Re: Books..and course materials..

"Vanitha" <> wrote:

>Hi,
>
>I have decided to take the following exams.
>If any of you have the suggested books(in this site) for these exams, pls let me know. I am ready to buy it.
>
>thanks in advance.
>-Vanitha
>
>1. Exam 70-1761,2: Designing and Implementing Desktop Applications with Microsoft Visual Basic® 6.0
http://www.microsoft.com/learning/exams/70-176.asp
This exam is scheduled to be discontinued on June 30, 2004.
>2. Exam 70-1751,2: Designing and Implementing Distributed Applications with Microsoft Visual Basic 6.0
http://www.microsoft.com/learning/exams/70-175.asp
This exam is scheduled to be discontinued on June 30, 2004
>3. Exam 70-1002: Analyzing Requirements and Defining Solution Architectures
http://www.microsoft.com/learning/exams/70-100.asp
This exam is scheduled to be discontinued on June 30, 2004
>4. Exam 70-0292: Designing and Implementing Databases with Microsoft SQL Server 7.0
http://www.microsoft.com/learning/exams/70-029.asp
This exam is scheduled to be discontinued on June 30, 2004

Considering the severe time constraint, do you think this
course of action is the is the best use of your time and
money?

Just thought I'd ask...

UAError

"UAError" <> wrote in message
news:...
> "Vanitha" <> wrote:

> Considering the severe time constraint, do you think this
> course of action is the is the best use of your time and
> money?

I was rethinking about same thing.. I am preparing for VC++ MCSD. But the
cost , time and mainly trying to learn specifics of something that is no
longer in use ( for example MTS 2.0 , ATL 2.0 ) makes me think twice.
Do you know any other way out ?

Thanks,
Neel

Neel Roy

"Neel Roy" <> wrote:

>"UAError" <> wrote in message
>news:.. .
>> "Vanitha" <> wrote:
>
>> Considering the severe time constraint, do you think this
>> course of action is the is the best use of your time and
>> money?
>
>I was rethinking about same thing.. I am preparing for VC++ MCSD. But the
>cost , time and mainly trying to learn specifics of something that is no
>longer in use ( for example MTS 2.0 , ATL 2.0 ) makes me think twice.
>Do you know any other way out ?
>
>Thanks,
>Neel

Well, you haven't mentioned what you are trying to achieve
by attaining the MCSD certification. I can understand that
some people want to finish as they already had passed some
exams and for "closure" they need to finish the remaining
ones.

But check out the Product Life Cycle dates:

http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=fh;[ln];LifeDevToolFam

End of Main Stream Support (VB6.0/VC++6.0):
(31-Mar-2005 / 30-Sep-2004)
End of Support (VB6.0/VC++6.0):
(31-Mar-2008 / 30-Sep-2005)

If you already have credible experience you shouldn't need
the certification to get the "Visual Studio 6.0" job done -
acquiring the breadth needed to pass the exams probably will
not pay off.

However the countdown is certainly ticking to capitalize on
your existing skills and really you should invest in the
future and not in the past.

(I wonder what the majority those pre-Y2K Community College
COBOL programmer grads are doing?)

So you're currently not working in a .NET environment? Get
going and get the Amit Kalani Training guides and get the
MCAD and then the MCSD.NET. Transitioning from VC++ to C#
should be easy enough - if you need a little help:

Programming C#, Third Edition
by Jesse Liberty
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/0596004893
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/progcsharp3/

If you want to use your freshly acquired .NET skills with
VC++.NET these might help:

Managed C++ and .NET Development:
Visual Studio .NET 2003 Edition
by Stephen R.G. Fraser
ISBN: 1590590333
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1590590333
http://www.apress.com/book/bookDisplay.html?bID=95

Programming with Managed Extensions for
Microsoft Visual C++ .NET
by Richard Grimes
ISBN: 0735617821
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0735617821
http://www.microsoft.com/mspress/books/6191.asp

Now those with a VB background would tend to gravitate
towards VB.NET but many sources state that it is (almost) as
difficult to learn VB.NET with a VB 6 background as it is to
learn C#.

In fact programmers who only use VB/VBScript should
seriously consider C# as they need to diversify their skill
set - in addition it would give them a clean break from the
VB 6.0 world and some of its less desirable habits. Once a
firm footing in C# is obtained, it should take relatively
little effort to use VB.NET if necessary.

Chances are that in the future you will be faced with a
heterogeneous infrastructure especially if you are working
in a sizable organization - i.e. there are going to be
non-MS platforms (servers) that will be running Java/J2EE
technology. Properly learned C# will provide a much better
foundation for assimilating those incidental Java-skills
than a foundation of VB.NET with an inappropriate VB 6.0
slant.

