Quality of MCSEs

OK, I know the MCSE is not the most respected of accreditations, but lately
the people coming through my door for interview are getting worse and worse
by the day. I would have thought that the UKs IT recession would mean there
were a plethora of able candidates to choose from, but it seems there's just
a lot more dross on the market to wade through, and it's as hard as it ever
was to find good people.

Moan over...I am TDA for a large project looking to deliver MS enterprise
solutions and, whilst I do not believe the MCSE is the be all and end all, I
do look at it as a *guideline* to ability, to be backed up by relevant
consulting experience and evident skill in interview. However, this is where
I repeatedly find candidates lacking; MCSE and multiple MCPs look great on
paper but these people often fail the most simple architecture questions and
do not have the right approach for consulting work.

What other accreditations do people believe are a reasonable pointer for
consultancy skills, rather than support type skills (which the MCSE always
seems to indicate)? Would it not be prudent for MS to introduce a more
consultancy\architecture orientated curriculum and exams, and admit that the
MCSE is really geared more towards people training for support roles?

Thoughts welcome

Ben

Ben Robinson

for consultancy skills I'd looked towards maybe Prince2 Project Management
accreditations

Kerry

Kerry Hoskin
PC Network Manager
Plymouth Marine Laboratory


"Ben Robinson" <> wrote in message
news:...
> OK, I know the MCSE is not the most respected of accreditations, but
lately
> the people coming through my door for interview are getting worse and
worse
> by the day. I would have thought that the UKs IT recession would mean
there
> were a plethora of able candidates to choose from, but it seems there's
just
> a lot more dross on the market to wade through, and it's as hard as it
ever
> was to find good people.
>
> Moan over...I am TDA for a large project looking to deliver MS enterprise
> solutions and, whilst I do not believe the MCSE is the be all and end all,
I
> do look at it as a *guideline* to ability, to be backed up by relevant
> consulting experience and evident skill in interview. However, this is
where
> I repeatedly find candidates lacking; MCSE and multiple MCPs look great on
> paper but these people often fail the most simple architecture questions
and
> do not have the right approach for consulting work.
>
> What other accreditations do people believe are a reasonable pointer for
> consultancy skills, rather than support type skills (which the MCSE always
> seems to indicate)? Would it not be prudent for MS to introduce a more
> consultancy\architecture orientated curriculum and exams, and admit that
the
> MCSE is really geared more towards people training for support roles?
>
> Thoughts welcome
>
> Ben
>
>

Kerry Hoskin

the simple way i would put it is that, mainly, the MCSE is a reactive
certification
project management et-al should, if handled correctly be a pro active role.
The trouble with the term consultant can have quite a few meanings.
One of the best project managers i've come across wasn't that strong on the
technology, but had a great feel for what needed to be done and what was
going to happen. strategic thinkers are few and far between, bearing in mind
that many companies operate on a "only as good as you last f***-up" policy.
is it any surprise that people get into that mode..



"Ben Robinson" <> wrote in message
news:...
> OK, I know the MCSE is not the most respected of accreditations, but
lately
> the people coming through my door for interview are getting worse and
worse
> by the day. I would have thought that the UKs IT recession would mean
there
> were a plethora of able candidates to choose from, but it seems there's
just
> a lot more dross on the market to wade through, and it's as hard as it
ever
> was to find good people.
>
> Moan over...I am TDA for a large project looking to deliver MS enterprise
> solutions and, whilst I do not believe the MCSE is the be all and end all,
I
> do look at it as a *guideline* to ability, to be backed up by relevant
> consulting experience and evident skill in interview. However, this is
where
> I repeatedly find candidates lacking; MCSE and multiple MCPs look great on
> paper but these people often fail the most simple architecture questions
and
> do not have the right approach for consulting work.
>
> What other accreditations do people believe are a reasonable pointer for
> consultancy skills, rather than support type skills (which the MCSE always
> seems to indicate)? Would it not be prudent for MS to introduce a more
> consultancy\architecture orientated curriculum and exams, and admit that
the
> MCSE is really geared more towards people training for support roles?
>
> Thoughts welcome
>
> Ben
>
>

billyw

"Ben Robinson" <> wrote in message
news:...
> OK, I know the MCSE is not the most respected of accreditations, but
lately
> the people coming through my door for interview are getting worse and
worse
> by the day. I would have thought that the UKs IT recession would mean
there
> were a plethora of able candidates to choose from, but it seems there's
just
> a lot more dross on the market to wade through, and it's as hard as it
ever
> was to find good people.
>
[snip]

Any new certification only separates the good from the bad for the amount of
time it takes the IT peanut gallery to figure out how to pass the tests.
Once that happens, there is nothing but a flood of certified worthlessness.
The MCSE has been around so long, it's value just by itself is now
meaningless. A degree and/or years of experience are much better indicators
of value. The worthlessness of the IT peanut gallery are nearly always
weeded out during four years of college courses, and very rarely can they
hold a job with the same company for any significant amount of time. When
you find a person who is educated and experienced, then the certification
shows they also know the skills you need.

