«

Not should I get one or the other actually I am getting both, my question is
a bit different.

I am an IST major and people at my college don’t seem to take certifications
very seriously. They seem to think its easy stuff although my college
councilor said that in many cases its more valuable for getting in the door
then a degree.
Our program manager said “a certification cant replace an ‘entire’ course�.
I found that somewhat insulting, at my college one test such as 70-306 would
be easily 2 courses if not 3. Could it be just my loser college?

I do not know what kind of college you are in now.
However, "in many cases its more valuable for getting in the door then a
degree", What kind of degree does he/she talking prefer to? A degree from
university of Pancake. I believe the truth is that "its" is "exp. in the
field" not the M$ Cert.
Without any exp. in the field or you know no one in the field, cert is only
a piece of paper and almost unless.
Get it straight, cert is only valid if you have exp or at least a dip from
college. I believe no one will hire a programmer who only has M$ cert from
the street in North America now.

Egghead

"Sean" <> wrote in message
news:94C1A7A7-0413-4C1E-940C-...
> Not should I get one or the other actually I am getting both, my question
> is
> a bit different.
>
> I am an IST major and people at my college don¡¦t seem to take
> certifications
> very seriously. They seem to think its easy stuff although my college
> councilor said that in many cases its more valuable for getting in the
> door
> then a degree.
> Our program manager said ¡§a certification cant replace an ¡¥entire¡¦
> course¡¨.
> I found that somewhat insulting, at my college one test such as 70-306
> would
> be easily 2 courses if not 3. Could it be just my loser college?
>

My degree plan in Information Systems Technology and they are supposed to be
teaching me things similar to what could be covered in a cert exam but they
are not. Furthermore, I find cert material much more challengeing the course
work.

Now on the topic of “experience� need I remind you that people who are
talking to college councilors about “the best way to get my foot in the door�
don’t have experience and are specifically asking that question to the
councilor because they are currently seeking methods of getting said
experience. If you have no experience your options are all or some of the
following
1.get certified
2.get a degree
3.find an employer who wil hire you simply becuase you want to learn the
stuff at work.

“experience� is not an option for “getting experience�. I hope before I die
people as a whole will understand the impossibility of the logic “I need
experience to get my foot in the door� which if it is not illogical, it is at
best simply asking for a hand out.



"EggHead" wrote:

> I do not know what kind of college you are in now.
> However, "in many cases its more valuable for getting in the door then a
> degree", What kind of degree does he/she talking prefer to? A degree from
> university of Pancake. I believe the truth is that "its" is "exp. in the
> field" not the M$ Cert.
> Without any exp. in the field or you know no one in the field, cert is only
> a piece of paper and almost unless.
> Get it straight, cert is only valid if you have exp or at least a dip from
> college. I believe no one will hire a programmer who only has M$ cert from
> the street in North America now.
>
> Egghead
>
> "Sean" <> wrote in message
> news:94C1A7A7-0413-4C1E-940C-...
> > Not should I get one or the other actually I am getting both, my question
> > is
> > a bit different.
> >
> > I am an IST major and people at my college don¡¦t seem to take
> > certifications
> > very seriously. They seem to think its easy stuff although my college
> > councilor said that in many cases its more valuable for getting in the
> > door
> > then a degree.
> > Our program manager said ¡§a certification cant replace an ¡¥entire¡¦
> > course¡¨.
> > I found that somewhat insulting, at my college one test such as 70-306
> > would
> > be easily 2 courses if not 3. Could it be just my loser college?
> >
>
>
>

I want to add to what I am replying by making it clear that I personally am
doing both degree and certification for a very specific reason. The reason is
because my college is not teaching me the material I need to know to survive
one day in this industry despite the fact the degree plan is directly
related! Granted this may be my college in particular but I assure you I
would hire a MS certified person with no experience before I ever considered
a person with no experience who has graduated from my college/degree plan
despite the fact the degree plan purports to be teaching these specific
technologies.

I guess my question is this, is my college the exception or the rule?
Because my college is a academic disaster zone when it comes to the IST
degree plan.


