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Re: HP OJ d145 color ink out error replace color ink cartridge message

 
 
The Kaminsky Family
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-24-2006
"Bob Headrick" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
news:(E-Mail Removed):

> If you were actually trying to be rational you would have actually
> read the web sites I provided, which answer many of your questions:
> http://h10060.www1.hp.com/pageyield/...kjetYield.html


This is a great step forward, Bob. We thank you for pointing it out as we
print family photos and we hate to have to run out to buy expensive ink
cartridges which run out at the worst moment. I gave up on storing the ink
cartridges not only because I learned the expiration dates kill them without
me doing anything but also because I'd have to store 7 incompatible
cartridges just to replenish my two HP printers I bought from Costco.

I do have two questions, since you seem to be very knowledgeable.

Is there any progress on getting this printer ink yield standard to the
consumer by Christmas of 2007 or 2008 for all printers sold in the US?

Also, why are there so very many different types of HP ink cartridges? My
family has to sort through a wall of them, taking up tons of shelf space at
Costco, just to find the type each of our printers use (HP 14 for one printer
and HP 2 for the other printer). The HP 2 printer uses a LOT of cartridges
too! And they are teeeeny tiny to boot.

Why are there so many incompatible types of ink cartridges for something as
fundamental as holding ink in a tank?

 
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Bob Headrick
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Posts: n/a
 
      10-24-2006

"The Kaminsky Family" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:Xns9865E87A46B4BTheKaminskyFamily@207.115.17. 102...

> Is there any progress on getting this printer ink yield standard to
> the
> consumer by Christmas of 2007 or 2008 for all printers sold in the US?


It has been a year since I had any involvement with the standards stuff
(and only on the very periphery then) and the target at that time was
for 2006 ratification. I see from some of my old emails that at one
time the expectation was that the standard would be ratified in 2005
.

> Also, why are there so very many different types of HP ink cartridges?
> My
> family has to sort through a wall of them, taking up tons of shelf
> space at
> Costco, just to find the type each of our printers use (HP 14 for one
> printer
> and HP 2 for the other printer).


HP has been making inkjet's since 1970-something and for the most part
all the cartridges are still available. Improvements in technology
bring new inks and new printheads for new printers, but the old
cartridges are still on the shelf as well to support the original
printers. As for your new printer with "a lot" of cartridges, it has
six inks and individual supplies for each color.

> Why are there so many incompatible types of ink cartridges for
> something as
> fundamental as holding ink in a tank?


There are different inks for different purposes. The recent expansion
of home photo printing has created demand for inks with better print
quality and lightfastnesses. The printer I use has a black cartridge
and three different tri-color cartridges (CMY, photo and photo gray) and
is available in several different sizes. Some of the printers have
printheads built in, while others, like the printers you have, have
separate printheads. In some cases, such as the 57+ and 78+ cartridges
the new inks are retrofitted back into the previous generation, but
typically this is not possible due to backwards compatibility issues.
Some cartridges were used in a large number of systems. For example,
the #45 black cartridge was designed into more than a hundred different
printer, all-in-one and large format printer models over a period of
nearly a decade.

Regards,
Bob Headrick, MS MVP Printing/Imaging

 
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Jack Linthicum
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Posts: n/a
 
      10-25-2006
On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 23:29:14 -0700, "Bob Headrick" <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

>HP has been making inkjet's since 1970-something and for the most part
>all the cartridges are still available.


Maybe so, but so has Kellog and Post cereals. In Marketing 101, you
learn to create slight, yet incompatible, variations on the product so
as to gain shelf space at the consumer outlet at the expense of the
competition. The whole point is to squeeze out the competition by
providing a vast array of essentially the same thing only packaged in
a way that requires the stores to provide shelf space. Hewlett Packard
is a marketing machine, never forget that. They didn't really create
all those incompatible ink tanks just so the consumer would have a
supply and demand problem as much as to crowd out the competition.