Of course there always is the random diamond in the rough, the great
employee who never had the chance to go to college, and is somehow always
the "victim" of the economy such that he can't stay with a company for a
significant amount of time. You just have to ask yourself, do you have time
during your day to go looking for diamonds in the rough?

--
Politician Spock
MCSA, CCEA, MCNGP #15
The MCNGP Team - We're here to help

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
You assume all risk for your use. Not responsible for your inability to
understand logic, ambiguous references, sarcasm, the imaginary gnomes
living in my garden, or William Shatner's acting.
© 2003 Star Trek Federation. All rights reserved.

Politician Spock

this is his attempt at braindumping candidate selection

"Paul Lynch" <> wrote in message
news: m...
> Would it not be prudent for you to be a little smarter when it comes
> to sifting through CV's and actually look for clues which indicate
> real world experience ?
>
> Or are you hoping that someone else will do that for you ?
>
> Paul Lynch
> MCSE
>
> "Ben Robinson" <> wrote in message
news:<>...
> > OK, I know the MCSE is not the most respected of accreditations, but
lately
> > the people coming through my door for interview are getting worse and
worse
> > by the day. I would have thought that the UKs IT recession would mean
there
> > were a plethora of able candidates to choose from, but it seems there's
just
> > a lot more dross on the market to wade through, and it's as hard as it
ever
> > was to find good people.
> >
> > Moan over...I am TDA for a large project looking to deliver MS
enterprise
> > solutions and, whilst I do not believe the MCSE is the be all and end
all, I
> > do look at it as a *guideline* to ability, to be backed up by relevant
> > consulting experience and evident skill in interview. However, this is
where
> > I repeatedly find candidates lacking; MCSE and multiple MCPs look great
on
> > paper but these people often fail the most simple architecture questions
and
> > do not have the right approach for consulting work.
> >
> > What other accreditations do people believe are a reasonable pointer for
> > consultancy skills, rather than support type skills (which the MCSE
always
> > seems to indicate)? Would it not be prudent for MS to introduce a more
> > consultancy\architecture orientated curriculum and exams, and admit that
the
> > MCSE is really geared more towards people training for support roles?
> >
> > Thoughts welcome
> >
> > Ben

Consultant

"Consultant" <> wrote in message news:<>...
> this is his attempt at braindumping candidate selection

There's a beautiful, almost Kafka-esque irony in that situation if you
think about it....

Employer seeking to take shortcuts on selection process ends up
employing candidate who took shortcuts in certification process....
repeat until fade..

Paul

Paul Lynch

indeed

"Paul Lynch" <> wrote in message
news: om...
> "Consultant" <> wrote in message
news:<>...
> > this is his attempt at braindumping candidate selection
>
> There's a beautiful, almost Kafka-esque irony in that situation if you
> think about it....
>
> Employer seeking to take shortcuts on selection process ends up
> employing candidate who took shortcuts in certification process....
> repeat until fade..
>
> Paul

Consultant

posts like the original make me want to turn in my MCSE, my 8 years
experience and get into management to put moron managers like this out
of a job. As a techie I've been screaming for years that I would make
a good manager, mainly due to my "been there, done that" attitude,
obviously this guys is just a 4 year BA management flunky right out of
a dilbert strip. This is what worries me about IT, and why I'm
considering getting out of it. Everyone wants to be "wronged" in some
way so that they can have an excuse to skimp, cut corners, empty
promises etc. It happens all the way from the CIO's to the Paper
MCP's.

<RANT OVER>

Good luck finding a qualified candidate, you have joined the masses
that is looking for someone that doesn't exist. I can tell from your
tone that your are expecting a CCIE, PMI, MCSE2004 guy to walk in and
kiss your feet because you offered him 45k for an 6month gig migrating
W95 desktops to w2k, which incidentally YOUR boss tasked you with 2
years ago and you are just now getting around to it because you
couldn't find qualified people to do the work. Whatever happened to
employers looking for a good "person" and helping him to grow into the
employee you so desire. True, employees need to understand that their
first job should not be as CIO and that they will be perhaps
"underpaid" by their account, but with demonstrated moves to help them
grow and move up they should be more than content.

