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How do the experts here quickly come up with references to standards?

 
 
Keith Thompson
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      01-20-2005
Chris Croughton <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:
[...]
> INCITS is what used to be ANSI, I gather (I lose track of these acronym
> changes)...


No, INCITS is the InterNational Committee for Information Technology
Standards, <http://www.incits.org/>. Apparently it's tne new name for
X3; the name was changed in 1996. INCITS is sponsored by ITI, the
Information Technology Industry Council, <http://www.itic.org/>,
formerly CBEMA (Computer and Business Equipment Asssociation).

"I know engineers, they just *love* to change things."
-- Dr. Leonard McCoy

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Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed) <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
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CBFalconer
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      01-20-2005
Chris Croughton wrote:
>

.... snip ...
>
> There is also a copy of a late C89 Draft at
>
> http://dev.unicals.com/papers/c89-draft.html
>
> (someone posted it recently either here or comp.std.c and I snarfed
> the reference). It's one big HTML file, and the conversion to HTML
> leaves something to be desired (at least one of the indices has no
> line breaks!) but it's the only easily available copy of the C89
> standard I've found.


ansic89.txt 494130 ANSI C standard, last draft.

<http://home.earthlink.net/~bobbitts/c89.txt>
or <http://cern.ch/dan.pop/ansi.c>

I believe that copy has a hole somewhere.


--
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Mike Wahler
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      01-20-2005
"Kobu" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed) oups.com...
> Hello,
>
> I really admire how the experts that roam clc quickly come up with
> specific references to parts of C standard documentation. It beats
> textbooks anyday because it leaves everyone with less doubt.


Yes. Many textbooks have errors (but many also have
companion 'errata' sites on the web). And then there's
Herb.

> My question is, how do you people do it? Do most of you have hardcopy
> versions of the standards or browse online versions?


The C standard is not (legally) publicly available for free,
it must be purchased. It's available as hard copy or
as a .PDF file (the latter is much less expensive).

I find things by using the Adobe Acrobat search feature,
giving it selected keywords (but this does take practice,
and gets easier once one becomes familiar with its
organization, writing 'style' and terminology used).

>Are most of you
> already familiar with the language standards enough to quickly find
> what's needed (much like an experienced CPA/CA looking at Accounting
> Standards).


When I first got my copy of the standard I was not familiar with
it at all. But experience with it makes using it easier with each
use (just as with your CPA analogy). And of course, as with anything,
those issues most commonly dealt with get added to the category of
'memorized'.

>Would you recommend that an intermediate level C programmer
> read these standards straight through?


I would not recommend anyone with any level of expertise read
it 'front to back' like a book. It's intended as a reference,
as it's not organized as a textbook would be (i.e. information
in a particular portion isn't necessarily built upon that
of previous sections -- it does use 'forward references' as
an aid to the reader, however).

I would recommend that an intermediate level (or any professional)
C coder does own a copy of the standard. It's only about 20USD for
a .PDF copy available from www.webstore.ansi.org. Search for
"9899:1999".

Finally, an organization employing several coders might provide
a copy of the standard for them to share. Even if this were
the case for me, I prefer to have my own personal copy.

HTH,
-Mike


 
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Mike Wahler
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      01-20-2005

"Ben Pfaff" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> "Kobu" <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:
>
> > I really admire how the experts that roam clc quickly come up with
> > specific references to parts of C standard documentation. It beats
> > textbooks anyday because it leaves everyone with less doubt.
> >
> > My question is, how do you people do it?

>
> I converted my PDF copies of the standards into text files.


Curious: What tool did you use for that?

-Mike


 
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Ben Pfaff
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      01-20-2005
"Mike Wahler" <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:

> "Ben Pfaff" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>> I converted my PDF copies of the standards into text files.

>
> Curious: What tool did you use for that?


pdftotext from xpdf, plus a little search-and-replace
postprocessing to fix a few things.
--
int main(void){char p[]="ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZabcdefghijklmnopqrstuv wxyz.\
\n",*q="kl BIcNBFr.NKEzjwCIxNJC";int i=sizeof p/2;char *strchr();int putchar(\
);while(*q){i+=strchr(p,*q++)-p;if(i>=(int)sizeof p)i-=sizeof p-1;putchar(p[i]\
);}return 0;}
 
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Default User
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      01-20-2005
Mike Wahler wrote:
> "Kobu" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message


> > My question is, how do you people do it? Do most of you have

hardcopy
> > versions of the standards or browse online versions?

>
> The C standard is not (legally) publicly available for free,
> it must be purchased. It's available as hard copy or
> as a .PDF file (the latter is much less expensive).


While it doesn't help me for C, my company recently purchased some sort
of site license for the C++ standard, so they can have the PDF of the
2003 update to that on an internal tools web site. Very handy.

I'm a member of the user group that works with the tools people, I'll
have to ask how much that license cost. More than $18 I'll bet.
>



Brian

 
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Chris Croughton
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      01-20-2005
On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 20:04:35 GMT, Mike Wahler
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>
> "Ben Pfaff" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>> "Kobu" <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:
>>
>> > I really admire how the experts that roam clc quickly come up with
>> > specific references to parts of C standard documentation. It beats
>> > textbooks anyday because it leaves everyone with less doubt.
>> >
>> > My question is, how do you people do it?

>>
>> I converted my PDF copies of the standards into text files.

>
> Curious: What tool did you use for that?


Acrobat, tell it to save as a text file!

There is a GNU too pdftotext as well, but I've found that it fails on a
number of PDF files (I believe it uses ghostscript).

Chris C
 
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Mike Wahler
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      01-20-2005
"Chris Croughton" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> >>
> >> I converted my PDF copies of the standards into text files.

> >
> > Curious: What tool did you use for that?

>
> Acrobat, tell it to save as a text file!


That was my first instinct, but alas, by copy does not
allow doing so.

>
> There is a GNU too pdftotext as well, but I've found that it fails on a
> number of PDF files (I believe it uses ghostscript).


Thanks for your suggestions.

-Mike


 
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lawrence.jones@ugs.com
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      01-20-2005
Chris Croughton <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
> INCITS is what used to be ANSI, I gather (I lose track of these acronym
> changes)...


Actually, INCITS is what was briefly known as NCITS and before that was
Accredited Standards Committee X3, Information Technology. ANSI is who
accredited it, and who delegates responsibility for IT standards to it.

-Larry Jones

Girls are like slugs -- they probably serve some purpose, but
it's hard to imagine what. -- Calvin
 
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Chris Croughton
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      01-21-2005
On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 22:24:43 GMT, Mike Wahler
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> "Chris Croughton" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>> >>
>> >> I converted my PDF copies of the standards into text files.
>> >
>> > Curious: What tool did you use for that?

>>
>> Acrobat, tell it to save as a text file!

>
> That was my first instinct, but alas, by copy does not
> allow doing so.


Ah, version 6 on Windows (at least) does allow that (with the C spec.
anyway, there are other PDF files with embedded graphics which it can't
save as text).

>> There is a GNU too pdftotext as well, but I've found that it fails on
>> a number of PDF files (I believe it uses ghostscript).

>
> Thanks for your suggestions.


You can also try pdf2ps and ps2ascii, that sometimes works better (or
worse) than pdftotext. Somewhere I've seen a pdf to HTLM converter but
it doesn't seem to be on my system...

Chris C
 
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