And, don't be naive. HP certainly could have designed a small subset
of ink tanks that fit a huge array of printers. It is in your best
interest but not their best interest to do so.

Again, your naivette shows through on your ink level sensing question.
You think HP can't sense the ink level? From Palo Alto they can sense
that you are refilling your ink tank with better and cheaper ink than
what they want to sell you. Of course HP could have sensed the actual
ink level! They don't want to.

They could also have made the ink tank clear so you could tell how
much ink was left. Guess why the ink tanks in HP printers are NEVER
clear? (HINT: Read Marketing 101, chapter 3 again.)

Get a grip! The entire reason their are so many HP ink tank formats
out there is pure marketing. It has nothing to do with the
"justification" Bob gave it. It sounds nice. But, it doesn't stand the
test of truth. Same with Bob's answer on the ink level sensing. Sorry
Bob, you did try to back up HP like a good soldier and your story
sounds very convincing to an unassuming consumer, but nobody really
believes HP is doing all these shenanigans to protect either the
printer or the consumer.
 
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Arthur Entlich
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Posts: n/a
 
      10-25-2006
The two URLS in your posting appear to be the same one. Can you repost
the one that's missing?

Art

Bob Headrick wrote:

>
> "Ben Myers" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>
>> Positive answers to most of the questions asked above would rebuild the
>> credibility of inkjet printer (and INK!) manufacturers and introduce
>> at least
>> some transparency into the whole business of figuring out which
>> printer to buy.
>> Oops! I forgot. I'm trying to be rational again, like Mr. Spock
>> and Mr.
>> Data.

>
>
> If you were actually trying to be rational you would have actually read
> the web sites I provided, which answer many of your questions:
> http://h10060.www1.hp.com/pageyield/...kjetYield.html
> for the general methodology and
> http://h10060.www1.hp.com/pageyield/...kjetYield.html
> for specific printer yields.
>
> It appears you have an axe to grind with HP, perhaps related to your
> termination of employment with them a few years ago. I have a
> suggestion - move on.
>
> - Bob Headrick
>
>
>
>

 
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Arthur Entlich
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Posts: n/a
 
      10-25-2006
OK, Bob I have the correct one now...

>
> Oops, I gave the wrong link. See
> http://h10060.www1.hp.com/pageyield/us/en/index.html and it can be found
> by a search for "page yield" at http://www.hp.com
>

 
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Ben Myers
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-25-2006
Hear! Hear! Well put! ... Ben Myers

On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 07:15:54 GMT, Jack Linthicum <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

>On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 23:29:14 -0700, "Bob Headrick" <(E-Mail Removed)>
>wrote:
>
>>HP has been making inkjet's since 1970-something and for the most part
>>all the cartridges are still available.

>
>Maybe so, but so has Kellog and Post cereals. In Marketing 101, you
>learn to create slight, yet incompatible, variations on the product so
>as to gain shelf space at the consumer outlet at the expense of the
>competition. The whole point is to squeeze out the competition by
>providing a vast array of essentially the same thing only packaged in
>a way that requires the stores to provide shelf space. Hewlett Packard
>is a marketing machine, never forget that. They didn't really create
>all those incompatible ink tanks just so the consumer would have a
>supply and demand problem as much as to crowd out the competition.
>
>And, don't be naive. HP certainly could have designed a small subset
>of ink tanks that fit a huge array of printers. It is in your best
>interest but not their best interest to do so.
>
>Again, your naivette shows through on your ink level sensing question.
>You think HP can't sense the ink level? From Palo Alto they can sense
>that you are refilling your ink tank with better and cheaper ink than
>what they want to sell you. Of course HP could have sensed the actual
>ink level! They don't want to.
>
>They could also have made the ink tank clear so you could tell how
>much ink was left. Guess why the ink tanks in HP printers are NEVER
>clear? (HINT: Read Marketing 101, chapter 3 again.)
>
>Get a grip! The entire reason their are so many HP ink tank formats
>out there is pure marketing. It has nothing to do with the
>"justification" Bob gave it. It sounds nice. But, it doesn't stand the
>test of truth. Same with Bob's answer on the ink level sensing. Sorry
>Bob, you did try to back up HP like a good soldier and your story
>sounds very convincing to an unassuming consumer, but nobody really
>believes HP is doing all these shenanigans to protect either the
>printer or the consumer.