"Sean" wrote:

> My degree plan in Information Systems Technology and they are supposed to be
> teaching me things similar to what could be covered in a cert exam but they
> are not. Furthermore, I find cert material much more challengeing the course
> work.
>
> Now on the topic of “experience� need I remind you that people who are
> talking to college councilors about “the best way to get my foot in the door�
> don’t have experience and are specifically asking that question to the
> councilor because they are currently seeking methods of getting said
> experience. If you have no experience your options are all or some of the
> following
> 1.get certified
> 2.get a degree
> 3.find an employer who wil hire you simply becuase you want to learn the
> stuff at work.
>
> “experience� is not an option for “getting experience�. I hope before I die
> people as a whole will understand the impossibility of the logic “I need
> experience to get my foot in the door� which if it is not illogical, it is at
> best simply asking for a hand out.
>
>
>
> "EggHead" wrote:
>
> > I do not know what kind of college you are in now.
> > However, "in many cases its more valuable for getting in the door then a
> > degree", What kind of degree does he/she talking prefer to? A degree from
> > university of Pancake. I believe the truth is that "its" is "exp. in the
> > field" not the M$ Cert.
> > Without any exp. in the field or you know no one in the field, cert is only
> > a piece of paper and almost unless.
> > Get it straight, cert is only valid if you have exp or at least a dip from
> > college. I believe no one will hire a programmer who only has M$ cert from
> > the street in North America now.
> >
> > Egghead
> >
> > "Sean" <> wrote in message
> > news:94C1A7A7-0413-4C1E-940C-...
> > > Not should I get one or the other actually I am getting both, my question
> > > is
> > > a bit different.
> > >
> > > I am an IST major and people at my college don¡¦t seem to take
> > > certifications
> > > very seriously. They seem to think its easy stuff although my college
> > > councilor said that in many cases its more valuable for getting in the
> > > door
> > > then a degree.
> > > Our program manager said ¡§a certification cant replace an ¡¥entire¡¦
> > > course¡¨.
> > > I found that somewhat insulting, at my college one test such as 70-306
> > > would
> > > be easily 2 courses if not 3. Could it be just my loser college?
> > >
> >
> >
> >

Sean, something wrong here,
Do u mean MCSE? I think IST is for MCSE stuffs, not MCSD stuffs.
May be you are in the wrong Major after all.
You are the first one to tell me that cert materials are more challenging
than a degree courses works, do you complete your last yr courses yet?
Anyway, I also have a degree in CS and few certs as well. However, I find
out that a degree is still the best way to get the foot in the door without
any exp (Of course, it is given that it is not an university of Pancakes
degree). It is bcos it looks good on your resume, and you must do some
computer related course works in that 4yrs.
"Exp in the field" does not mean that you are working as a PAID developer or
a PAID sys admin. There are a lot of ways to get exp in the field. In our
CS, we need to involve in 3 CS related projects with some companies before
we can go to our final yr, and we must spend at least 150 hrs in each
project. Also, before we can let go, we need to involve in a CS related
project that we spend at least 450hrs in it. Therefore, we can build up some
exp and have a nice CVS. A lot of my classmates have job offer from those
companies or other companies that have similar project. If your college does
not offer that, I believe your can do some volunteer work for your local
church as well.
I understand that it feels angry when looking for work, especially after 4
yrs of hard work in college. On the other hand, you must understand without
exp. It is a really hard sell to any employer. How can they know you can do
the work?
OK, I run into some jobs that degree and exp are not really a req. However,
you need to write their in-house exam. The exam is not all in MC format, and
at least half of the exam is hand-on programming.
Now, I really want to know which college you are in?
I mean there is no way an accredited college in North America can be that
bad.
Egghead

"Sean" <> wrote in message
news:020D1BA9-DBCC-4731-9C88-...
> My degree plan in Information Systems Technology and they are supposed to
be
> teaching me things similar to what could be covered in a cert exam but
they
> are not. Furthermore, I find cert material much more challengeing the
course
> work.
>
> Now on the topic of ¡§experience¡¨ need I remind you that people who are
> talking to college councilors about ¡§the best way to get my foot in the
door¡¨
> don¡¦t have experience and are specifically asking that question to the
> councilor because they are currently seeking methods of getting said
> experience. If you have no experience your options are all or some of the
> following
> 1.get certified
> 2.get a degree
> 3.find an employer who wil hire you simply becuase you want to learn the
> stuff at work.
>
> ¡§experience¡¨ is not an option for ¡§getting experience¡¨. I hope before
I die
> people as a whole will understand the impossibility of the logic ¡§I need
> experience to get my foot in the door¡¨ which if it is not illogical, it
is at
> best simply asking for a hand out.
>
>
>
> "EggHead" wrote:
>
> > I do not know what kind of college you are in now.
> > However, "in many cases its more valuable for getting in the door then a
> > degree", What kind of degree does he/she talking prefer to? A degree
from
> > university of Pancake. I believe the truth is that "its" is "exp. in the
> > field" not the M$ Cert.
> > Without any exp. in the field or you know no one in the field, cert is
only
> > a piece of paper and almost unless.
> > Get it straight, cert is only valid if you have exp or at least a dip
from
> > college. I believe no one will hire a programmer who only has M$ cert
from
> > the street in North America now.
> >
> > Egghead
> >
> > "Sean" <> wrote in message
> > news:94C1A7A7-0413-4C1E-940C-...
> > > Not should I get one or the other actually I am getting both, my
question
> > > is
> > > a bit different.
> > >
> > > I am an IST major and people at my college don!|t seem to take
> > > certifications
> > > very seriously. They seem to think its easy stuff although my college
> > > councilor said that in many cases its more valuable for getting in the
> > > door
> > > then a degree.
> > > Our program manager said !¡±a certification cant replace an !¢D
entire!|
> > > course!¡L.
> > > I found that somewhat insulting, at my college one test such as 70-306
> > > would
> > > be easily 2 courses if not 3. Could it be just my loser college?
> > >
> >
> >
> >

