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Cheapest Full Frame Digital Camera?

 
 
David J. Littleboy
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      11-04-2006

"MarkČ" <mjmorgan(lowest even number here)@cox..net> wrote:
>> On Nov 4, 8:38 am, "MarkČ" <mjmorgan(lowest even number
>> here)@cox..net> wrote:
>>> Canon 5D

>>
>> Hey, dude, it's not nice to mock less informed posters, even at 5:30
>> AM.

>
> I'm not mocking at all.
>
> The fact is...full frame cameras like the 5D are much less forgiving...on
> several levels.
>
> One, it will expose the flaws in less-than-top-quality lenses because the
> detail is that good.


I disagree here. The 5D has much fatter pixels than the 400D, and requires
that much less resolution (IMHO the significant paramater is no resolution
but contrast at 75% of the sensor's Nyquist frequenct, but we can call that
"resolution" for convenience). Even the lowly US$100 (used) Canon 55-200
plastic PoC coughs up lovely sharp images on the 5D if you stop down a bit.

> Two...it requires more care in terms of aperture value and due to the
> return of normal vignetting issues we'd all but forgotten about after
> becoming accustomed to cropped sensor sizes.


This is becoming less and less true. APS-C users are using fewer and fewer
FF lenses as consumer zooms with more convenient focal lengths for APS-C
appear. Vignetting in made-for-APS-C lenses is just as bad on APS-C as it is
in made-for-35mm lenses on FF. And stopping down a bit isn't a big deal.

> Three: It has no built-in flash...meaning you must buy a show-mounted
> flash, or rely solely on ambient light.


I suppose. I've not found the need to use flash on my 5D yet. YMMV.

Argumentatively yours,
David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan


 
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Graham Fountain
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      11-05-2006
MarkČ wrote:

> Four: If you would prefer help as a new DSLR shooter from the modes which
> lesser Canon cameras have (Sports mode, Landscape mode, Macro, etc.)...it is
> assumed that you know how to do that, and you are therefore NOT given these
> modes--You've got to create the settings yourself.

What I want to know is - why do I have to spend $5k(AUS) to get rid of
this feature.
Why can't someone come out with a camera that has an aperture ring and a
shutter dial and that's it. Add a "match-the-needle" viewfinder for good
measure and we're done. The shutter dial could have an A position for
the lazy, and the aperture ring could have an A position. Full auto -
both on A. Shutter on A, selected aperture = aperture priority. Aperture
on A, shutter selected = Shutter priority. Select both aperture and
shutter, and you have full manual. No messing around with mode dials and
wheels. No "push this button while turning the wheel to select
aperture". Just simple straightforward and logical controls.
The 5D almost gets there, the new Pana sort of does it, but again both
are expensive cameras. Why does a camera have to be expensive to be simple?
>
> These are just a few examples.
>

 
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MarkČ
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      11-05-2006
Graham Fountain wrote:
> MarkČ wrote:
>
>> Four: If you would prefer help as a new DSLR shooter from the modes
>> which lesser Canon cameras have (Sports mode, Landscape mode, Macro,
>> etc.)...it is assumed that you know how to do that, and you are
>> therefore NOT given these modes--You've got to create the settings
>> yourself.

> What I want to know is - why do I have to spend $5k(AUS) to get rid of
> this feature.


You don't have to.
Lesser models have fully manual controls too... They just use meter
markings instead of a needle.

> Why can't someone come out with a camera that has an aperture ring
> and a shutter dial and that's it. Add a "match-the-needle" viewfinder
> for good measure and we're done. The shutter dial could have an A
> position for the lazy, and the aperture ring could have an A position.
> Full auto -
> both on A. Shutter on A, selected aperture = aperture priority.
> Aperture on A, shutter selected = Shutter priority. Select both
> aperture and shutter, and you have full manual. No messing around
> with mode dials and wheels. No "push this button while turning the
> wheel to select aperture". Just simple straightforward and logical
> controls.
> The 5D almost gets there, the new Pana sort of does it, but again both
> are expensive cameras. Why does a camera have to be expensive to be
> simple?


Because what's simple to you and me is confusing to the masses.

But really, the 30D, 10D, 20D and even the old D30 and D60s were very
straignt forward to use in fully manual mode.

--
Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by MarkČ at:
www.pbase.com/markuson


 
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Graham Fountain
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      11-05-2006
MarkČ wrote:
> Graham Fountain wrote:
>> MarkČ wrote:
>>
>>> Four: If you would prefer help as a new DSLR shooter from the modes
>>> which lesser Canon cameras have (Sports mode, Landscape mode, Macro,
>>> etc.)...it is assumed that you know how to do that, and you are
>>> therefore NOT given these modes--You've got to create the settings
>>> yourself.