 
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Jack Linthicum
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-25-2006
On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 01:10:05 GMT, Gary Tait <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:
>... heck of a lot more reliable would be an actual low-ink
>sensor, similar in function to Canon's optical prism. It could be a PTC
>thermistor in the ink


Or it could be as simple as a clear plastic ink tank.

If HP really wanted to provide the true ink level, they (easily could
have and certainly would have.

I can't blame them. HP probably makes more money on ink than on the
printer. They sell for fifty dollars what costs them less than five
dollars to manufacture and which someone else could replace for about
five dollars retail (ink is nothing special, boys and girls).

If your motor vehicle had a low-fluid level sensor such as the one in
the HP printers in question, your engine wouldn't last a year! So
please don't believe the nice sounding yet convoluted phrasing with
vague meaning that you read in the HP literature.

HP is a marketing machine who has determined to make a profit (can't
blam 'em) at your expense. Don't buy HP and your problem is solved!
Or, research WHICH PRINTERS can easily be refilled and buy THEM.

Vote with your dollars boys and girls!
PS The question is WHICH COLOR PRINTERS CAN EASILY BE REFILLED?
 
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Jack Linthicum
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-25-2006
On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 14:52:01 GMT, Aluxe <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

>My hypothesis is that you must turn off the ink-drop counting each time to
>restart the hpojd145 printer. If you disagree with my hypothesis (which you
>are welcome to do, but please provide facts), can you tell me how one would
>be able to check whether ink drop counting is on or off. The answer to that
>question would prove or disprove the hypothesis.
>
>Does _anyone_ in this printer group know if turning off the ink drop
>checking is temporary or if it lasts for a specified period or event?


I think maybe it's your removal of the ink tank to refill which is
causing the ink droplet counting to reset back to counting droplets.

But I don't know how to tell if the HP ink droplet counting is on at
any one moment in time - I'm sure others on this ng certainly do.
 
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Bob Headrick
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-25-2006

"Jack Linthicum" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 23:29:14 -0700, "Bob Headrick" <(E-Mail Removed)>
> wrote:
>
>>HP has been making inkjet's since 1970-something and for the most part
>>all the cartridges are still available.

>
> Maybe so, but so has Kellog and Post cereals. In Marketing 101, you
> learn to create slight, yet incompatible, variations on the product so
> as to gain shelf space at the consumer outlet at the expense of the
> competition.


Corn flakes have not changed much, inks do change. If HP still used the
inks they had decades ago they would be left competively in the dust.
When the competition was 9 pin dot matrix printers the requirements for
black printing was not very demanding. In those days dye based black
ink was OK and color was not even required. Today the competition is
laser printing or commercial printing. Do you really believe that the
ink and printhead technology did not need to change?

> And, don't be naive. HP certainly could have designed a small subset
> of ink tanks that fit a huge array of printers. It is in your best
> interest but not their best interest to do so.


But HP does use their ink tanks in a huge array of printers. As
mentioned before, the #45 black cartridge was designed into hundreds and
hundreds of printer models over most of a decade. The recent #95 series
of color cartridges were used in dozens of printer models ranging from
small battery powered single cartridge photo printers to all-in-one
units, desktop printers and super B size printers. On the other hand,
those cartridges are not suitable for large format printers, just as the
ink system with 400mL ink tanks are not suitable for a portable printer.

