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College vs Cert

 
 
EggHead
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Posts: n/a
 
      07-11-2005
haha, if all you want is those M$ stuff, you should enroll .net programmer
or OOP programmer cert/diploma at your college rather than go to take any
degree program from your
college. I think not that many school will put those stuff in their degree
courses' outline.

Are those stuff in your courses' outline?

The truth is that none of my courses' outline has web services, ADO.net, or
even RPC. However, I learn those when I was doing my courses' homework or my
working project.
A degree plan should teaches you how to do a basic research, like how to
find out how to do a Link-List search in C# base on what you already know
and what you will find. If a degree plan only spoon feed you how to do those
M$ stuff, then what is the different between a degree and a programmer
cert/diploma?

BTW, 3.95 GPA means nothing if your college is Batman College, unless IT
unemployment rate is less than 3% at your area.

In my CS program, there is a option for a student to take MCSD or SCJD.
However, it is only equal to 3 course cerdits (around part-time for one
semester). As you can see, no one will compare a dregree to a MCSD.

Egghead

"Sean" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> Well this continues to divert from what I was asking and I thought I made
> it
> clear I was not asking which one a person should get. I was strictly
> asking
> about the volume of material itself and the difficultly of it. But since
> we
> are going down that road let me try to make it as clear and simple as I
> can.
>
> Students in my IT degree plan will be lucky to even know what ADO is
> before
> they graduate, let alone what it does. We will not cover web services,
> .net
> remoting, or serviced components (and I am 1000% positive on remoting and
> serviced components, those words will not even be mentioned in 4 years)
>
> I dont know about other degree plans but at least for mine the concept
> that
> my IT degree plan prepares you for anything other then how to write words
> on
> paper is hysterical to me.
>
> I already have one degree and worked in a similar industry for 13 years of
> which was close to developers who I interacted from time to time and I can
> assure you that at least my IT degree plan doesnt even come into the
> same
> general ballpark as MCAD or MCSD.
>
> I am not askin how to get into the business. I think my 3.95 GPA and MCAD
> soon to be MCSD certification will be fine.



 
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EggHead
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      07-11-2005
haha,

Assume this is a jr position.

OK, none of them have any experience in the field. It means almost clueless.

Assume they are from the same $_Sucking college with 4.0 GPA

I will C who has a better people skill and can represent his idea better in
the interview. This is VERY VERY important when a tester try to explain the
bug to the developer and not offend the developer.

The problem for MCAD or MCSD or other few MC format certs is that how can
an employer know the candidiate has hand-on exp in .net debugging or in
windows programming or at least put in afford to read the MS press book,
or he is just memorizing the dump answers.

Of course, it will be different for SCJD

Regarding the debugging basics, I will train A&B the same way, just give
them the manual and tell them to read it , I need to make sure them is in
the same bar as what we have in our tester team. So, it is not a matter
after all.

Sean, the problem is that you need to see from 10 miles up

However, if :

A:
1. 4 yrs exp in the similar position
2. college degree
3. no cert

B:
1. 3 yrs exp in the similar position
2. $_Sucking college degree
3. MCAD or MCSD or any other similar cert


B will be my first choice

If you think my choice is BAIS, go to ask your developer friend.

Egghead.

"Sean" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> Position = debugger for .Net
>
> Candidate A
> 1.no experience
> 2.college degree
> 3.no clue what tracing, logs or anything else regarding debug for that
> matter
>
> Canidate B
> 1.no experience
> 2.college degree
> 3.MCAD
>
> Which one do you pick at the same rate. It boils down to the basics here,
> the first day at work you have to choice of teaching someone the basics of
> debugging before explaining your companies standards and tools or you can
> just jump to your companies standards and tools and skip all the debugging
> basics.
>
> The answer to this question could be any easier in my mind.
>



 
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=?Utf-8?B?U2Vhbg==?=
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      07-12-2005
My college doesnt have the degree/cert program, wish they did.

GPA does matter, it has in my past life, it has with my friends as well and
Honors societies match you up with jobs that are otherwise not listed.

Granted Loser U (which is what I attend) one must maintain a higher GPA then
others at better colleges and in fact there is even a rating system that
takes that into effect from what I understand.

