Is MCSD worth doing?

Does it increase your chances of getting a job in the IT sector?
Do companies hire developers who have done MCSD but do not have a CS degree?
Is it better to use C# than VB.NET for the exams?

Any help/guidance will be appreciated.

=?Utf-8?B?YmVl?=

"Doing" a MCSD will not help you land a job; unless the MCSD in question is
in a position to hire you.

Seriously, companies want people who are well rounded; who have experience
with the client's industry and / or strong analytical skills and a
professional vocabulary to compliment their technical knowledge. If you are
in your teens or early twenties and have the opportunity, then go for the
degree. Most people your age are probably flipping burgers or doing low
level tech support stuff, so postponing your 8x5 career won't cause you to
miss out on much. Sure, you may be happy and content hacking out source code
now, but in 10 years your interests will change. However, many companies put
a glass ceiling on employees who don't have at least the equivalent of a 4
year degree. Once you're married and have kids, it will be very hard to go
back and get the degree then.

WKidd

"bee" <> wrote in message
news:92218F65-998F-4089-843F-...
> Does it increase your chances of getting a job in the IT sector?
> Do companies hire developers who have done MCSD but do not have a CS
degree?
> Is it better to use C# than VB.NET for the exams?
>
> Any help/guidance will be appreciated.

>Does it increase your chances of getting a job in the IT sector?

it won't do you any harm, and if your company pays for it who cares
anyway!

Whether it increases your chances of getting another job, well that
really depends. I partly work in the financial arena, although more
lately in the manufacturing sector, I've never seen a demand for
microsoft certs either back home or here in the uk. What counts is the
amount of [technical and more importantly business] knowledge and
experience you can bring to a company.

>Do companies hire developers who have done MCSD but do not have a CS degree?

Obtaining a degree especially a higher level degree is the best, and
often only way, to make a start in a chosen career (any career, not
just IT) path. People need to remember that when applying for a role.
you need to get your résumé to the top of the pile, ahead of all the
rest - hr bots don't understand words like desire and hunger

In any case fewer and fewer companies are looking to take on entry
level staff who have no real world experience. There are thousands of
IT grads who have not been able to get that first job on the IT career
ladder, many of which have simply gone into other professions.

So, IMHO any cert without experience is a waste of money (unless
you're not paying the costs). A cert without experience or a degree is
completely meaningless; i can't see too many companies now (or even in
the past) prepared to take you on simply by having a cert or two. If
you know a buddy who work's in IT, see if they can put it good word or
two, but don't hold your breath.

If you truly desire a career in IT, my advice would be to get back
into college and get educated in the process of software development,
which is far more complicated than any ms cert would have you believe.

>Is it better to use C# than VB.NET for the exams?

makes no difference. Too many people think the choice of programming
language is the must important part of any software development
process, which just goes to show how clueless many people are when it
comes to developing software.


Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3

The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere

>Most people your age are probably flipping burgers

ummmm burgers......

Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3

The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere

> Obtaining a degree especially a higher level degree is the best, and
> often only way, to make a start in a chosen career (any career, not
> just IT) path.

I took the MCSD exams and passed them now. In preparing the exams, I seem to
have a good understand of how I should use the MS technologies. With the
preparation on 70-300, I seem to have an understanding on the basics of the
object oriented design. My question to you is, what kind of great things
you can learn from a university or graduate school that you cannot learn by
preparing the exams? I don't have a CS degree and I honestly don't know. I
imagine you learn subjects for which computer is a great aid (maths,
statistics, etc.) and you learn non-MS technologies. If you have good
examples on this, can you let me know?