How can you leverage your existing C++ skills? You need to
realize that VC++ (especially before VC++7.1) was really
only treated as "C with classes" - Standard C++ has made
great strides during the VS 6.0 era, especially when it
comes to templates (meanwhile VC++ 6.0 used macros where
templates would have been more appropriate and safer; even
ATL had to rely heavily on macros because of weak template
support in VC++ 6.0). So there already exists a significant
body of C++ knowledge regarding meta-programming (actually
that is even pre-dated by LISP CLOS in the 1960s) that may
come in handy when .NET generics become available.

Maybe XML's success with meta-data will be paralleled by
Generics and meta-programming.

For some Standard C++/C++ .NET info you may want to start
with Herb Sutter's site:

http://www.gotw.ca/gotw/
http://www.gotw.ca/microsoft/

Stuff on Templates

C++ Templates – The Complete Guide
David Vandevoorde, Nicolai M. Josuttis
Addison-Wesley, 2003
ISBN 0201734842
http://www.awprofessional.com/title/0201734842
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201734842

Modern C++ Design
Andrei Alexandrescu
Addison-Wesley, 2001
ISBN 0201704315
http://www.awprofessional.com/title/0201704315
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201704315
Sample Chapter on "Policy-Based Class design"
http://www.informit.com/articles/art...167842&redir=1
and related earlier paper on "traits"
http://moderncppdesign.com/publications/traits.html

Template metaprograms (1995) by Todd Veldhuizen
http://extreme.indiana.edu/~tveldhui.../meta-art.html



An Introduction to C# Generics by Juval Lowy
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/de...p_generics.asp

UAError

Hi,

The reason behind trying to achieve was to MCSD certification to see how
good I am in VC++.
Although I did have all the time in the world for last few years neither I
had resources (financial and otherwise) Now that I could start preparing I
come to know that exams are to be discontinued at June 30 2004

I have 5+ years of experience in VC++ in almost majority of areas although
after going through both books I came to realize that that I have missed few
(for ex. MTS, MSMQ) Now considering the time frame that I have, I really don
't know how can prepare for sub-technologies which themselves are so big and
in case of MTS or they are not used anymore MTS again and ATL 2.0
Of course there is no shame in hiding that if I want to follow all the books
/ preps material and exam themselves then I am talking 20 grand here.

By saying 'you should invest in the future and not in the past.' I take it
that you are talking about VC++ .NET or C# and not VC 6.0 as I can see
people are really shifting towards these newer technologies.

Unfortunately I am not working on .NET platform as such but I would like to
make transfer, since sooner rather than later ! I will have to change to
..NET no matter how much I like VC 6.0 and am comfortable with it. One thing
I was not able to understand is why MCAD first and then MCSD.NET since
almost all the exams are repeated from MCSD.NET to MCAD. Supposing that I
can pass MCAD for C# do I get the credit for those exams while doing
MCSD.NET ?

One more thing that surprised was that even MFC and ATL 7.0 is released with
Visual Studio .NET in particular Visual C++ .NET there are no exams for the
same. This comes really as surprise. Although it is quite understandable
that MS would want to promote C# and VB.NET more than VC++.NET which would
use newer version but of same old libraries.

Your reply was really in detail and I really appreciate your effort and time
you put into this.

This will certainly help me make the decision.