If GPA was not important we wouldnt have it becuase its a horrific hassle
when it comes to adminstration, testing and even learning itself.

If you graduate Summa its a very good thing. Some recuriters will not even
look at your resume unless you have a 3.0 or better.

As it turns out, if you have two canidates for a junior position and neither
one of them have experience, the academics both college and certs will become
the filtering process for the interview. I personally, also have an
application I can demo and explain all the details.

Thing is, until tonight, I had no idea the real questions on the exams were
floating around which really sucks becuase I got my MCAD 100% from reading
and building.

I personally am in very good shape on all fronts including "word of mouth".
I had two internship offers which I wasnt looking for and turned them down
becuase I wanted to study cert. additionally the dean said he would write a
letter of recomendation.. I should brag so much it could be my achillies.

Anyway, back to the orginal point of my post I just basically wanted to get
an idea if people felt these exams were much more intensive then college
work, they have been for me.

I clock my actual study time. In college I spend more time going to class
and sitting in class then I actually studying and I learn much better on my
own and with an expert handy to ask questions. Some classes in fact I spend
more time with my writtings then I do actually learning something new. With
certs its intense 100% learning compared to college work. I have only taken
one class were I felt each test covered the same level of actual study time
that an overall certification process takes. That class was a total of 56
hours of my head deep in a book perparing for the exam. 56 hours for a cert
exam (for me anyway) is just getting started.
 
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EggHead
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      07-12-2005
Not all degree are created equal.
Are you telling me you believe that an $TT or Dvry degree is same as a
degree from Caltech b'cos of teach the same stuff and have all the similar
exam Qs?
Sean, did you born yesterday?
Anyway, your college is not bad yet. I hear some college hand out exam Qs
and ans to their student.
However, having a degree, you can be easier to become a pm
Egghead

"Sean" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> My college doesnt have the degree/cert program, wish they did.
>
> GPA does matter, it has in my past life, it has with my friends as well
> and
> Honors societies match you up with jobs that are otherwise not listed.
>
> Granted Loser U (which is what I attend) one must maintain a higher GPA
> then
> others at better colleges and in fact there is even a rating system that
> takes that into effect from what I understand.
>
> If GPA was not important we wouldnt have it becuase its a horrific hassle
> when it comes to adminstration, testing and even learning itself.
>
> If you graduate Summa its a very good thing. Some recuriters will not even
> look at your resume unless you have a 3.0 or better.
>
> As it turns out, if you have two canidates for a junior position and
> neither
> one of them have experience, the academics both college and certs will
> become
> the filtering process for the interview. I personally, also have an
> application I can demo and explain all the details.
>
> Thing is, until tonight, I had no idea the real questions on the exams
> were
> floating around which really sucks becuase I got my MCAD 100% from reading
> and building.
>
> I personally am in very good shape on all fronts including "word of
> mouth".
> I had two internship offers which I wasnt looking for and turned them down
> becuase I wanted to study cert. additionally the dean said he would write
> a
> letter of recomendation.. I should brag so much it could be my
> achillies.
>
> Anyway, back to the orginal point of my post I just basically wanted to
> get
> an idea if people felt these exams were much more intensive then college
> work, they have been for me.
>
> I clock my actual study time. In college I spend more time going to class
> and sitting in class then I actually studying and I learn much better on
> my
> own and with an expert handy to ask questions. Some classes in fact I
> spend
> more time with my writtings then I do actually learning something new.
> With
> certs its intense 100% learning compared to college work. I have only
> taken
> one class were I felt each test covered the same level of actual study
> time
> that an overall certification process takes. That class was a total of 56
> hours of my head deep in a book perparing for the exam. 56 hours for a
> cert
> exam (for me anyway) is just getting started.



 
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JaR
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      07-12-2005
In microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcsd, =?Utf-8?B?U2Vhbg==?= spewed across
the ether:

> My college basically doesnt have a clue what its doing and is not
> teaching students anything. If I was an employer I would hire a
> certified person with no experience before I hired a graduate from my
> college/degree plan with no experience, without question. I am willing
> to bet a vast majority of my co-students would agree with me in fact,
> we talk about it all the time.