>> What I want to know is - why do I have to spend $5k(AUS) to get rid of
>> this feature.

>
> You don't have to.
> Lesser models have fully manual controls too...

But the fully manual controls suck!
On the Rebel series, if you are in Tv you use the dial to change
shutter. In Av the same dial changes aperture. In M, the dial changes
shutter, and you have to press and hold the +/- button to change
Aperture - hardly a user friendly system. Yes it does it, but it's not
intuitive, comfortable or quick.
The 30D, which is meant to be an upgrade (and it does feel nicer to
hold), is even worse on the user interface. In Tv the dial near the
shutter changes shutter speed. In Av it changes aperture. In M, the dial
near the shutter does shutter speed, and it is now the back dial for
aperture. Depending on what mode we are in, the dial to change aperture
changes - pretty dumb situation. Not only that, but the dial is in the
most awkward possible position to try and access if you are holding the
camera to your face - it's awkward positioning makes it even harder to
use than pushing the +/- button as on the Rebel.
The other advantage of aperture ring and shutter speed dials is their
absolute positioning. When working quickly you can set them (aperture
especially) purely by feel. The dial system modern cameras use doesn't
allow this. Plus you face the problem where if you turn the dial fast,
you outrun the electronics, and it doesn't change by the amount you
selected - making it impossible to quickly go from one end of the
spectrum to the other.

> They just use meter
> markings instead of a needle.

Have you ever used a match-needle system? A bunch of leds showing +/-2
stops just doesn't even come close to a match-needle. For starters the
match-needle system shows far more than 2 stops range, so you can
instantly see exactly how far out you are. Shooting a scene with
difficult lighting? Just wave the camera around and watch what the
needle does - you can instantly see the brightness difference between
the dark and bright areas to make a judgement call on where to set
exposure - modern systems pretty much force you to use bracketing and/or
after-the-fact histogram assessment. Bracketing and Histograms are handy
tools, but are no match for getting the exposure right in the first place.
 
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MarkČ
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      11-05-2006
Graham Fountain wrote:
> MarkČ wrote:
>> Graham Fountain wrote:
>>> MarkČ wrote:
>>>
>>>> Four: If you would prefer help as a new DSLR shooter from the modes
>>>> which lesser Canon cameras have (Sports mode, Landscape mode,
>>>> Macro, etc.)...it is assumed that you know how to do that, and you
>>>> are therefore NOT given these modes--You've got to create the
>>>> settings yourself.
>>> What I want to know is - why do I have to spend $5k(AUS) to get rid
>>> of this feature.

>>
>> You don't have to.
>> Lesser models have fully manual controls too...

> But the fully manual controls suck!
> On the Rebel series, if you are in Tv you use the dial to change
> shutter. In Av the same dial changes aperture. In M, the dial changes
> shutter, and you have to press and hold the +/- button to change
> Aperture - hardly a user friendly system. Yes it does it, but it's not
> intuitive, comfortable or quick.
> The 30D, which is meant to be an upgrade (and it does feel nicer to
> hold), is even worse on the user interface. In Tv the dial near the
> shutter changes shutter speed. In Av it changes aperture. In M, the
> dial near the shutter does shutter speed, and it is now the back dial
> for aperture. Depending on what mode we are in, the dial to change
> aperture changes - pretty dumb situation. Not only that, but the dial
> is in the most awkward possible position to try and access if you are
> holding the camera to your face - it's awkward positioning makes it
> even harder to use than pushing the +/- button as on the Rebel.
> The other advantage of aperture ring and shutter speed dials is their
> absolute positioning. When working quickly you can set them (aperture
> especially) purely by feel. The dial system modern cameras use doesn't
> allow this. Plus you face the problem where if you turn the dial fast,
> you outrun the electronics, and it doesn't change by the amount you
> selected - making it impossible to quickly go from one end of the
> spectrum to the other.
>
>> They just use meter
>> markings instead of a needle.

> Have you ever used a match-needle system? A bunch of leds showing +/-2
> stops just doesn't even come close to a match-needle. For starters the
> match-needle system shows far more than 2 stops range, so you can
> instantly see exactly how far out you are. Shooting a scene with
> difficult lighting? Just wave the camera around and watch what the
> needle does - you can instantly see the brightness difference between
> the dark and bright areas to make a judgement call on where to set
> exposure - modern systems pretty much force you to use bracketing
> and/or after-the-fact histogram assessment. Bracketing and Histograms
> are handy tools, but are no match for getting the exposure right in
> the first place.