TomTom


"The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere" <.> wrote in message
news:...
> >Does it increase your chances of getting a job in the IT sector?
>
> it won't do you any harm, and if your company pays for it who cares
> anyway!
>
> Whether it increases your chances of getting another job, well that
> really depends. I partly work in the financial arena, although more
> lately in the manufacturing sector, I've never seen a demand for
> microsoft certs either back home or here in the uk. What counts is the
> amount of [technical and more importantly business] knowledge and
> experience you can bring to a company.
>
>>Do companies hire developers who have done MCSD but do not have a CS
>>degree?
>
> Obtaining a degree especially a higher level degree is the best, and
> often only way, to make a start in a chosen career (any career, not
> just IT) path. People need to remember that when applying for a role.
> you need to get your résumé to the top of the pile, ahead of all the
> rest - hr bots don't understand words like desire and hunger
>
> In any case fewer and fewer companies are looking to take on entry
> level staff who have no real world experience. There are thousands of
> IT grads who have not been able to get that first job on the IT career
> ladder, many of which have simply gone into other professions.
>
> So, IMHO any cert without experience is a waste of money (unless
> you're not paying the costs). A cert without experience or a degree is
> completely meaningless; i can't see too many companies now (or even in
> the past) prepared to take you on simply by having a cert or two. If
> you know a buddy who work's in IT, see if they can put it good word or
> two, but don't hold your breath.
>
> If you truly desire a career in IT, my advice would be to get back
> into college and get educated in the process of software development,
> which is far more complicated than any ms cert would have you believe.
>
>>Is it better to use C# than VB.NET for the exams?
>
> makes no difference. Too many people think the choice of programming
> language is the must important part of any software development
> process, which just goes to show how clueless many people are when it
> comes to developing software.
>
>
> Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3

TomTom

Getting a degree outside of what the professional world looks for is really a
waste of time and money. In fact, I have had some teachers that impeded my
education because said teacher never bothered to read the material and was
giving false information. Everything known to man is written in books we
don’t need college to teach us to read. But, alas, the world of work expects
degrees.

And finally, I read a survey in some online magazine by MS which broke down
all the stats for certified people. Ironically, the biggest earners for this
certification did not have a computer related degree.

I have found in my life that the best way to get a job without question is
to go to the right church or golf course. That is why I am currently
unemployed
"TomTom" wrote:

> > Obtaining a degree especially a higher level degree is the best, and
> > often only way, to make a start in a chosen career (any career, not
> > just IT) path.
>
> I took the MCSD exams and passed them now. In preparing the exams, I seem to
> have a good understand of how I should use the MS technologies. With the
> preparation on 70-300, I seem to have an understanding on the basics of the
> object oriented design. My question to you is, what kind of great things
> you can learn from a university or graduate school that you cannot learn by
> preparing the exams? I don't have a CS degree and I honestly don't know. I
> imagine you learn subjects for which computer is a great aid (maths,
> statistics, etc.) and you learn non-MS technologies. If you have good
> examples on this, can you let me know?
>
> TomTom
>
>
> "The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere" <.> wrote in message
> news:...
> > >Does it increase your chances of getting a job in the IT sector?
> >
> > it won't do you any harm, and if your company pays for it who cares
> > anyway!
> >
> > Whether it increases your chances of getting another job, well that
> > really depends. I partly work in the financial arena, although more
> > lately in the manufacturing sector, I've never seen a demand for
> > microsoft certs either back home or here in the uk. What counts is the
> > amount of [technical and more importantly business] knowledge and
> > experience you can bring to a company.
> >
> >>Do companies hire developers who have done MCSD but do not have a CS
> >>degree?
> >
> > Obtaining a degree especially a higher level degree is the best, and
> > often only way, to make a start in a chosen career (any career, not
> > just IT) path. People need to remember that when applying for a role.
> > you need to get your résumé to the top of the pile, ahead of all the
> > rest - hr bots don't understand words like desire and hunger
> >
> > In any case fewer and fewer companies are looking to take on entry
> > level staff who have no real world experience. There are thousands of
> > IT grads who have not been able to get that first job on the IT career
> > ladder, many of which have simply gone into other professions.
> >
> > So, IMHO any cert without experience is a waste of money (unless
> > you're not paying the costs). A cert without experience or a degree is
> > completely meaningless; i can't see too many companies now (or even in
> > the past) prepared to take you on simply by having a cert or two. If
> > you know a buddy who work's in IT, see if they can put it good word or
> > two, but don't hold your breath.
> >
> > If you truly desire a career in IT, my advice would be to get back
> > into college and get educated in the process of software development,
> > which is far more complicated than any ms cert would have you believe.
> >
> >>Is it better to use C# than VB.NET for the exams?
> >
> > makes no difference. Too many people think the choice of programming
> > language is the must important part of any software development
> > process, which just goes to show how clueless many people are when it
> > comes to developing software.
> >
> >
> > Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
>
>
>

=?Utf-8?B?U2Vhbg==?=

>Getting a degree outside of what the professional world looks for is really a
>waste of time and money.

yup, who wants a sociology degree these days!

