«

I think Americans never faced a problem like Fierce
competition any time in the global market, becos of their
bullish marketing in the world.
Instead of thinking on why jobs are being outsourced to
india, you shouldn't have stop the incoming of IT Pros to
USA. If IT Pros from different countries were welcomed,
then u could have kept the economy revloving around US.
thats ur mistake.

as far as what business need is Business Analysts.
And Indians have always been polite, loyal, faithfull to
people who have given them their Daily Bread...

Ashith Raj



>-----Original Message-----
>>well i think its easy making comments like these.
Developing software here
>>in India is definately cheaper...but its only when u
compare with rates in
>>USA.
>
>You have completely missed my point.
>
>You or any other Indian, chinese or American company,
could never
>produce the quantify of systems to support 'our'
business. Why?
>because neither you or anyone else understands 'our'
business like
>'we' do.
>
>Nowadays, programming is such small part of the
development life
>cycle, we've almost stopped putting a cost against it. We
don't need
>grunt 'programmers', any idiot, even an indian idiot, can
be a
>programmer; that sort of role died ten years ago. What we
need is
>business experts, analysts and engineers who understand
how to keep us
>ahead, or at least up with, our competitors - business
drives software
>not the other way around.
>
>>But who are u people to set the price of a
software...and more so who are u
>>to set the price of a programmer...if USA has
programmers who demand high
>>costs then its YOUR problem....u have built software the
WRONG WAY...may be
>>u always have over-priced all the software produced till
now...and now when
>>Indian programmer comes into picture you all have
problem with it...
>
>I welcome competition, it's what makes good companies
better.
>
>Unfortunately our corporations are greedy and are very
good at
>exploiting foreign 'workers' and their corrupt
governments. In any
>case, our government should put our people first, as
would any other
>government, even a corrupt third world government
>
>> Indian programmer are laughing
>>their way to the bank....
>
>Still doubt if a year's salary would buy you a two week
vacation in
>Disney Land.
>
>Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
>.
>

Ashith Raj opined, On 4/2/04 12:38 AM:

> I think Americans never faced a problem like Fierce
> competition any time in the global market, becos of their
> bullish marketing in the world.
> Instead of thinking on why jobs are being outsourced to
> india, you shouldn't have stop the incoming of IT Pros to
> USA. If IT Pros from different countries were welcomed,
> then u could have kept the economy revloving around US.
> thats ur mistake.

Oh, yes we have. Since the 70's we have watched as our fscking leaders
allowed one industry after another to migrate jobs to foreign sweatshops
in third world cesspools. We have done almost nothing to prevent other
countries from flooding our markets with cheap, substandard goods. There
is nothing wrong with competition when it is equitable. When our
businesses are hampered by high cost of living, taxation, and govt
regulation, that is not competitive. The Indian worker that is being
exploited by this situation does not even realize he is being screwed.

The large corporations are making huge profits from this inequality. The
Indian worker thinks he is doing well because he is making a comfortable
wage for his area. He is not. He is being royally screwed. He should be
getting paid many times more than he is. Why? Because that is what his
labor is worth on the global market. Do you think that software produced
in Mumbai is sold for less than software coded in Silicon Valley? Don't
be ridiculous! The problem is that the average Indian is too docile to
even question the status quo.

So what is accomplished? The Corporations get richer, the shareholders
get richer, and the workers get poorer. It's not an American problem.
It's a global problem. Indians are whoreing their skills when tere is no
need to do so. It's not competition, it's slavery.

It disgusts me that Indians are too ignorant to see it.

>
> as far as what business need is Business Analysts.

Business already has far too many "Business Analysts" by far.

> And Indians have always been polite, loyal, faithfull to
> people who have given them their Daily Bread...

That's nice, but I already have a dog.

JaR
Impolite Thug

Ashith Raj wrote:

> I think Americans never faced a problem like Fierce
> competition any time in the global market, becos of their
> bullish marketing in the world.

We do have some marketing problems, but we have always faced
competition from overseas companies. This isn't new.

The overall level of technical people in India has come up tremendously
over the past 10 years. You have finally come up to a level where US
hi-tech companies think they can do business with you.

We have always done business with other countries (Europe and Japan,
etc). But their pay scale isn't too different from ours for these kinds
of jobs, so there wasn't a big migration of jobs.

> Instead of thinking on why jobs are being outsourced to
> india, you shouldn't have stop the incoming of IT Pros to
> USA. If IT Pros from different countries were welcomed,
> then u could have kept the economy revloving around US.
> thats ur mistake.

Very true! I work with 2 people from India and they are very good
people. I would like to see the visa restrictions lifted so we can have
more people come here to work with us.

Amit Kalani is also originally from India, I believe. He's a fine
example of the quality of workers we can get from India.

> as far as what business need is Business Analysts.
> And Indians have always been polite, loyal, faithfull to
> people who have given them their Daily Bread...
>
> Ashith Raj

Very true again. I like the work ethic of Indians. You will stay with a
problem until it's solved. I have seen one of our Indians work very
late into the night on several occasions. She's a salaried employee, so
she didn't get any extra pay for this.

I would love to see more hard-working Indians come here.

But there are a lot of problems in sending our work to India
(outsourcing). It's hard to explain exactly what work needs to be done.
Many companies don't document things well, and it's hard to give a task
to someone on the other side of the world, and in a different timezone,
if the documentation isn't very good.

Sometimes the documentation might be good, but Indians might not
understand the business very well, and that creates problems, also.

You need to understand that we don't hate you!

Eric

>I think Americans never faced a problem like Fierce
>competition any time in the global market, becos of their
>bullish marketing in the world.

