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M is for Magenta

 
 
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)
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      11-12-2006
David J. Littleboy wrote:


> I don't know. What I do know is that Sony is the main supplier of CCDs to
> the dcam industry, so it's seriously unlikely that a Kodak dcam doesn't have
> a Sony sensor.


Kodak makes some of the best CCDs on the market and has done so for decades.
They are a major supplier of CCDs to the scientific community as well as
digital cameras of all sizes. For example, this chip is supposedly
used in the Leica M8:

http://www.kodak.com/ezpres/business...00LongSpec.pdf

>>>(Kodak _might_ not be using Sony sensors, but it's exceedingly unlikely.

>>
>>Bad decision on Kodak's part, given Sony's notorious quality control
>>issues of recent years.

>
> Yep. Sony's been taking a beatin'. I wonder how PS3 will do.


I think it would be strange for Kodak to not be using Kodak
sensors in their cameras.

Roger
 
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David J. Littleboy
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      11-12-2006

"Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> David J. Littleboy wrote:
>
>
>> I don't know. What I do know is that Sony is the main supplier of CCDs to
>> the dcam industry, so it's seriously unlikely that a Kodak dcam doesn't
>> have a Sony sensor.

>
> Kodak makes some of the best CCDs on the market and has done so for
> decades.
> They are a major supplier of CCDs to the scientific community as well as
> digital cameras of all sizes. For example, this chip is supposedly
> used in the Leica M8:
> http://www.kodak.com/ezpres/business...00LongSpec.pdf


Sorry; "dcam" in my dialect means '2/3" and smaller'. Kodak has been a
player in dSLRs from the start, and in digital backs as well. (Although
FillFactory makes some of their sensors.)

>>>>(Kodak _might_ not be using Sony sensors, but it's exceedingly unlikely.
>>>
>>>Bad decision on Kodak's part, given Sony's notorious quality control
>>>issues of recent years.

>>
>> Yep. Sony's been taking a beatin'. I wonder how PS3 will do.

>
> I think it would be strange for Kodak to not be using Kodak
> sensors in their cameras.


But as I mentioned before, Kodak doesn't make their P&S cameras, they're
OEM'ed from Japan and/or Korea.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan


 
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Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)
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      11-12-2006
David J. Littleboy wrote:

> "Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>>David J. Littleboy wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>I don't know. What I do know is that Sony is the main supplier of CCDs to
>>>the dcam industry, so it's seriously unlikely that a Kodak dcam doesn't
>>>have a Sony sensor.

>>
>>Kodak makes some of the best CCDs on the market and has done so for
>>decades.
>>They are a major supplier of CCDs to the scientific community as well as
>>digital cameras of all sizes. For example, this chip is supposedly
>>used in the Leica M8:
>>http://www.kodak.com/ezpres/business...00LongSpec.pdf

>
>
> Sorry; "dcam" in my dialect means '2/3" and smaller'. Kodak has been a
> player in dSLRs from the start, and in digital backs as well. (Although
> FillFactory makes some of their sensors.)


Did you check out the cmos sensors:
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/dpq/site/...SProductFamily

They also have small interline CCDs (but not big MPixels).

A new question: Anyone know if Sony has data sheets online
for any of the CCDs they sell to other manufacturers?
(or any of their CCDs)

Roger
 
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David J. Littleboy
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      11-12-2006

"Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> David J. Littleboy wrote:
>> "Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>David J. Littleboy wrote:
>>>
>>>>I don't know. What I do know is that Sony is the main supplier of CCDs
>>>>to the dcam industry, so it's seriously unlikely that a Kodak dcam
>>>>doesn't have a Sony sensor.
>>>
>>>Kodak makes some of the best CCDs on the market and has done so for
>>>decades.
>>>They are a major supplier of CCDs to the scientific community as well as
>>>digital cameras of all sizes. For example, this chip is supposedly
>>>used in the Leica M8:
>>>http://www.kodak.com/ezpres/business...00LongSpec.pdf

>>
>>
>> Sorry; "dcam" in my dialect means '2/3" and smaller'. Kodak has been a
>> player in dSLRs from the start, and in digital backs as well. (Although
>> FillFactory makes some of their sensors.)

>
> Did you check out the cmos sensors:
> http://www.kodak.com/US/en/dpq/site/...SProductFamily
>
> They also have small interline CCDs (but not big MPixels).


Roger, I know Kodak makes sensors. But I've never heard of them being a
player in the P&S CCD market.

> A new question: Anyone know if Sony has data sheets online
> for any of the CCDs they sell to other manufacturers?
> (or any of their CCDs)


They have short blurbs in their online tech magazine, CX-News. But those
2-page blurbs is the most detailed documentation I've seen recently.

http://www.sony.net/Products/SC-HP/cx_news/index.html

The current issue discusses the ICX629 series. (A quick search turned up no
more in Japanese than there is in English for the more recent products.)

Here are some older ones. (Click the pdf image.)

http://www.datasheetarchive.com/search.php?q=ICX084AL

Which I got to from

http://www.datasheetarchive.com/I-15.shtml

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan


 
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Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)
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      11-13-2006
David J. Littleboy wrote:

> "Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>Did you check out the cmos sensors:
>>http://www.kodak.com/US/en/dpq/site/...SProductFamily
>>
>>They also have small interline CCDs (but not big MPixels).