> In fact, I have had some teachers that impeded my
>education because said teacher never bothered to read the material and was
>giving false information.

yup, there are bad teachers and lecturers just as there are bad IT
professions, just that in education there are far less of them.

> Everything known to man is written in books we
>don’t need college to teach us to read.

reading books and understanding the content and the subject matter are
two totally separate things; reading a book or two does not
necessarily equate to knowledge. If you had embarked on a degree,
especially a higher level degree, you would understand this.

>But, alas, the world of work expects
>degrees.

no, the world expects experience, no matter what the profession is.
Degree's and the like of in IT, only serve a purpose for the first few
roles while you are gaining the real world experience that companies
desire.

>And finally, I read a survey in some online magazine by MS which broke down
>all the stats for certified people.
> Ironically, the biggest earners for this
>certification did not have a computer related degree.

Any fool can (and does) program a computer these days. The tools
around today have almost made programming an unskilled role, which is
why you don't see too many roles for 'programmers'. What is important
are the stages in the process which occur before a 'programmer' enters
the first line of code.

The purpose of software, despite what the software vendors would have
you believe, is to support the business, to help it compete better in
it's market place. In order to do so, a company needs business
professionals who understand the nature of their core (and subsidiary)
businesses and the world it operates in. Naturally some of these
people require a first rate understanding of how to develop software.

Many IT 'professionals' today come from other backgrounds such as
banking, insurance, accounting, manufacturing, etc,etc, many of which
will have a degree (or two), while a few others will not. In addition,
many will hold industry recognized professional qualifications gained
before they made the switch to IT. These type of people are so
important. because good systems engineering is vital for any business
whether or not the solution will be implemented using software. As
always, these are the roles in demand.

But the point remains, without experience (both business and
technical) or a first rate education, it is unlikely a somebody,
despite how 'keen' they are will get into the profession.

If you don't believe this, then tell the people who have no experience
and a second rate education to apply for an IT role with microsoft
corporation and see how far they get.

>I have found in my life that the best way to get a job without question is
>to go to the right church or golf course.

Amen bother.

Interaction with others is vital to get one noticed in life. In IT
user groups, conventions, seminars, etc are a way to get noticed. But
you need to get noticed and not just sit there on your a$$. So by
getting involved, being prepared to speak, prepare presentations etc
will help you get noticed. My wife operates as a freelance IT
(financial) business consultant, this was exactly what she did nearly
twenty years ago to get her started on her own and now works for
companies both side of the Atlantic.

> That is why I am currently
>unemployed

Which is down to what and who? There are many reasons why people are
unemployed such as refusing to relocate, refusing to retrain, having
the wrong work ethics, not having the necessary business knowledge in
deemed at the time, or simply being no good at their job! There are
many other reasons too.

Would being unemployed be any different for some without ten years
experience and/or an Msc or PHd? Who knows.....

One thing is for sure there a plenty of jobs out there for
'experienced professionals', but I do mean 'experienced
professionals'. And these roles may not be on the same block as where
everyone lives.

Anyway, good luck.

Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3

The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere

>> Obtaining a degree especially a higher level degree is the best, and
>> often only way, to make a start in a chosen career (any career, not
>> just IT) path.
>
>I took the MCSD exams and passed them now. In preparing the exams, I seem to
>have a good understand of how I should use the MS technologies.

which is as far as microsoft are concerned, is the point of the exams.

> With the
>preparation on 70-300, I seem to have an understanding on the basics of the
>object oriented design.

70-300 covered the 'very' basics of software development. I sure in
your everyday work you find the challenges more stimulating than those
encountered in 70-300.

> My question to you is, what kind of great things
>you can learn from a university or graduate school that you cannot learn by
>preparing the exams?

oh dear.

Well for a start the subject is more vast and varied, which is more
relevant to the industry as a whole. Software is about solving
business problems NOT buzzwords.

One example you have already answered for yourself 'MS technologies'.
This would count for little in a non microsoft environment, and
believe me there are plenty of corporations out there who are not.
Vendor exams promote the vendors products, nothing more.

