancouver who
> are complaining that they are having difficulty finding C++ developers
> and are looking at trying to recruit from abroad (eastern Europe
> primarily).
>
> I believe that many of these companies will be forced to migrate away
> from C++ in the near future, simply because they will not be able to
> find C++ programmers in the future. Soon the baby boomer C++
> programmers will begin to retire, then the proverbial @@@@ will really
> start to hit the fan!
>
> Please tell me I am wrong, and paint me a view of the future which
> includes C++.

[...]

> (Note, Java-philes, I did _not_ say smart pointers are the equivalent of
> Java references. Each has different robustness profiles.)

Java references (e.g., strong thread-safe reference counting) in C++? No
problem:

http://appcore.home.comcast.net/vzoom/refcount/


This can be used as an alternative to Boost shared_ptr, which is only basic
thread-safe....


Any thoughts?

Chris Thomasson wrote:

> Java references (e.g., strong thread-safe reference counting) in C++? No
> problem:
>
> http://appcore.home.comcast.net/vzoom/refcount/

Refcounting is not the same as a GC.

blangela wrote:

> When I ask them to tokenize an english sentence (using the
> strtok() function) and print the token in reverse order (they need to
> declare an array of type char * and save the addresses of the tokens in
> this array), I experience near panic from many of my students.

Maybe students just don't come because they think your course is bad.
They want to learn C++, not C.



> As was
> pointed out to me recently, Microsoft still requires applicants to
> demonstrate a very good knowledge of string manipulation using C-style
> strings (none of these fancy string class objects!) when recruiting C++
> programmers.

Thankfully, Microsoft is not the only company where you can do programming.
Plus Microsoft isn't really doing C++ anyway, more like C with classes.

On 17 Nov 2006 21:25:35 -0800, Bob_Langelaan wrote:
>I have been teaching C++ at a local polytechnical school here in
>Vancouver, Canada for approximately 8 years. Six years ago, at the
>height (or should I say volume?) of the internet bubble, I had 80+
>students per semester in my C++ course. Now I am fortunate to have 15
>students per semester. What has changed? I believe that students are
>no longer interested in learning C++.
>
>I do believe that C++ is more difficult to learn than many of these
>other languages.

IMO, that's the main reason. C++ is unnecessarily and unproductively,
sometimes even ridiculously complex (see e.g.
http://www.bookpool.com/ct/98031). There has been no effort in the
last 10 or so years to make it easier and more accessible. Quite the
contrary, an influential group of people even tries to 'boost' C++ by
continuously introducing yet another level of complexity.

>Despite my best efforts to make them exciting, I see
>the eyes of my students start to glaze over when I start explaining
>pointers.
>But
>these concepts need to be taught in a responsible C++ course. As was
>pointed out to me recently, Microsoft still requires applicants to
>demonstrate a very good knowledge of string manipulation using C-style
>strings (none of these fancy string class objects!) when recruiting C++
>programmers.

C++ is a highly fragmented language. When C++ is discussed one must
always ask: Which C++? Visual C++ (MFC), Embedded C++, Qt C++, C with
classes (the most popular C++), Boost C++, Addison Wesley C++, Game
Programmer C++, ...? This confusing fragmentation is sometimes
reinterpreted as advantage and C++ is touted as 'multiparadigm'
language.

>The ironic part is there is still a large demand for C++ developers
>here in Vancouver. I have talked to several companies here in Vancouver who
>are complaining that they are having difficulty finding C++ developers
>and are looking at trying to recruit from abroad (eastern Europe
>primarily).

There is still demand for C++ developers but currently there is higher
demand for developers in other languages, esp. Java (until the bubble
bursts again).

>I believe that many of these companies will be forced to migrate away
>from C++ in the near future, simply because they will not be able to
>find C++ programmers in the future. Soon the baby boomer C++
>programmers will begin to retire, then the proverbial @@@@ will really
>start to hit the fan!

AFAIK, you can program games today in any language, preferably C#.

The real solution would be C++2, a new version of the C++ language
(not an extension of the current language). I should avoid the
numerous traps, pitfalls and wrong defaults of the current language.
C++2 could be compatible with (but not a superset of) current C and
C++ (through a compatibility mode). Of course, that's a futile
proposal. That kind of language evolution happens in Python, Ruby,
PHP, ... but not in C++.

Best regards,
Roland Pibinger

"loufoque" <> wrote in message
news:455edb8e$0$5411$...
> Chris Thomasson wrote:
>
>> Java references (e.g., strong thread-safe reference counting) in C++? No
>> problem:
>>
>> http://appcore.home.comcast.net/vzoom/refcount/
>
> Refcounting is not the same as a GC.

You can get very similar guarantees' wrt strong atomic thread-safety
level... And, as you know, one can always get around cyclic references via.
clean/coherent synchronization scheme, or custom and/or "built-into-details"
weak pointer logic...

http://groups.google.com/group/comp....c94118046142e8
(more on true atomic refcounting... interesting thread indeed... ?)



I would argue that a coupling of clean synchronization interface in which
cyclic references are rare, with some lightweight weak-pointer scheme would
give you strong guarantees' of Java references, in C++, but at a
lower-level... You have more control over the atomic operations and memory
barrier operations, and you don't need to tie yourself to a VM "system"
API...

Humm...

Roland Pibinger wrote:

> C++ is a highly fragmented language. When C++ is discussed one must
> always ask: Which C++? Visual C++ (MFC), Embedded C++, Qt C++, C with
> classes (the most popular C++), Boost C++, Addison Wesley C++, Game
> Programmer C++, ...? This confusing fragmentation is sometimes
> reinterpreted as advantage and C++ is touted as 'multiparadigm'
> language.

Looks like you didn't get it at all. They're just frameworks. Libraries.
It's the same C++ but the libraries are designed differently and use
different language features.

Java, for example, also has multiple frameworks, even for one unique
thing (GUI, game development...)

The multiparadigm aspect isn't related to that at all. C++ is said to be
multiparadigm because it has supports for various kinds of programming
paradigms : imperative, object-oriented, generic, and possibly more.


> AFAIK, you can program games today in any language, preferably C#.

Games is one of the key domains that really need an efficient language
like C++...


> The real solution would be C++2, a new version of the C++ language
> (not an extension of the current language). I should avoid the
> numerous traps, pitfalls and wrong defaults of the current language.

> C++2 could be compatible with (but not a superset of) current C and
> C++ (through a compatibility mode).

The main traps and pitfalls in C++ are from its compatibility with C.