Thanks again,
Neel


"UAError" <> wrote in message
news:...
> "Neel Roy" <> wrote:
>
> >"UAError" <> wrote in message
> >news:.. .
> >> "Vanitha" <> wrote:
> >
> >> Considering the severe time constraint, do you think this
> >> course of action is the is the best use of your time and
> >> money?
> >
> >I was rethinking about same thing.. I am preparing for VC++ MCSD. But the
> >cost , time and mainly trying to learn specifics of something that is no
> >longer in use ( for example MTS 2.0 , ATL 2.0 ) makes me think twice.
> >Do you know any other way out ?
> >
> >Thanks,
> >Neel
>
> Well, you haven't mentioned what you are trying to achieve
> by attaining the MCSD certification. I can understand that
> some people want to finish as they already had passed some
> exams and for "closure" they need to finish the remaining
> ones.
>
> But check out the Product Life Cycle dates:
>
> http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=fh;[ln];LifeDevToolFam
>
> End of Main Stream Support (VB6.0/VC++6.0):
> (31-Mar-2005 / 30-Sep-2004)
> End of Support (VB6.0/VC++6.0):
> (31-Mar-2008 / 30-Sep-2005)
>
> If you already have credible experience you shouldn't need
> the certification to get the "Visual Studio 6.0" job done -
> acquiring the breadth needed to pass the exams probably will
> not pay off.
>
> However the countdown is certainly ticking to capitalize on
> your existing skills and really you should invest in the
> future and not in the past.
>
> (I wonder what the majority those pre-Y2K Community College
> COBOL programmer grads are doing?)
>
> So you're currently not working in a .NET environment? Get
> going and get the Amit Kalani Training guides and get the
> MCAD and then the MCSD.NET. Transitioning from VC++ to C#
> should be easy enough - if you need a little help:
>
> Programming C#, Third Edition
> by Jesse Liberty
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/0596004893
> http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/progcsharp3/
>
> If you want to use your freshly acquired .NET skills with
> VC++.NET these might help:
>
> Managed C++ and .NET Development:
> Visual Studio .NET 2003 Edition
> by Stephen R.G. Fraser
> ISBN: 1590590333
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1590590333
> http://www.apress.com/book/bookDisplay.html?bID=95
>
> Programming with Managed Extensions for
> Microsoft Visual C++ .NET
> by Richard Grimes
> ISBN: 0735617821
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0735617821
> http://www.microsoft.com/mspress/books/6191.asp
>
> Now those with a VB background would tend to gravitate
> towards VB.NET but many sources state that it is (almost) as
> difficult to learn VB.NET with a VB 6 background as it is to
> learn C#.
>
> In fact programmers who only use VB/VBScript should
> seriously consider C# as they need to diversify their skill
> set - in addition it would give them a clean break from the
> VB 6.0 world and some of its less desirable habits. Once a
> firm footing in C# is obtained, it should take relatively
> little effort to use VB.NET if necessary.
>
> Chances are that in the future you will be faced with a
> heterogeneous infrastructure especially if you are working
> in a sizable organization - i.e. there are going to be
> non-MS platforms (servers) that will be running Java/J2EE
> technology. Properly learned C# will provide a much better
> foundation for assimilating those incidental Java-skills
> than a foundation of VB.NET with an inappropriate VB 6.0
> slant.
>
> How can you leverage your existing C++ skills? You need to
> realize that VC++ (especially before VC++7.1) was really
> only treated as "C with classes" - Standard C++ has made
> great strides during the VS 6.0 era, especially when it
> comes to templates (meanwhile VC++ 6.0 used macros where
> templates would have been more appropriate and safer; even
> ATL had to rely heavily on macros because of weak template
> support in VC++ 6.0). So there already exists a significant
> body of C++ knowledge regarding meta-programming (actually
> that is even pre-dated by LISP CLOS in the 1960s) that may
> come in handy when .NET generics become available.
>
> Maybe XML's success with meta-data will be paralleled by
> Generics and meta-programming.
>
> For some Standard C++/C++ .NET info you may want to start
> with Herb Sutter's site:
>
> http://www.gotw.ca/gotw/
> http://www.gotw.ca/microsoft/
>
> Stuff on Templates
>
> C++ Templates - The Complete Guide
> David Vandevoorde, Nicolai M. Josuttis
> Addison-Wesley, 2003
> ISBN 0201734842
> http://www.awprofessional.com/title/0201734842
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201734842
>
> Modern C++ Design
> Andrei Alexandrescu
> Addison-Wesley, 2001
> ISBN 0201704315
> http://www.awprofessional.com/title/0201704315
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201704315
> Sample Chapter on "Policy-Based Class design"
> http://www.informit.com/articles/art...167842&redir=1
> and related earlier paper on "traits"
> http://moderncppdesign.com/publications/traits.html
>
> Template metaprograms (1995) by Todd Veldhuizen
>
http://extreme.indiana.edu/~tveldhui.../meta-art.html
>
>
>
> An Introduction to C# Generics by Juval Lowy
>
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/de...p_generics.asp

Neel Roy

"Neel Roy" <> wrote:

>Hi,
>
>The reason behind trying to achieve was to MCSD certification to see how
>good I am in VC++.

Well it is my impression that the certification tests your
knowledge of the technologies that can be manipulated
through VC++ - testing mastery of VC++ (language) itself was
never an issue. Not that that was a great loss as the VC++
implementation of C++ was quite poor up until VC++7.0/7.1
(2002/2003).

And the .NET certifications continue that tradition - you
can be barely "literate" in VB.NET/C# as long as you know
how to manipulate certain aspects of the framework to
"accomplish" something.