In any case the requirements covered in the exams do not reflect the
real world. If you believe 70-300 represents the real world, you are
very much mistaken. Software engineering a vast subject, people have
written books on the subject which good as they are, often barely
touch the surface. Where in the ms exams do you encounter at any level
which requires even the most basic of explanations for the role of,
and how to conduct the process of, project management, risk analysis,
configuration management, outsoursing, estimating (resources, time &
materials), verification & validation, professional issues, contract
management. Not to mention the various methods and processes, which if
you believe the msf is the correct framework for every problem, again
you are very much mistaken.

The ms (and some other vendor) exams are trivial. Answering a question
does not prove an understanding of the question. Nowhere do you have
to explain and/or describe how you arrived at the answer or even write
anything (which makes me laugh when people state they are about to
'write' 76-543). Often all that was achieved was selecting the correct
answer from a list which actually included the answer - ridicules. In
addition, many people do pass these 'exams' simply by memorizing the
answers from practice tests and from brain dumps - little learning or
understanding gained here. I wonder how many people could write an
original 20,000 word dissertation/thesis on the msf, the dot net
framework or the J2EE?

In addition, I can guarantee you will get laid far more at college and
university than you will while 'studying' for the ms exams, and no
your sister don't count

> I don't have a CS degree and I honestly don't know. I
>imagine you learn subjects for which computer is a great aid (maths,
>statistics, etc.) and you learn non-MS technologies.

No, I never learnt any vendor 'technologies', and today (as always)
computers are just a tool for me to use.

Learning and using (and not using) new 'technologies' is part and
parcel of the profession. Nothing has change in this respect in the
twenty plus years I've been in this game. However there are more
'technologies' to choose from which means more to reject.

Once again you choose to include 'MS' in your argument, so I'll point
out that domain and specification modeling should have no concern for
the underlying technologies to be used, yet these are the most
important stages. Only during design and implementation should the
choice of 'technologies' be of any concern. One of the funniest things
I ever herd was from a so called IT director, who once said 'We cannot
start the project because VB 6 has not been released yet'! Still,
after he was 'released', he found a more financially rewarding career
selling real estate.

> If you have good
>examples on this, can you let me know?

Well apart from what I've just mentioned here, you only have to look
at what employers require for entry level (first role) IT positions.
If you see entry level positions on monster, job serve, the labor
exchange, etc which require no educational qualifications, please let
the people here know.

If you feel this is inaccurate then help all those looking for a
career in IT find there way forward, as you have done. Maybe tell them
about the company which first hired you into the IT profession and how
you have progressed to date. People without degrees have done so
before, they will do so now and in the future, but many, many more
have failed and will fail in the future.

Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3

The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere

It's always interesting to read your comments. My comments inline.

"The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere" <.> wrote in message
news:...
>>> Obtaining a degree especially a higher level degree is the best, and
>>> often only way, to make a start in a chosen career (any career, not
>>> just IT) path.
>>
>>I took the MCSD exams and passed them now. In preparing the exams, I seem
>>to
>>have a good understand of how I should use the MS technologies.
>
> which is as far as microsoft are concerned, is the point of the exams.
>

People should have correct expectation from the certification if they don't
have it now.


>> With the
>>preparation on 70-300, I seem to have an understanding on the basics of
>>the
>>object oriented design.
>
> 70-300 covered the 'very' basics of software development. I sure in
> your everyday work you find the challenges more stimulating than those
> encountered in 70-300.
>

Is it true that many programmers cannot explain OOP even in the very basic
level? 70-300 will prove that you have the very basics then, if the person
did not cheat, which is the big problem.

>> My question to you is, what kind of great things
>>you can learn from a university or graduate school that you cannot learn
>>by
>>preparing the exams?
>
> oh dear.
>
> Well for a start the subject is more vast and varied, which is more
> relevant to the industry as a whole. Software is about solving
> business problems NOT buzzwords.
>
> One example you have already answered for yourself 'MS technologies'.
> This would count for little in a non microsoft environment, and
> believe me there are plenty of corporations out there who are not.
> Vendor exams promote the vendors products, nothing more.
>

Isnt' being able to use the MS technologies important still? I agree that
anybody can program with the RAD tools and the programs created will help to
solve the business problems. They may not be as sophisticated as the
programs created by the first-rate programmer, but there are many situations
that they'll do the job fine. Because of the wide use of Windows platform,
many companies probably want to know if the job candidates know how to
program using MS technologies.

By the way, before .NET came out, I tried Java Servlet and JSP using Forte
for Java. At that time, I thought that the tool is reasonably easy to use
but once I began using VS.NET, I cannot go back to Forte. The productivity
dramatically increased in my case. The difficulty may be due to Forte at
that time though.

> In any case the requirements covered in the exams do not reflect the
> real world. If you believe 70-300 represents the real world, you are
> very much mistaken. Software engineering a vast subject, people have
> written books on the subject which good as they are, often barely
> touch the surface. Where in the ms exams do you encounter at any level
> which requires even the most basic of explanations for the role of,
> and how to conduct the process of, project management, risk analysis,
> configuration management, outsoursing, estimating (resources, time &
> materials), verification & validation, professional issues, contract
> management. Not to mention the various methods and processes, which if
> you believe the msf is the correct framework for every problem, again
> you are very much mistaken.
>

But can the CS department of the universities educate you on the subjects
you mentinoed above? They have different department and I believe you need
to learn in those department. There are different certifications for those
subjects.

> The ms (and some other vendor) exams are trivial. Answering a question
> does not prove an understanding of the question. Nowhere do you have
> to explain and/or describe how you arrived at the answer or even write
> anything (which makes me laugh when people state they are about to
> 'write' 76-543). Often all that was achieved was selecting the correct
> answer from a list which actually included the answer - ridicules. In
> addition, many people do pass these 'exams' simply by memorizing the
> answers from practice tests and from brain dumps - little learning or
> understanding gained here. I wonder how many people could write an
> original 20,000 word dissertation/thesis on the msf, the dot net
> framework or the J2EE?
>

If you know how to use the MS technologies well, the questions are trivial,
I am sure. In my case, the questions were not easy when I began to prepare
for the exams especially because there are subjects that I don't usually
work on. I needed to learn those from little knowledge.


> In addition, I can guarantee you will get laid far more at college and
> university than you will while 'studying' for the ms exams, and no
> your sister don't count
>

>> I don't have a CS degree and I honestly don't know. I
>>imagine you learn subjects for which computer is a great aid (maths,
>>statistics, etc.) and you learn non-MS technologies.
>
> No, I never learnt any vendor 'technologies', and today (as always)
> computers are just a tool for me to use.
>
> Learning and using (and not using) new 'technologies' is part and
> parcel of the profession. Nothing has change in this respect in the
> twenty plus years I've been in this game. However there are more
> 'technologies' to choose from which means more to reject.
>
> Once again you choose to include 'MS' in your argument, so I'll point
> out that domain and specification modeling should have no concern for
> the underlying technologies to be used, yet these are the most
> important stages. Only during design and implementation should the
> choice of 'technologies' be of any concern. One of the funniest things
> I ever herd was from a so called IT director, who once said 'We cannot
> start the project because VB 6 has not been released yet'! Still,
> after he was 'released', he found a more financially rewarding career
> selling real estate.

This is interesting because I can understand your point after I study for
70-300.

>
>> If you have good
>>examples on this, can you let me know?
>
> Well apart from what I've just mentioned here, you only have to look
> at what employers require for entry level (first role) IT positions.
> If you see entry level positions on monster, job serve, the labor
> exchange, etc which require no educational qualifications, please let
> the people here know.
>

My guess is that employers can gather good job candidates by including the
educational requirements for the entry-level positions. They might be
assuming that people who apply for the entry-level positions do not have
experiences, thus educational requirements.


> If you feel this is inaccurate then help all those looking for a
> career in IT find there way forward, as you have done. Maybe tell them
> about the company which first hired you into the IT profession and how
> you have progressed to date. People without degrees have done so
> before, they will do so now and in the future, but many, many more
> have failed and will fail in the future.

I once worked for a manager who really cared about the lack of my CS degree.
Employers that focus too much on degrees or certifications are probably not
good employers. However I understand that with no degree and no
certifications, the employers probably don't have time to asses the skill of
the candidates. If a person wants to work in IT and has no degree, I think
getting certifications is a good start because it increases his/her
possibility of getting a job. I work on IT, but I do not write code for
released software. I work on international stuff and write tools for
improving the process. There probably are more job disciplines that require
programming knowledge and skill but does not require programming for the
released products. These areas might have more lenient educational
requirements, but might require you to have other special knowledge.