Ya, I guess I'd have to agree. My first camera had a needle, and just like
with those pesky digital speedometers they thought looked cool in 80's
automobiles...there's nothing quite so useful as the physical needle...

--
Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by MarkČ at:
www.pbase.com/markuson


 
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Not Disclosed
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      11-06-2006
http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed) wrote:
> I still have time to cancel out the Rebel XTi 400D order. What is the
> cheapest full frame sensor camera, and does it obviate the need to
> purchase additional lenses in order to be worth the money?
>

The Canon 5D at 3.6X ($3700 CDN) the price of the Rebel XTi kit, you'll
still need a lens.

 
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David J. Littleboy
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      11-06-2006

"Not Disclosed" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> (E-Mail Removed) wrote:
>> I still have time to cancel out the Rebel XTi 400D order. What is the
>> cheapest full frame sensor camera, and does it obviate the need to
>> purchase additional lenses in order to be worth the money?
>>

> The Canon 5D at 3.6X ($3700 CDN) the price of the Rebel XTi kit, you'll
> still need a lens.


Exactly. A 5D + glass is seriously painful money.

That's why the smart thing to do is to buy a Rebel and FF glass and learn
how dSLRs work with the Rebel. Then if you decide that you need FF, you
won't have to buy glass, and it becomes much more affordable. Besides, two
or three years from now, FF bodies will probably be quite a bit cheaper.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan


 
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MarkČ
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      11-06-2006
David J. Littleboy wrote:
> "Not Disclosed" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> (E-Mail Removed) wrote:
>>> I still have time to cancel out the Rebel XTi 400D order. What is
>>> the cheapest full frame sensor camera, and does it obviate the need
>>> to purchase additional lenses in order to be worth the money?
>>>

>> The Canon 5D at 3.6X ($3700 CDN) the price of the Rebel XTi kit,
>> you'll still need a lens.

>
> Exactly. A 5D + glass is seriously painful money.
>
> That's why the smart thing to do is to buy a Rebel and FF glass and
> learn how dSLRs work with the Rebel. Then if you decide that you need
> FF, you won't have to buy glass, and it becomes much more affordable.
> Besides, two or three years from now, FF bodies will probably be
> quite a bit cheaper.


I agree with that. Bodies will come and go, but quality lenses can stay
with you for a long time. For me, since I knew I'd eventually want FF, I
avoided EF-S, and stuck with L lenses. The plan paid off, since I didn't
need to "ugrade" my lenses once I bought the 5D. It pays to plan ahead.
--
Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by MarkČ at:
www.pbase.com/markuson


 
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Mike Ross
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      11-07-2006
On 4 Nov 2006 05:13:32 -0800, (E-Mail Removed) wrote:

>I still have time to cancel out the Rebel XTi 400D order. What is the
>cheapest full frame sensor camera, and does it obviate the need to
>purchase additional lenses in order to be worth the money?


Only Canon are still in the game producing new cameras, but you could
IMHO do a lot worse that pick up a used Kodak DCS PRO SLR/n (or /c)
for ~$1500-2000. Not quite in the Canon league but still full frame
and a bloody good camera - how good it is *for you* depends on what
you shoot of course.

Mike
--
http://www.corestore.org
'As I walk along these shores
I am the history within'
 
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MarkČ
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      11-07-2006
SMS wrote:
> MarkČ wrote:
>
>> I agree with that. Bodies will come and go, but quality lenses can
>> stay with you for a long time. For me, since I knew I'd eventually
>> want FF, I avoided EF-S, and stuck with L lenses. The plan paid
>> off, since I didn't need to "ugrade" my lenses once I bought the 5D.
>> It pays to plan ahead.

>
> True, but OTOH, the good EF-s lenses have very high resale value (if
> you got a good price on the EF-s, the resale value can be over 90%).
> Normally I don't think about resale value on stuff like this, but I
> knew that the 10-22 EF-s lens could easily be sold on craigslist when
> I go full frame. I routinely see used Canon lenses selling for about
> what new lenses cost from reliable etailers.
>
> While the prosumer and pro markets are all moving to full-frame, I
> think that Canon and Nikon will keep the smaller sensor cameras for
> the amateur market.


Canon has indicated it's desire to stick with the two-tier sensor
system...so the 1.6 probably won't go away any time soon--which is good for
EF-S owners. On the other hand...if FF prices dip low enough, we may see
fewer and fewer serious amateurs going with the 1.6 crop, and considering
FF. When/if that happens, the re-sale value may drop.

Who knows... As for me, the hassle of re-sale...and...the pleasure of using
high quality optics from the beginning make the investment worth it to me.

--
Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by MarkČ at:
www.pbase.com/markuson


 
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