Are you saying we should not have abolished slavery? Or that the West
should lower the living standards down to the poverty levels of the
third world?

>Instead of thinking on why jobs are being outsourced to
>india, you shouldn't have stop the incoming of IT Pros to
>USA. If IT Pros from different countries were welcomed,
>then u could have kept the economy revloving around US.
>thats ur mistake.

IT professionals, as well as professionals form other fields, have,
are and always will be, welcome in the US and other western countries.
The people who are NOT welcome are people who cannot offer anything in
return and wish to enter our country(s) simply to take advantage of
our generous welfare system.

>as far as what business need is Business Analysts.

Amongst others, yes I would agree.

>And Indians have always been polite, loyal, faithfull to
>people who have given them their Daily Bread...

The indian people I have met within the IT profession are indeed that,
and competent with it. However, this is not a personality contest.

Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3

>So what is accomplished? The Corporations get richer, the shareholders
>get richer, and the workers get poorer. It's not an American problem.
>It's a global problem. Indians are whoreing their skills when tere is no
>need to do so. It's not competition, it's slavery.

Exactly.

>It disgusts me that Indians are too ignorant to see it.

Me too.

Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3

>But there are a lot of problems in sending our work to India
>(outsourcing). It's hard to explain exactly what work needs to be done.
>Many companies don't document things well, and it's hard to give a task
>to someone on the other side of the world, and in a different timezone,
>if the documentation isn't very good.
>
>Sometimes the documentation might be good, but Indians might not
>understand the business very well, and that creates problems, also.

And is true when outsourcing to any company, even one based in the US.

The best company to oversee the producing of bespoke type software, is
the company the software is for.

Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3

No matter how much I agree with your in this conversation, the bottomline is
that when people need work to support themselves and thier family, they will
lower their standards in order to get those jobs. It's happening here in
the US. I've seen ppl with Masters degrees in CS applying for entry level
positions just to get in the door. It's sick.

So in a country where the cost of living and average wage are much lower,
they will most definitely not even blink an eye when offered a job that by
their standards makes them a very nice living. I personally have tried to
stick to my guns when applying for computer jobs and keep my salary
requirement where they ideally should be, but I have had so much trouble
finding work that it really seems like it's time to either get more
education (on my way to an MCAD) or back off a bit on my salary reqs. I
mean I have to feed myself somehow. Survival of the fittest as you said.
People gotta do what they gotta do and why should someone half way around
the world give a damn about supposed 'world market' wage of a programmer.
They are part of the world market.... and that's why our companies are
outsourcing. They save the cash and we lose our jobs.

Right or wrong in your mind... that's how the world works, and now bitching
and moaning to the Indian programmers will make any difference. If you want
to direct your cries of injustice someplace, call your representative and
request that they start legislature to heavily tax outsourced labor and make
it a level playing field. That;s about the only way you're gonna win.

-cLocKwOrk


"JaR" <> wrote in message
news:%23DP%...
> Ashith Raj opined, On 4/2/04 12:38 AM:
>
> > I think Americans never faced a problem like Fierce
> > competition any time in the global market, becos of their
> > bullish marketing in the world.
> > Instead of thinking on why jobs are being outsourced to
> > india, you shouldn't have stop the incoming of IT Pros to
> > USA. If IT Pros from different countries were welcomed,
> > then u could have kept the economy revloving around US.
> > thats ur mistake.
>
> Oh, yes we have. Since the 70's we have watched as our fscking leaders
> allowed one industry after another to migrate jobs to foreign sweatshops
> in third world cesspools. We have done almost nothing to prevent other
> countries from flooding our markets with cheap, substandard goods. There
> is nothing wrong with competition when it is equitable. When our
> businesses are hampered by high cost of living, taxation, and govt
> regulation, that is not competitive. The Indian worker that is being
> exploited by this situation does not even realize he is being screwed.
>
> The large corporations are making huge profits from this inequality. The
> Indian worker thinks he is doing well because he is making a comfortable
> wage for his area. He is not. He is being royally screwed. He should be
> getting paid many times more than he is. Why? Because that is what his
> labor is worth on the global market. Do you think that software produced
> in Mumbai is sold for less than software coded in Silicon Valley? Don't
> be ridiculous! The problem is that the average Indian is too docile to
> even question the status quo.
>
> So what is accomplished? The Corporations get richer, the shareholders
> get richer, and the workers get poorer. It's not an American problem.
> It's a global problem. Indians are whoreing their skills when tere is no
> need to do so. It's not competition, it's slavery.
>
> It disgusts me that Indians are too ignorant to see it.
>
> >
> > as far as what business need is Business Analysts.
>
> Business already has far too many "Business Analysts" by far.
>
> > And Indians have always been polite, loyal, faithfull to
> > people who have given them their Daily Bread...
>
> That's nice, but I already have a dog.
>
> JaR
> Impolite Thug

> I've seen ppl with Masters degrees in CS applying for entry level
>positions just to get in the door. It's sick.

That's how it's always been. IT has always been hard to get into, for
the simple reason it costs companies a lot of money to train people,
so nothing has changed here.

Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3

> If you want
>to direct your cries of injustice someplace, call your representative and
>request that they start legislature to heavily tax outsourced labor and make
>it a level playing field.

Already have done, but you're right, it will not make a difference,
because it's the corporations that get a senator into office, and it's
those corporations that get rish[er] by exploitation.

Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3

>urvival of the fittest as you said.
>People gotta do what they gotta do and why should someone half way around
>the world give a damn about supposed 'world market' wage of a programmer.
>They are part of the world market.... and that's why our companies are
>outsourcing.

Those companies which outsource are incompetent, that's why it appears
cheaper to outsource their IT infrastructure - in many cases it's
false economy.

Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3