>Although I did have all the time in the world for last few years neither I
>had resources (financial and otherwise) Now that I could start preparing I
>come to know that exams are to be discontinued at June 30 2004

Well now you can prepare for .NET 1.0/1.1 certification just
as the .NET 2.0 buzz is getting loud.

>I have 5+ years of experience in VC++ in almost majority of areas although
>after going through both books I came to realize that that I have missed few
>(for ex. MTS, MSMQ) Now considering the time frame that I have, I really don
>'t know how can prepare for sub-technologies which themselves are so big and
>in case of MTS or they are not used anymore MTS again and ATL 2.0
>Of course there is no shame in hiding that if I want to follow all the books
>/ preps material and exam themselves then I am talking 20 grand here.

Well, just because you're certified doesn't make you a .NET
guru either (so no need to read everything). It will cost
you the exam fees (5 x $125 assuming you pass first go) and
your prep materials and the Kalani's are a good start. See
my earlier post:

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...oj%404 ax.com

They are training manuals to teach you how the technology
works and how it is used - and as a side-effect the exam
objectives are covered.

MTS is covered in its current incarnation as "Enterprise
Services" (your platform will still call it COM+) in
70-310/320.

ATL 7.0 isn't tested in the exams. ATL 7.0 deprecates
ActiveX, and Visible controls but it is retained for the
sake of COM. COM maintains its importance as it is the
"gateway" technology to .NET functionality (and your .NET
components) for non-.NET applications. Oddly enough ATL has
been joined be ATL-Server to ease the creation of web
services in C++; but again its not tested by any
certification.

>By saying 'you should invest in the future and not in the past.' I take it
>that you are talking about VC++ .NET or C# and not VC 6.0 as I can see
>people are really shifting towards these newer technologies.
>
>Unfortunately I am not working on .NET platform as such but I would like to
>make transfer, since sooner rather than later ! I will have to change to
>.NET no matter how much I like VC 6.0 and am comfortable with it. One thing
>I was not able to understand is why MCAD first and then MCSD.NET since
>almost all the exams are repeated from MCSD.NET to MCAD. Supposing that I
>can pass MCAD for C# do I get the credit for those exams while doing
>MCSD.NET ?

Exams may count towards any number of certifications as long
as the specific certification recognizes that exam as a core
or elective requirement.

So if you take 70-229 as an elective then any MCSD.NET exam
sequence that avoids 70-300 in the first three exams should
gain you an MCAD after the first three passes.

>One more thing that surprised was that even MFC and ATL 7.0 is released with
>Visual Studio .NET in particular Visual C++ .NET there are no exams for the
>same.

The MFC version is mainly for current product support so
that the current developer base gets a bit more time to
manage their transition - considering VC++6.0 support will
cease in a year. MS is hoping they will transition to .NET.

Certain aspects of ATL will remain as long a COM is around -
but it still is only yet another legacy technology.

>This comes really as surprise. Although it is quite understandable
>that MS would want to promote C# and VB.NET more than VC++.NET which would
>use newer version but of same old libraries.

To a certain degree the existence of VC++.NET is surprising
- it has little to do with Standard C++; for the time being
it remains an option when an algorithm/operation can be
optimized with pointer operations and it may have an edge
when interacting with unmanaged APIs (I'm not sure though).

MS strategy (over the long term) may be to shrink the
unmanaged SDK API footprint while eventually only offering
OS services through .NET, making .NET/Windows the ultimate
virtual machine. That would enable them to shrink the
non-.NET kernel to a point where moving to a non-Intel
platform might become attractive again. This transition will
take some time. Anyone recall how long it took to get rid of
all the 16-bit code under Win32 (without omitting features,
supported by its less capable brethen, like WinNT did)?

So maybe .NET will succeed where HAL didn't.

>Your reply was really in detail and I really appreciate your effort and time
>you put into this.
>
>This will certainly help me make the decision.
>
>Thanks again,
>Neel
>

UAError

>Well it is my impression that the certification tests your
>knowledge of the technologies that can be manipulated
>through VC++ - testing mastery of VC++ (language) itself was
>never an issue.

Agreed, and totally mad too.

>Not that that was a great loss as the VC++
>implementation of C++ was quite poor up until VC++7.0/7.1
>(2002/2003).

Some parts, yes, I would agree; like the MCF when compared to
Borland's VCL. However the ATL implementation is something to be proud
of.

As a side note, I was quite surprised how well the 7.1 compiler came
out during the tests reported in the recent issue of Dr Dobb's, and
equally surprised how badly Borland's C++ BuilderX compiler did.....

Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3

The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere