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Thanks for your answers.
I already know programming in Java and I am starting studying the
perl. I would like to learn C or C++ but I need someone to tell me
the + and - of each one. I have noticed that every computer exploit
and almost every linux program is builted in C why is that? Because
they just know to program in C or C is better for that kind of
programs and why? Can somebody give an example of big project that
you can achive with C and you cant with C++ or vice versa? Also can
somebody suggest me a book for both of them ! (I dont want something
for begginers i want something to be as much complete book as it can
be, with all the topics you need to know for a programming language
.)Sorry for the number of the questions but i am a little bit
confused.
Thanks one more time



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Big-Goofy wrote:
> Thanks for your answers.
> I already know programming in Java and I am starting studying the
> perl. I would like to learn C or C++ but I need someone to tell me
> the + and - of each one.

I hope you're not blind and should see the two pluses in C++... I
don't see any minuses there, do you? Neither does C have any minuses.
It just doesn't have any pluses, that's all.

> I have noticed that every computer exploit

Is that what you're trying to get into?

> and almost every linux program is builted in C why is that? Because
> they just know to program in C or C is better for that kind of
> programs and why? Can somebody give an example of big project that
> you can achive with C and you cant with C++ or vice versa?

Find Bjarne Stroustrup's home page and read all of it.

> Also can
> somebody suggest me a book for both of them ! (I dont want something
> for begginers i want something to be as much complete book as it can
> be, with all the topics you need to know for a programming language
> .)Sorry for the number of the questions but i am a little bit
> confused.

Just Google for book suggestions. It's getting really old. Show us
that you're ready to learn either of the languages by applyting some
effort to collecting information.

V
--
Please remove capital 'A's when replying by e-mail
I do not respond to top-posted replies, please don't ask

Big-Goofy wrote:

> I already know programming in Java and I am starting studying the
> perl.

I have used Perl for years, and come to the conclusion that its author,
Larry Wall, must be a very fast, accurate typist.

Download Ruby to see how clean and elegant a language can get!

> I would like to learn C or C++ but I need someone to tell me
> the + and - of each one. I have noticed that every computer exploit
> and almost every linux program is builted in C why is that?

Roughly speaking, C is older and more Standard, so it has a much bigger
establish corpus of legacy code. Including Linux. By "more Standard" I mean
that more Standard-compliant code has been written to work in more
Standard-compliant compilers than C++.

(I suspect we still don't have a standard-conforming compiler, despite
almost a decade of a ratified Standard. And I suspect that the committees
are upgrading this Standard before it even achieves compliance!!)

Entry level programmers don't need to worry about any of that. Learn C++
first, and learn enough C to diagnose and debug it. Learn C++ as a
high-level language, starting with features like std::string. Then learn C
things like strlen(), so you can avoid the troubles these cause.

> Because
> they just know to program in C or C is better for that kind of
> programs and why?

Anything you can do in C, you can do the same way, with better typesafety
and more conveniences, in C++.

Almost anything you can do in C, you can do better in C++ using Object
Oriented, Generic, and similar paradigms.

The only thing you can't do is the very last step of optimization. Kernels
like Linux's need that (and you _don't_), so they must use C-style code. C++
can compile C-style code, so they still don't need C.

Most C code can be tweaked to compile in C++. But Linux shouldn't compile as
C++ because Linux works on many kinds of CPU hardware, and some of them
don't have C++ compilers. Only situations without a C++ compiler strictly
need C.

> Can somebody give an example of big project that
> you can achive with C and you cant with C++ or vice versa?

C++ is better for very large projects because it allows you to create
modules and components better than C. C has poorer support for
encapsulation, which is a good high-level technique to prevent bugs.

> Also can
> somebody suggest me a book for both of them ! (I dont want something
> for begginers i want something to be as much complete book as it can
> be, with all the topics you need to know for a programming language
> .)

Tip: Most programming today should not be in a C language at all. It should
be in a soft rapid language (like Ruby or Python) where you don't need to
reinvent the wheel all the time.

To proceed in C++, read /The C++ Programming Language, 3rd Edition/ by
Bjarne Stroustrup. It fits the "complete" spot you requested.

--
Phlip
http://www.greencheese.us/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!

Phlip wrote :

> Roughly speaking, C is older and more Standard, so it has a much bigger
> establish corpus of legacy code. Including Linux. By "more Standard" I mean
> that more Standard-compliant code has been written to work in more
> Standard-compliant compilers than C++.

AFAIK, there is only one frontend which is compliant to the latest C
standard, just like for C++.
And it's the same one, actually.


> The only thing you can't do is the very last step of optimization. Kernels
> like Linux's need that (and you _don't_), so they must use C-style code. C++
> can compile C-style code, so they still don't need C.

Not really.
A lot of notable C++ features are not only acceptable in a kernel but
can also boost its performance and improve its design.

loufoque wrote:

>> The only thing you can't do is the very last step of optimization.
>> Kernels like Linux's need that (and you _don't_), so they must use
>> C-style code. C++ can compile C-style code, so they still don't need C.
>
> Not really.
> A lot of notable C++ features are not only acceptable in a kernel but can
> also boost its performance and improve its design.

Oops; right. I was trying too hard to say "C++ is always better than C, even
for C-style optimization" that I forgot about "C++-style optimization".

An OS kernel built out of a sick "expression metatemplate" package, taking
hours to compile, would shred!!!

And would still be maintainable, unlike the raw Assembly it would compete
with.

--
Phlip
http://www.greencheese.us/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!

Phlip wrote:
<...>

> Most C code can be tweaked to compile in C++. But Linux shouldn't compile as
> C++ because Linux works on many kinds of CPU hardware, and some of them
> don't have C++ compilers. Only situations without a C++ compiler strictly
> need C.

re: Linux, AFAIK Linus Torvalds just plain doesnt like C++, and that
is the beginning and end of the matter. Theres an interview or quote
somewhere... but where I don't know.

regards
Andy Little

kwikius wrote:
> Phlip wrote:
> <...>
>
>> Most C code can be tweaked to compile in C++. But Linux shouldn't compile as
>> C++ because Linux works on many kinds of CPU hardware, and some of them
>> don't have C++ compilers. Only situations without a C++ compiler strictly
>> need C.
>
> re: Linux, AFAIK Linus Torvalds just plain doesnt like C++, and that
> is the beginning and end of the matter. Theres an interview or quote
> somewhere... but where I don't know.
>
Linux, fortunately, has gone way beyond the personal whims of Linus.
Just about every implementation of Linux I've seen uses the GCC suite
for it's compilers which pretty much comes with both C and C++. The
few exceptions also provide C++ environments.

There's no trememdously compelling reason to NOT allow C++ in the
kenrel. There are user-mode programs in LINUX that are written in
C++ (and a bunch of them like the X libraries would fare better had
they been written in a real object-oriented language rather than a
half-assed attempt to implement OO concept in strict C.

kwikius wrote :

> re: Linux, AFAIK Linus Torvalds just plain doesnt like C++, and that
> is the beginning and end of the matter. Theres an interview or quote
> somewhere... but where I don't know.

Did you mean this quote ? (It's from 2004 I think)
You can obviously see he doesn't know C++ well and that moreover he does
nothing more than insult C++ and the people that use it.

[Beginning of quote]

The fact is, C++ compilers are not trustworthy. They were even worse in
1992, but some fundamental facts haven't changed:

- the whole C++ exception handling thing is fundamentally broken. It's
_especially_ broken for kernels.
- any compiler or language that likes to hide things like memory
allocations behind your back just isn't a good choice for a kernel.
- you can write object-oriented code (useful for filesystems etc) in C,
_without_ the crap that is C++.

In general, I'd say that anybody who designs his kernel modules for C++ is
either
(a) looking for problems
(b) a C++ bigot that can't see what he is writing is really just C anyway
(c) was given an assignment in CS class to do so.

[End of quote]

wrote:
>>> Thanks for your answers.
>>> I already know programming in Java and I am starting studying the perl.
>>> I would like to learn C or C++ but I need someone to tell
>>> me the + and - of each one.

So you want to learn C or C++. (thank God, you did not ask C/C++ ).

Q: do you want to eat an apple or an orange?

A: http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite/ &
http://www.research.att.com/~bs/papers.html

C & C++ are different lanugaes. you do not need to post it here, do
these 4 things:

1.) First, write down your goals & plan of your career, where & why you
want to go & in which direction (you know "software world" has many
domains or application areas)

2.) Search for jobs you want on your faourite (but also popular) job
site. i like "www.monsterindia.com" (as i live in India)

3.) after collecting the information from last 2 points, now, search
the archives of 4 newsgroups "comp.lang.c", "comp.lang.c++",
"comp.lang.c++.moderated" & "alt.comp.lang.learn.c-c++" with following
keywords: "c or c++", "why c++", "why c" etc. etc. then read all the
information. If you have a printer(like me, i have a dot-matrix ,
then take print-outs of things which seem important from the
perspective of information you collected from points 1 & 2.

4.) know that its 14th day since you started from point 1.

this will 1st, remove the "fog of confusion" & 2nd, you will get a much
better, an accurate & focused answer.

actually i was pondering into the same confusion & i relieved my pain
in the same way (but i used quite "a trial & error method" & what i
told you is the *extract* of my experience).

>>> I have noticed that every computer exploit and almost every linux program is builted in C
>>> why is that? Because they just know to program in C or C is better for that kind of
>>> programs and why?

C is older than C++ & was standardized almost a decade ago & hence it
has large community base. even Linus Torvald created Linux kernel many
years ago (IIRC in early 1990s & C++ was standardized in 1998, the year
C++ Primer 3/e was published)

> Can somebody give an example of big project that
> you can achive with C and you cant with C++ or vice versa?

do the 4 points.

> Also can somebody suggest me a book for both of them !

Now, that will be a "recipe for disaster", if somebody does so.

> (I dont want something
> for begginers i want something to be as much complete book as it can
> be, with all the topics you need to know for a programming language
> .)Sorry for the number of the questions but i am a little bit
> confused.

read & do those 4 points, only then ask for a book. Otherwise you will
waste a lot of money which you can earn later but you can not earn the
time you will loose.


take care

thanks

"arnuld'

Victor Bazarov wrote:
> Big-Goofy wrote:
> > Thanks for your answers.
> > I already know programming in Java and I am starting studying the
> > perl. I would like to learn C or C++ but I need someone to tell me
> > the + and - of each one.
>
> I hope you're not blind and should see the two pluses in C++... I
> don't see any minuses there, do you? Neither does C have any minuses.
> It just doesn't have any pluses, that's all.

Ha...Ha...Ha....

> > I have noticed that every computer exploit
>
> Is that what you're trying to get into?

Hmmm... Victor is really serious here.

> > and almost every linux program is builted in C why is that? Because
> > they just know to program in C or C is better for that kind of
> > programs and why? Can somebody give an example of big project that
> > you can achive with C and you cant with C++ or vice versa?
>
> Find Bjarne Stroustrup's home page and read all of it.


Best Answer Award, so far.

"arnuld"