What do they teach you in IST now?
Do they teach you how to defend a network when it is under attack? Or, how
to write a virus or trojan horse? Or the methodology in designing an IS?
That is new to me, I never know a degree plan can be a vendor-specific. In
our school, we learn not only M$ tech, but also other tech as well. It is
like telling me that a BBA only learn one depreciation method.
Egghead
"Sean" <> wrote in message
newsB9DBA92-9A1C-4717-AF1E-...
> I want to add to what I am replying by making it clear that I personally
am
> doing both degree and certification for a very specific reason. The reason
is
> because my college is not teaching me the material I need to know to
survive
> one day in this industry despite the fact the degree plan is directly
> related! Granted this may be my college in particular but I assure you I
> would hire a MS certified person with no experience before I ever
considered
> a person with no experience who has graduated from my college/degree plan
> despite the fact the degree plan purports to be teaching these specific
> technologies.
>
> I guess my question is this, is my college the exception or the rule?
> Because my college is a academic disaster zone when it comes to the IST
> degree plan.
>
>
> "Sean" wrote:
>
> > My degree plan in Information Systems Technology and they are supposed
to be
> > teaching me things similar to what could be covered in a cert exam but
they
> > are not. Furthermore, I find cert material much more challengeing the
course
> > work.
> >
> > Now on the topic of ¡§experience¡¨ need I remind you that people who are
> > talking to college councilors about ¡§the best way to get my foot in the
door¡¨
> > don¡¦t have experience and are specifically asking that question to the
> > councilor because they are currently seeking methods of getting said
> > experience. If you have no experience your options are all or some of
the
> > following
> > 1.get certified
> > 2.get a degree
> > 3.find an employer who wil hire you simply becuase you want to learn the
> > stuff at work.
> >
> > ¡§experience¡¨ is not an option for ¡§getting experience¡¨. I hope
before I die
> > people as a whole will understand the impossibility of the logic ¡§I
need
> > experience to get my foot in the door¡¨ which if it is not illogical, it
is at
> > best simply asking for a hand out.
> >
> >
> >
> > "EggHead" wrote:
> >
> > > I do not know what kind of college you are in now.
> > > However, "in many cases its more valuable for getting in the door then
a
> > > degree", What kind of degree does he/she talking prefer to? A degree
from
> > > university of Pancake. I believe the truth is that "its" is "exp. in
the
> > > field" not the M$ Cert.
> > > Without any exp. in the field or you know no one in the field, cert is
only
> > > a piece of paper and almost unless.
> > > Get it straight, cert is only valid if you have exp or at least a dip
from
> > > college. I believe no one will hire a programmer who only has M$ cert
from
> > > the street in North America now.
> > >
> > > Egghead
> > >
> > > "Sean" <> wrote in message
> > > news:94C1A7A7-0413-4C1E-940C-...
> > > > Not should I get one or the other actually I am getting both, my
question
> > > > is
> > > > a bit different.
> > > >
> > > > I am an IST major and people at my college don!|t seem to take
> > > > certifications
> > > > very seriously. They seem to think its easy stuff although my
college
> > > > councilor said that in many cases its more valuable for getting in
the
> > > > door
> > > > then a degree.
> > > > Our program manager said !¡±a certification cant replace an !¢D
entire!|
> > > > course!¡L.
> > > > I found that somewhat insulting, at my college one test such as
70-306
> > > > would
> > > > be easily 2 courses if not 3. Could it be just my loser college?
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >

Sean,

Your best bet as a college student is to get an internship. Plenty if IT
companies hire interns for summer work. They know you will not be fully
up-to-speed, and may only contribute minimally. However, you get paid a
little / get some experience, and they get to market their company to you as
a possibility for when you graduated. I had internships from my Sophomore
year on while I was in school. One with a major insurance company (that was
the one that seemed to be more of a marketing deal for the company), the
other with a local engineering firm. The engineering firm was the one that I
learned the most from. Small IT department, plenty to do and learn.