<OK, RANT IS NOW OVER>

J
MCSE, CCA, BA, 8yrs

"Consultant" <> wrote in message news:<>...
> indeed
>
> "Paul Lynch" <> wrote in message
> news: om...
> > "Consultant" <> wrote in message
> news:<>...
> > > this is his attempt at braindumping candidate selection
> >
> > There's a beautiful, almost Kafka-esque irony in that situation if you
> > think about it....
> >
> > Employer seeking to take shortcuts on selection process ends up
> > employing candidate who took shortcuts in certification process....
> > repeat until fade..
> >
> > Paul

cyberpunk

your rant show's your not management material. personally i despise most
managers, usually they are just someone's friend, not there because they are
good or anything.
i think u need to find a friend..

"cyberpunk" <> wrote in message
news: m...
> posts like the original make me want to turn in my MCSE, my 8 years
> experience and get into management to put moron managers like this out
> of a job. As a techie I've been screaming for years that I would make
> a good manager, mainly due to my "been there, done that" attitude,
> obviously this guys is just a 4 year BA management flunky right out of
> a dilbert strip. This is what worries me about IT, and why I'm
> considering getting out of it. Everyone wants to be "wronged" in some
> way so that they can have an excuse to skimp, cut corners, empty
> promises etc. It happens all the way from the CIO's to the Paper
> MCP's.
>
> <RANT OVER>
>
> Good luck finding a qualified candidate, you have joined the masses
> that is looking for someone that doesn't exist. I can tell from your
> tone that your are expecting a CCIE, PMI, MCSE2004 guy to walk in and
> kiss your feet because you offered him 45k for an 6month gig migrating
> W95 desktops to w2k, which incidentally YOUR boss tasked you with 2
> years ago and you are just now getting around to it because you
> couldn't find qualified people to do the work. Whatever happened to
> employers looking for a good "person" and helping him to grow into the
> employee you so desire. True, employees need to understand that their
> first job should not be as CIO and that they will be perhaps
> "underpaid" by their account, but with demonstrated moves to help them
> grow and move up they should be more than content.
>
> <OK, RANT IS NOW OVER>
>
> J
> MCSE, CCA, BA, 8yrs
>
> "Consultant" <> wrote in message
news:<>...
> > indeed
> >
> > "Paul Lynch" <> wrote in message
> > news: om...
> > > "Consultant" <> wrote in message
> > news:<>...
> > > > this is his attempt at braindumping candidate selection
> > >
> > > There's a beautiful, almost Kafka-esque irony in that situation if you
> > > think about it....
> > >
> > > Employer seeking to take shortcuts on selection process ends up
> > > employing candidate who took shortcuts in certification process....
> > > repeat until fade..
> > >
> > > Paul

billyw

i like your attitude young man



"cyberpunk" <> wrote in message
news: m...
> posts like the original make me want to turn in my MCSE, my 8 years
> experience and get into management to put moron managers like this out
> of a job. As a techie I've been screaming for years that I would make
> a good manager, mainly due to my "been there, done that" attitude,
> obviously this guys is just a 4 year BA management flunky right out of
> a dilbert strip. This is what worries me about IT, and why I'm
> considering getting out of it. Everyone wants to be "wronged" in some
> way so that they can have an excuse to skimp, cut corners, empty
> promises etc. It happens all the way from the CIO's to the Paper
> MCP's.
>
> <RANT OVER>
>
> Good luck finding a qualified candidate, you have joined the masses
> that is looking for someone that doesn't exist. I can tell from your
> tone that your are expecting a CCIE, PMI, MCSE2004 guy to walk in and
> kiss your feet because you offered him 45k for an 6month gig migrating
> W95 desktops to w2k, which incidentally YOUR boss tasked you with 2
> years ago and you are just now getting around to it because you
> couldn't find qualified people to do the work. Whatever happened to
> employers looking for a good "person" and helping him to grow into the
> employee you so desire. True, employees need to understand that their
> first job should not be as CIO and that they will be perhaps
> "underpaid" by their account, but with demonstrated moves to help them
> grow and move up they should be more than content.
>
> <OK, RANT IS NOW OVER>
>
> J
> MCSE, CCA, BA, 8yrs
>
> "Consultant" <> wrote in message
news:<>...
> > indeed
> >
> > "Paul Lynch" <> wrote in message
> > news: om...
> > > "Consultant" <> wrote in message
> > news:<>...
> > > > this is his attempt at braindumping candidate selection
> > >
> > > There's a beautiful, almost Kafka-esque irony in that situation if you
> > > think about it....
> > >
> > > Employer seeking to take shortcuts on selection process ends up
> > > employing candidate who took shortcuts in certification process....
> > > repeat until fade..
> > >
> > > Paul

Consultant