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I just red a salary survey for MCSD at
http://www.mcpmag.com/salarysurveys/.

The average salary for an MCSD is $82,300.

It seems to me that MCSD is designed for intermediate
developers who expect to take more responsibilities and
get a salary raise. Is this correct?

Are those senior developers still willing to take exams?
It seems to me that the answer is no. They already get
good positions.

Any idea?

But the problem is MCSD is taken and passed but people not even know how
to code and they are not even eligible as Entry Level Programmer.

Or there are many students who wish to take MCSD right after their
graduation or some, before graduation. This is not so bad compared to
people who don't know how to code and people make the career change from
other fields.

I have no qualms with people changing career to IT fields just because
they think in IT, grass are greener. But I can't stand people who just
make a change to IT jobs, tried to pass the MCSD (with brain dumps &
bootcamps etc) and expect to have average salary that you posted.

So, in a nut shell, I don't really believe those salary surveys because
there are so many factors involved and that can't be a true indicator.
And I think salary should go with what people did in thier day-to-day
job. The certs should enhance their knowledge on those day-to-day jobs,
not to the pay raise or salary.

David wrote:

> I just red a salary survey for MCSD at
> http://www.mcpmag.com/salarysurveys/.
>
> The average salary for an MCSD is $82,300.
>
> It seems to me that MCSD is designed for intermediate
> developers who expect to take more responsibilities and
> get a salary raise. Is this correct?
>
> Are those senior developers still willing to take exams?
> It seems to me that the answer is no. They already get
> good positions.
>
> Any idea?

Exactly.

This is why most companies take the 'value' of these certification
with a pinch of salt.

What amazes me the most is that microsoft do nothing to improve the
worth of their own certs. I guess they [microsoft] take the same
approach as the red army did in the second world war - quantity before
quality.

On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 12:02:40 +0800, zeus <> wrote:

>But the problem is MCSD is taken and passed but people not even know how
>to code and they are not even eligible as Entry Level Programmer.
>
>Or there are many students who wish to take MCSD right after their
>graduation or some, before graduation. This is not so bad compared to
>people who don't know how to code and people make the career change from
>other fields.
>
> I have no qualms with people changing career to IT fields just because
>they think in IT, grass are greener. But I can't stand people who just
>make a change to IT jobs, tried to pass the MCSD (with brain dumps &
>bootcamps etc) and expect to have average salary that you posted.
>
>So, in a nut shell, I don't really believe those salary surveys because
>there are so many factors involved and that can't be a true indicator.
>And I think salary should go with what people did in thier day-to-day
>job. The certs should enhance their knowledge on those day-to-day jobs,
>not to the pay raise or salary.
>
>David wrote:
>
>> I just red a salary survey for MCSD at
>> http://www.mcpmag.com/salarysurveys/.
>>
>> The average salary for an MCSD is $82,300.
>>
>> It seems to me that MCSD is designed for intermediate
>> developers who expect to take more responsibilities and
>> get a salary raise. Is this correct?
>>
>> Are those senior developers still willing to take exams?
>> It seems to me that the answer is no. They already get
>> good positions.
>>
>> Any idea?


Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3

David wrote:

> Are those senior developers still willing to take exams?
> It seems to me that the answer is no. They already get
> good positions.

Most of them don't even need a job. They just take the tests to give
themselves a challange.

I concur and to add my own opinion about the original
question:

After excluding certified developers that obtain their
certs through cheating and getting to the core of earnest
developers:

In my experience, yes, the certification seems to attract
more mid level developers.

Junior devs tend not to have the experience needed to
pass the exams (without a lot of memorizing and studying).

Senior devs tend to feel secure because of their lengthy
experience and premium salaries. (Hey, once you hit a
certain level, there isn't much to prove.)

Mid level devs have a good mix of experience and
enthusiasm, and although less efficient and design
oriented - they can get the job done at a lesser salary
than a senior dev.

Employers often don't mind throwing a few grand to a mid
level developer for learning a new technology and
completing a certification - especially if it means the
employer won't have to hire senior dev.

This is why I think mid level devs certify more often
than senior devs.

The only reason I got my certification was so I could wear the lapel pin and
intimidate my fellow co-workers in front of the boss at status meetings.

<Eric> wrote in message news:#...
> David wrote:
>
> > Are those senior developers still willing to take exams?
> > It seems to me that the answer is no. They already get
> > good positions.
>
> Most of them don't even need a job. They just take the tests to give
> themselves a challange.

<WKidd> wrote:

> The only reason I got my certification was so I could wear the lapel
> pin and intimidate my fellow co-workers in front of the boss at
> status meetings.

Ah...the lapel pin! This is what distinguishes MCPs from "average"
people. Wear it proudly - like a badge!

>I concur and to add my own opinion about the original
>question:
>After excluding certified developers that obtain their
>certs through cheating and getting to the core of earnest
>developers:

I wish we could....

>In my experience, yes, the certification seems to attract
>more mid level developers.

low level.

>Junior devs tend not to have the experience needed to
>pass the exams (without a lot of memorizing and studying).

Nothing wrong with that, as long as 'memorizing' and studying results
in an understanding of the subject area which can used in the real
world.

>Senior devs tend to feel secure because of their lengthy
>experience and premium salaries. (Hey, once you hit a
>certain level, there isn't much to prove.)

And those people, such a myself, may not care. The only ways in which
I could earn more money is to leave (no chance) or try for a change of
career (too old).

>Mid level devs have a good mix of experience and
>enthusiasm, and although less efficient and design
>oriented - they can get the job done at a lesser salary
>than a senior dev.

The true costs involved cannot be judged by the salary costs alone.
Cheap does not always cheaper....

>Employers often don't mind throwing a few grand to a mid
>level developer for learning a new technology and
>completing a certification - especially if it means the
>employer won't have to hire senior dev.

This should be the case for all levels. In this business you never
stop learning because the pace of change is so rapid. My company
values it's people and although software development is not it's core
business, they recognize the importance of a successful IT
infrastructure and are quite prepared to invest in it's people to
ensure the continuing success of the company.

>This is why I think mid level devs certify more often
>than senior devs.

I don't know, but think you are correct.

Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3

>The only reason I got my certification was so I could wear the lapel pin and
>intimidate my fellow co-workers in front of the boss at status meetings.

It's also a great chick magnet - ask Consultant, he'll tell you.

Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3

>Ah...the lapel pin! This is what distinguishes MCPs from "average"
>people. Wear it proudly - like a badge!

..... or a brace.

Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3