>
> Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3

TomTom

My point about formal education can be illustrated using the examples of
online courses. Write a syllabus, submit, kids learn. Deadlines provide
discipline which a self motivated person doesn’t really need in the first
place. I
Granted a teacher can provide answers to specific questions or new ways of
describing something that is in the text which is not understood but at least
from my personal experience everything I needed to learn from a class is
already written in text.
That all said, I am going for a second degree not because I feel I can learn
better from college but because I need to proof that I have.

And when I say you can learn anything you want from a book. I don’t mean a
few books, I mean a lot of books. The best invention for education has been
the printing press..


"The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Spher" wrote:

> >Getting a degree outside of what the professional world looks for is really a
> >waste of time and money.
>
> yup, who wants a sociology degree these days!
>
> > In fact, I have had some teachers that impeded my
> >education because said teacher never bothered to read the material and was
> >giving false information.
>
> yup, there are bad teachers and lecturers just as there are bad IT
> professions, just that in education there are far less of them.
>
> > Everything known to man is written in books we
> >don’t need college to teach us to read.
>
> reading books and understanding the content and the subject matter are
> two totally separate things; reading a book or two does not
> necessarily equate to knowledge. If you had embarked on a degree,
> especially a higher level degree, you would understand this.
>
> >But, alas, the world of work expects
> >degrees.
>
> no, the world expects experience, no matter what the profession is.
> Degree's and the like of in IT, only serve a purpose for the first few
> roles while you are gaining the real world experience that companies
> desire.
>
> >And finally, I read a survey in some online magazine by MS which broke down
> >all the stats for certified people.
> > Ironically, the biggest earners for this
> >certification did not have a computer related degree.
>
> Any fool can (and does) program a computer these days. The tools
> around today have almost made programming an unskilled role, which is
> why you don't see too many roles for 'programmers'. What is important
> are the stages in the process which occur before a 'programmer' enters
> the first line of code.
>
> The purpose of software, despite what the software vendors would have
> you believe, is to support the business, to help it compete better in
> it's market place. In order to do so, a company needs business
> professionals who understand the nature of their core (and subsidiary)
> businesses and the world it operates in. Naturally some of these
> people require a first rate understanding of how to develop software.
>
> Many IT 'professionals' today come from other backgrounds such as
> banking, insurance, accounting, manufacturing, etc,etc, many of which
> will have a degree (or two), while a few others will not. In addition,
> many will hold industry recognized professional qualifications gained
> before they made the switch to IT. These type of people are so
> important. because good systems engineering is vital for any business
> whether or not the solution will be implemented using software. As
> always, these are the roles in demand.
>
> But the point remains, without experience (both business and
> technical) or a first rate education, it is unlikely a somebody,
> despite how 'keen' they are will get into the profession.
>
> If you don't believe this, then tell the people who have no experience
> and a second rate education to apply for an IT role with microsoft
> corporation and see how far they get.
>
> >I have found in my life that the best way to get a job without question is
> >to go to the right church or golf course.
>
> Amen bother.
>
> Interaction with others is vital to get one noticed in life. In IT
> user groups, conventions, seminars, etc are a way to get noticed. But
> you need to get noticed and not just sit there on your a$$. So by
> getting involved, being prepared to speak, prepare presentations etc
> will help you get noticed. My wife operates as a freelance IT
> (financial) business consultant, this was exactly what she did nearly
> twenty years ago to get her started on her own and now works for
> companies both side of the Atlantic.
>
> > That is why I am currently
> >unemployed
>
> Which is down to what and who? There are many reasons why people are
> unemployed such as refusing to relocate, refusing to retrain, having
> the wrong work ethics, not having the necessary business knowledge in
> deemed at the time, or simply being no good at their job! There are
> many other reasons too.
>
> Would being unemployed be any different for some without ten years
> experience and/or an Msc or PHd? Who knows.....
>
> One thing is for sure there a plenty of jobs out there for
> 'experienced professionals', but I do mean 'experienced
> professionals'. And these roles may not be on the same block as where
> everyone lives.
>
> Anyway, good luck.
>
> Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
>

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