>
> Roger, I know Kodak makes sensors. But I've never heard of them being a
> player in the P&S CCD market.


I thought I read recently that Kodak was the largest or at
least a major supplier of digital cameras, and since
they no longer have DSLRs, it must be the small dcams.
>
>
>>A new question: Anyone know if Sony has data sheets online
>>for any of the CCDs they sell to other manufacturers?
>>(or any of their CCDs)

>
>
> They have short blurbs in their online tech magazine, CX-News. But those
> 2-page blurbs is the most detailed documentation I've seen recently.
>
> http://www.sony.net/Products/SC-HP/cx_news/index.html
>
> The current issue discusses the ICX629 series. (A quick search turned up no
> more in Japanese than there is in English for the more recent products.)
>
> Here are some older ones. (Click the pdf image.)
>
> http://www.datasheetarchive.com/search.php?q=ICX084AL
>
> Which I got to from
>
> http://www.datasheetarchive.com/I-15.shtml


David, Thanks for the info. I'm working on a new
sensor performance summary page for digital camera sensors.

Roger
 
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Scott W
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      11-13-2006
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) wrote:
> I thought I read recently that Kodak was the largest or at
> least a major supplier of digital cameras, and since
> they no longer have DSLRs, it must be the small dcams.


I don't know what all they are doing but at one point they were getting
heavy into
the very small sensors for cell phone cameras.

I would imagine they are in a fair number of P&S as well and the M8.

How much of the DSLR market if any they have I have no idea.

Scott

 
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David J. Littleboy
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      11-13-2006

"Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
> I thought I read recently that Kodak was the largest or at
> least a major supplier of digital cameras, and since
> they no longer have DSLRs, it must be the small dcams.


I haven't heard of Kodak supplying dcams, but they have been the leader in
the US dcam market for a long time. With rebadged cameras. (That Kodak
purchases their dcams OEM is old news.)

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0009/00...harpnkodak.asp

"Kiyoshi Osaki, a spokesman for Kodak Japan Ltd., confirmed that Eastman
Kodak is getting digital cameras from Sharp for sale in the U.S. He declined
to provide further details."

>> Here are some older ones. (Click the pdf image.)
>>
>> http://www.datasheetarchive.com/search.php?q=ICX084AL
>>
>> Which I got to from
>>
>> http://www.datasheetarchive.com/I-15.shtml

>
> David, Thanks for the info.


Sheesh, I can do better than that.

http://www.sony.co.jp/~semicon/english/90203.html

Also, you might find back issues of their bimonthly CX-News useful.

http://www.sony.net/Products/SC-HP/c...acknumber.html

If you go through the back issues of CX-News looking for articles on CCD
sensors, you can
the model numbers of their CCDs, and then you can search for what's out
there. There have been CX-News overview articles giving their history +
roadmaps for CCD development in the past, but not recently. You can
sometimes get an idea of what Sony is thinking by reading between the lines
in the CX-News articles.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan


 
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Rich
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      11-13-2006

Scott W wrote:
> Over the last few days it has become clear that the M8 has far too weak
> of an IR blocking filter. The problem is textiles that are dyed black
> often reflect a lot of IR, which the camera sees as both red and blue.
> The result is that many clothes that should be black photograph as
> magenta.
>
> In watching the Leica forums I find it interesting that a number of
> people are saying that this is not a problem since it is easy to change
> the colors in Photoshop. Now call me crazy but I would be more then a
> little upset if I paid $5,000 for a camera only to find out that I had
> to hand adjust colors in my photos. The problem is that you can't
> just do a global replace of black for magenta since the real world does
> have magenta in it.
>
> It will be interesting to see how this plays out over the next few
> days.
>


Why not make the most of it and use it for IR (which it might be good
at) until the fix comes in. It actually isn't the only camera to do
this.

 
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Scott W
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      11-13-2006
Rich wrote:
> Why not make the most of it and use it for IR (which it might be

good
> at) until the fix comes in. It actually isn't the only camera to do
> this.


For some people this will not be bad. But the worry is that the fix
might be a filter in front of the lens and some people are not too keen
on this.

I think for many people if Leica has said up front that you needed to
use a filter on your lenses they would not have had too big a problem
with that. It was that they did not bother to tell anyone about this,
and in fact would have appeared to have suppressed this bit of data
that has people upset.

Scott

 
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ASAAR
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      11-13-2006
On 12 Nov 2006 20:13:56 -0800, Scott W wrote:

> I think for many people if Leica has said up front that you needed to
> use a filter on your lenses they would not have had too big a problem
> with that. It was that they did not bother to tell anyone about this,
> and in fact would have appeared to have suppressed this bit of data
> that has people upset.


A fair number of people seem to have gotten excercized about the
IR problem, but I note than none of the ones that I've seen actually
are Leica owners. Leica may want to see if instead of using an IR
filter, a Schadenfreude filter produces better results.

 
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