I concur with Sir Egghead though, certifications are for experienced
professionals. Once you've gotten in the door and have some experience, then
consider what certifications will do for you. Your college degree is to
teach you the basic concepts of IT that you will be able to reuse
(hopefully) for a long time to come, even as new technologies come out.

What year are you? What college are you at?

Mark


"Sean" <> wrote in message
news:020D1BA9-DBCC-4731-9C88-...
> My degree plan in Information Systems Technology and they are supposed to
be
> teaching me things similar to what could be covered in a cert exam but
they
> are not. Furthermore, I find cert material much more challengeing the
course
> work.
>
> Now on the topic of "experience" need I remind you that people who are
> talking to college councilors about "the best way to get my foot in the
door"
> don't have experience and are specifically asking that question to the
> councilor because they are currently seeking methods of getting said
> experience. If you have no experience your options are all or some of the
> following
> 1.get certified
> 2.get a degree
> 3.find an employer who wil hire you simply becuase you want to learn the
> stuff at work.
>
> "experience" is not an option for "getting experience". I hope before I
die
> people as a whole will understand the impossibility of the logic "I need
> experience to get my foot in the door" which if it is not illogical, it is
at
> best simply asking for a hand out.
>
>
>
> "EggHead" wrote:
>
> > I do not know what kind of college you are in now.
> > However, "in many cases its more valuable for getting in the door then a
> > degree", What kind of degree does he/she talking prefer to? A degree
from
> > university of Pancake. I believe the truth is that "its" is "exp. in the
> > field" not the M$ Cert.
> > Without any exp. in the field or you know no one in the field, cert is
only
> > a piece of paper and almost unless.
> > Get it straight, cert is only valid if you have exp or at least a dip
from
> > college. I believe no one will hire a programmer who only has M$ cert
from
> > the street in North America now.
> >
> > Egghead
> >
> > "Sean" <> wrote in message
> > news:94C1A7A7-0413-4C1E-940C-...
> > > Not should I get one or the other actually I am getting both, my
question
> > > is
> > > a bit different.
> > >
> > > I am an IST major and people at my college don¡¦t seem to take
> > > certifications
> > > very seriously. They seem to think its easy stuff although my college
> > > councilor said that in many cases its more valuable for getting in the
> > > door
> > > then a degree.
> > > Our program manager said ¡§a certification cant replace an ¡¥entire¡¦
> > > course¡¨.
> > > I found that somewhat insulting, at my college one test such as 70-306
> > > would
> > > be easily 2 courses if not 3. Could it be just my loser college?
> > >
> >
> >
> >

Well this continues to divert from what I was asking and I thought I made it
clear I was not asking which one a person should get. I was strictly asking
about the volume of material itself and the difficultly of it. But since we
are going down that road let me try to make it as clear and simple as I can.

Students in my IT degree plan will be lucky to even know what ADO is before
they graduate, let alone what it does. We will not cover web services, .net
remoting, or serviced components (and I am 1000% positive on remoting and
serviced components, those words will not even be mentioned in 4 years)

I don’t know about other degree plans but at least for mine the concept that
my IT degree plan prepares you for anything other then how to write words on
paper is hysterical to me.

I already have one degree and worked in a similar industry for 13 years of
which was close to developers who I interacted from time to time and I can
assure you that at least my IT degree plan doesn’t even come into the same
general ballpark as MCAD or MCSD.

I am not askin how to get into the business. I think my 3.95 GPA and MCAD
soon to be MCSD certification will be fine.

My degree plan teaches even LESS on MCSE type material then it does MCAD
material.
Again I stress, this could simply be my college this degree plan suggests
network Admin but only has two classes regarding networking. There is another
degree plan called computer engineering which is 100% hardware and only has
one programing class but my college says its for "software engineering".

My college basically doesnt have a clue what its doing and is not teaching
students anything. If I was an employer I would hire a certified person with
no experience before I hired a graduate from my college/degree plan with no
experience, without question. I am willing to bet a vast majority of my
co-students would agree with me in fact, we talk about it all the time.

