Question about certs

I don’t understand why so many seem down right resentful of people with
certifications. The only reason I can think of (from someone who hasn’t been
officially in the industy) is that certified candidates are being given
positions that don’t reflect their work experience.

I don’t see certs as a way to get someone’s job who has more experience. I
see certs as a competitive advantage over candidates who have the same
experience as I do. Given two candidates with the exact same level of
experience why wouldn’t one hire the certified professional instead?

For me (being green) I have invested 650 hours and 7900 pages of material
that I would otherwise have not have bothered with, or if I did would have
been extreemly random in nature. That has GOT to stand for something.

I am a huge adovcate of self study but its hard to proove that without a
certification as I see it.

Sean, MCAD

=?Utf-8?B?U2Vhbg==?=

Well said.

I think as more people with certs move up through the profession, the more
certs will be recognised as a true achievement.

Unfortunately, I think a lot of harm has also been done by "paper MCSDs",
although I think "paper MCSEs" are much more prevalent. Microsoft state that
you should have a minimum of 2 years (I think) experience before taking the
certs. Many colleges and training centers however will coach complete
beginners to pass these exams with no experience. Unfortunately, some people
then take this to mean that they are easy too pass.

Another point is that a prospective employer who sees no value in the work
that you went through to get the certification is probably not one you'd
want to work for. It clearly illustrates their view of training and career
development.

David

David Kavanagh

The point of self study but without having something that validates it, is a
very common filter even if you have experience.

Before I take my first exam, I have read a lot of self-study kits, but
because I didn't have something valid as "proof" of my knowledge, it was
hard to believe.

Then, I decided to take exams and now I have enough proof plus my past work
(websites, software projects) that I can show and demonstrate to the
employers or possible customers about my proeficiency in my work

"Sean" <> wrote in message
news:3EA87870-E9C3-4F8F-A887-...
>I don't understand why so many seem down right resentful of people with
> certifications. The only reason I can think of (from someone who hasn't
> been
> officially in the industy) is that certified candidates are being given
> positions that don't reflect their work experience.
>
> I don't see certs as a way to get someone's job who has more experience. I
> see certs as a competitive advantage over candidates who have the same
> experience as I do. Given two candidates with the exact same level of
> experience why wouldn't one hire the certified professional instead?
>
> For me (being green) I have invested 650 hours and 7900 pages of material
> that I would otherwise have not have bothered with, or if I did would have
> been extreemly random in nature. That has GOT to stand for something.
>
> I am a huge adovcate of self study but its hard to proove that without a
> certification as I see it.
>
> Sean, MCAD
>

Victor Guillen

What I find frustrating with this line of logic some employers may have is
that they are basically saying "if you are in college and have a free weekend
watch TV instead of learning SQL". Completely illogical in my mind and would
perfer not to work for such companies.



"David Kavanagh" wrote:

> Well said.
>
> I think as more people with certs move up through the profession, the more
> certs will be recognised as a true achievement.
>
> Unfortunately, I think a lot of harm has also been done by "paper MCSDs",
> although I think "paper MCSEs" are much more prevalent. Microsoft state that
> you should have a minimum of 2 years (I think) experience before taking the
> certs. Many colleges and training centers however will coach complete
> beginners to pass these exams with no experience. Unfortunately, some people
> then take this to mean that they are easy too pass.
>
> Another point is that a prospective employer who sees no value in the work
> that you went through to get the certification is probably not one you'd
> want to work for. It clearly illustrates their view of training and career
> development.
>
> David
>

=?Utf-8?B?U2Vhbg==?=

>I think as more people with certs move up through the profession, the more
>certs will be recognised as a true achievement.

Not until the new formats become the de facto norm. The current format
is too basic and open to abuse by the cheats and the companies that
shamelessly exploit them.

>Unfortunately, I think a lot of harm has also been done by "paper MCSDs",
>although I think "paper MCSEs" are much more prevalent. Microsoft state that
>you should have a minimum of 2 years (I think) experience before taking the
>certs. Many colleges and training centers however will coach complete
>beginners to pass these exams with no experience. Unfortunately, some people
>then take this to mean that they are easy too pass.
>
>Another point is that a prospective employer who sees no value in the work
>that you went through to get the certification is probably not one you'd
>want to work for. It clearly illustrates their view of training and career
>development.

Not really. Any employer no matter what profession, should care more
about the relevant experience a prospective employee has. Naturally
for entry level positions, this comes down to the level of education
one has achieved.

Within IT this experience is not simply being able to spew out the
latest buzz, but more so being able to demonstrate a fundamental
understanding of the business sector of the employer. An experienced
software engineer from the manufacturing sector would be of little use
to banking corp. I made the [reverse] switch a year back and
understanding manufacturing is a different ball game to finance.

As far as certification goes with an employer, well certification does
mean a lot if it proves the holder is indeed certified to perform the
tasks defined within the scope of the certification. Sadly for the
reason you mentioned above, this is not the case with ms [and other]
vendors certification process. Basically the [current] format of the
exams do prove the holder even understands the questions!
Understanding the question and being able to describe and explain how
the answers were derived is a fundamental prerequisite for any
meaningful examination.

Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3

Kline Sphere

>What I find frustrating with this line of logic some employers may have is
>that they are basically saying "if you are in college and have a free weekend
>watch TV instead of learning SQL".

If you're in college you should be learning about relation theory and
all that goes with it as part of the course, assuming that is, the
degree is related to IT. If you're not doing a IT related degree, as
an employer, I'd say why not?

Personally when I was at college/unversity I spent the weekends
chasing girls

Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3

Kline Sphere

>The point of self study but without having something that validates it, is a
>very common filter even if you have experience.

As it stands today, it is a pointless 'filter'. Ask yourself how can
an employer distinguish between an mcsd holder who genuinely
understands the subjects and someone who has dumped their way through?

Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3

Kline Sphere

I know, you're right, but the thing is how a recuiter will stop prejudging
that matter?

If we know that is pointless, the experience it will talk about the
developer or the employee

"Kline Sphere" <.@> wrote in message
news:...
> >The point of self study but without having something that validates it,
> >is a
>>very common filter even if you have experience.
>
> As it stands today, it is a pointless 'filter'. Ask yourself how can
> an employer distinguish between an mcsd holder who genuinely
> understands the subjects and someone who has dumped their way through?
>
> Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3

Blackmetal

>I know, you're right, but the thing is how a recuiter will stop prejudging
>that matter?

Another topic. I have no idea why so many companies use so called
recruitment agencies. How a company, other than your own, understands
the type of people you wish to employ is quite beyond me.

Saying that, I have no idea why any company, other than ms partners
maybe, would put *any* ms certification ahead of real world
experience.

>If we know that is pointless, the experience it will talk about the
>developer or the employee

Sorry, don't understand what you mean?

Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3

Kline Sphere

> Another topic. I have no idea why so many companies use so called
> recruitment agencies. How a company, other than your own, understands
> the type of people you wish to employ is quite beyond me.

That's why you'll see a lot of companies say, "No third party calls/resumes
accepted"

Hong Kong Phooey