You should probable spend more time listening to your profs and less bs'ing
in the coffeeshop. If your co-students agree with you, they are wrong too.
If your college REALLY has that flawed a curriculum, then why are you
continuing to attend? There are other colleges out there that would be
happy to take your tuition money. That aside, I AM an hiring manager and
have been in the workforce for many years. My company's (like many others
with an IT staff) hiring prefs are:

1. Degree, Experienced, Certified
2. Degree, Experienced
3. Experienced, Certified
4. Degree, Inexperienced, Certified
5. Degree, Inexperienced
6. Inexperienced, Certified

And in that exact order. Where will you be when you come banging on my
door?

--
JaR
Thug 10110
MCNGP.com Dept of Employment Counseling
 
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=?Utf-8?B?Q293Ym95IChHcmVnb3J5IEEuIEJlYW1lcikgLSBNVlA=?=
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      07-14-2005
Cert value has been downgraded due to the proliferation of cheat sites. This
does not mean it does not have value.

College is useful, but at the start of your career, college and career will
get you farther than college alone. WIth the former, you have four years of
part time experience along with your college. FOr many, career alone is the
best option to start out and then get college later when you are already
making money. If you go this route, work on some sample apps, even donating
development time to organizations, to get some samples you can show
perspective employers. Find out the types of businesses that are heaviest in
your market and make samples apps that appeal to those types of businesses.

I am not deriding college (have a BA myself), but four years of experience
up front can get you farther than getting an BS degree in computer science.

--
Gregory A. Beamer
MVP; MCP: +I, SE, SD, DBA

***************************
Think Outside the Box!
***************************


"Sean" wrote:

> Not should I get one or the other actually I am getting both, my question is
> a bit different.
>
> I am an IST major and people at my college don’t seem to take certifications
> very seriously. They seem to think its easy stuff although my college
> councilor said that in many cases its more valuable for getting in the door
> then a degree.
> Our program manager said “a certification cant replace an ‘entire’ course”.
> I found that somewhat insulting, at my college one test such as 70-306 would
> be easily 2 courses if not 3. Could it be just my loser college?
>

 
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=?Utf-8?B?U2Vhbg==?=
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      07-21-2005
Creating my own app is basically what I did this summer.
I had the option of either an internship or studying for MCAD and creating
an application for a friend of mines office. I picked the latter.

Namely because I have seen what these guys do for internship....not much.

creating my own application I had the power to take it any direction I
wanted and show my planning skills etc.

I havent cheated (didnt even know one could) on my MCAD and I know there is
no job out there that could teach me as much in the same amount of hours so I
perfered to go that way for now. Next semester I start looking for part time
work.
I did this namely becuase my degree plan is extreemly abstract and doesnt
really tell an employer which direction one is serious about going (ie
networking, developing, training) and having MCAD on the resume instead of me
just saying " I want to do software" I felt was a bit mo better.

"Cowboy (Gregory A. Beamer) - MVP" wrote:

> Cert value has been downgraded due to the proliferation of cheat sites. This
> does not mean it does not have value.
>
> College is useful, but at the start of your career, college and career will
> get you farther than college alone. WIth the former, you have four years of
> part time experience along with your college. FOr many, career alone is the
> best option to start out and then get college later when you are already
> making money. If you go this route, work on some sample apps, even donating
> development time to organizations, to get some samples you can show
> perspective employers. Find out the types of businesses that are heaviest in
> your market and make samples apps that appeal to those types of businesses.
>
> I am not deriding college (have a BA myself), but four years of experience
> up front can get you farther than getting an BS degree in computer science.
>
> --
> Gregory A. Beamer
> MVP; MCP: +I, SE, SD, DBA
>
> ***************************
> Think Outside the Box!
> ***************************
>
>
> "Sean" wrote:
>
> > Not should I get one or the other actually I am getting both, my question is
> > a bit different.
> >
> > I am an IST major and people at my college don’t seem to take certifications
> > very seriously. They seem to think its easy stuff although my college
> > councilor said that in many cases its more valuable for getting in the door
> > then a degree.
> > Our program manager said “a certification cant replace an ‘entire’ course”.
> > I found that somewhat insulting, at my college one test such as 70-306 would
> > be easily 2 courses if not 3. Could it be just my loser college?
> >

 
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