"Egghead" wrote:

> Sean, something wrong here,
> Do u mean MCSE? I think IST is for MCSE stuffs, not MCSD stuffs.
> May be you are in the wrong Major after all.
> You are the first one to tell me that cert materials are more challenging
> than a degree courses works, do you complete your last yr courses yet?
> Anyway, I also have a degree in CS and few certs as well. However, I find
> out that a degree is still the best way to get the foot in the door without
> any exp (Of course, it is given that it is not an university of Pancakes
> degree). It is bcos it looks good on your resume, and you must do some
> computer related course works in that 4yrs.
> "Exp in the field" does not mean that you are working as a PAID developer or
> a PAID sys admin. There are a lot of ways to get exp in the field. In our
> CS, we need to involve in 3 CS related projects with some companies before
> we can go to our final yr, and we must spend at least 150 hrs in each
> project. Also, before we can let go, we need to involve in a CS related
> project that we spend at least 450hrs in it. Therefore, we can build up some
> exp and have a nice CVS. A lot of my classmates have job offer from those
> companies or other companies that have similar project. If your college does
> not offer that, I believe your can do some volunteer work for your local
> church as well.
> I understand that it feels angry when looking for work, especially after 4
> yrs of hard work in college. On the other hand, you must understand without
> exp. It is a really hard sell to any employer. How can they know you can do
> the work?
> OK, I run into some jobs that degree and exp are not really a req. However,
> you need to write their in-house exam. The exam is not all in MC format, and
> at least half of the exam is hand-on programming.
> Now, I really want to know which college you are in?
> I mean there is no way an accredited college in North America can be that
> bad.
> Egghead
>
> "Sean" <> wrote in message
> news:020D1BA9-DBCC-4731-9C88-...
> > My degree plan in Information Systems Technology and they are supposed to
> be
> > teaching me things similar to what could be covered in a cert exam but
> they
> > are not. Furthermore, I find cert material much more challengeing the
> course
> > work.
> >
> > Now on the topic of ¡§experience¡¨ need I remind you that people who are
> > talking to college councilors about ¡§the best way to get my foot in the
> door¡¨
> > don¡¦t have experience and are specifically asking that question to the
> > councilor because they are currently seeking methods of getting said
> > experience. If you have no experience your options are all or some of the
> > following
> > 1.get certified
> > 2.get a degree
> > 3.find an employer who wil hire you simply becuase you want to learn the
> > stuff at work.
> >
> > ¡§experience¡¨ is not an option for ¡§getting experience¡¨. I hope before
> I die
> > people as a whole will understand the impossibility of the logic ¡§I need
> > experience to get my foot in the door¡¨ which if it is not illogical, it
> is at
> > best simply asking for a hand out.
> >
> >
> >
> > "EggHead" wrote:
> >
> > > I do not know what kind of college you are in now.
> > > However, "in many cases its more valuable for getting in the door then a
> > > degree", What kind of degree does he/she talking prefer to? A degree
> from
> > > university of Pancake. I believe the truth is that "its" is "exp. in the
> > > field" not the M$ Cert.
> > > Without any exp. in the field or you know no one in the field, cert is
> only
> > > a piece of paper and almost unless.
> > > Get it straight, cert is only valid if you have exp or at least a dip
> from
> > > college. I believe no one will hire a programmer who only has M$ cert
> from
> > > the street in North America now.
> > >
> > > Egghead
> > >
> > > "Sean" <> wrote in message
> > > news:94C1A7A7-0413-4C1E-940C-...
> > > > Not should I get one or the other actually I am getting both, my
> question
> > > > is
> > > > a bit different.
> > > >
> > > > I am an IST major and people at my college don!|t seem to take
> > > > certifications
> > > > very seriously. They seem to think its easy stuff although my college
> > > > councilor said that in many cases its more valuable for getting in the
> > > > door
> > > > then a degree.
> > > > Our program manager said !¡±a certification cant replace an !¢D
> entire!|
> > > > course!¡L.
> > > > I found that somewhat insulting, at my college one test such as 70-306
> > > > would
> > > > be easily 2 courses if not 3. Could it be just my loser college?
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>

Position = debugger for .Net

Candidate A
1.no experience
2.college degree
3.no clue what tracing, logs or anything else regarding debug for that matter

Canidate B
1.no experience
2.college degree
3.MCAD

Which one do you pick at the same rate. It boils down to the basics here,
the first day at work you have to choice of teaching someone the basics of
debugging before explaining your companies standards and tools or you can
just jump to your companies standards and tools and skip all the debugging
basics.

The answer to this question could be any easier in my mind.