> Again, your naivette shows through on your ink level sensing question.
> You think HP can't sense the ink level? From Palo Alto they can sense
> that you are refilling your ink tank with better and cheaper ink than
> what they want to sell you. Of course HP could have sensed the actual
> ink level! They don't want to.


You demonstrate you ignorance of the technical issues with the above.
Your statement has absolutely no basis in reality.

> Get a grip! The entire reason their are so many HP ink tank formats
> out there is pure marketing. It has nothing to do with the
> "justification" Bob gave it. It sounds nice. But, it doesn't stand the
> test of truth. Same with Bob's answer on the ink level sensing.


There is a very tiny bit of truth in this statement - there are more ink
tank formats because of marketing issues, but the biggest marketing
issue is the fact that there are different customer requirements and
different competitive pressures. If the market had not changed since
the 70's then the original ThinkJet cartridges would be all that is
needed. There really are different customer requirements that require
different solutions.

As for ink level sensing, I have been involved in the past with ink
sensing development and can assure you that it is not a simple process.
It is easy enough to say "just make the bodies clear and use a prism
like Canon", but that solution does not work for foam based cartridges.
Trying to measure ink level electrically or thermally is also fraught
with technical challenges and inaccuracies.

In closing I would also like to print out that different printers have
different requirements and systems. Printers that use cartridges with
printheads built in provide low on ink indications but do not disable
printing or otherwise impede printing. For printers with replaceable
but separate printheads the requirements are more stringent, as running
a printhead without ink could damage the printhead resulting in more
costly replacement. Printers with completely fixed (non-replaceable)
printheads are even more restrictive, as running out of ink could result
in printer service required. For the first case a simple (and
inexpensive) drop counting can be adequate, for the latter more
extensive (and expensive) methods must be used.

I have said enough on this subject and will only respond to further
posts on this topic to correct egregious misstatements.

- Bob Headrick, MS MVP Printing/Imaging


 
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Arthur Entlich
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-26-2006
A few comments.

Although I have to agree that almost all the "features" in ink
cartridge technology that have been introduced principally for the
benefit of the manufacturers (and I mean all of them, HP is not alone in
this, by any means), I'm not sure it is for shelf space in stores.

These days, beside the extended warranty business, the principal way big
box and tech stores make money is not sales of the products, but by
renting shelf space. Ever notice that certain brands are displayed in
certain locations in stores, and that all the stores in the chain tend
to use the same locations or percentage of their shelf space for
specific products/brands? Smaller companies usually get the lower darker
locations. HP pays a fortune to rent the best spaces, whether it is for
produce or ink cartridges.

The other reason for continual new ink cartridge designs, besides
confounding the consumer from being able to refill them, is because it
limits how many cartridges are out their being reused by 3rd party
refillers. In the case of more disposable cartridges (like Epson and
Canon) its to keep the 3rd party cartridge designers in the dark and
scrambling to create the latest 3rd party cartridge.

Over the years, the inkjet and now laser printer companies have spent
minor fortunes in design and engineering costs to create printer systems
that can detect and reject non-OEM cartridges. They also incorporate
and patent systems which have secondary "features" which supposedly are
there to provide user conveniences when the more likely purpose is to
require anyone copying the cartridge design to infringe on the
manufacturer's patents, so they can sue and create injunctions on the
3rd party manufacture of those cartridges.

I wish the legislative and judiciary would smarten up and put an end to
these methods of curtailing competition in the refill ink/toner
cartridge marketplace. We'll probably have to wait for the EU to do it,
since the US and Canada governments are too tied to tax revenues from
these industries to do the right thing.

Art


Ben Myers wrote:
> Hear! Hear! Well put! ... Ben Myers
>
> On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 07:15:54 GMT, Jack Linthicum <(E-Mail Removed)>
> wrote:
>
>
>>On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 23:29:14 -0700, "Bob Headrick" <(E-Mail Removed)>
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>>HP has been making inkjet's since 1970-something and for the most part
>>>all the cartridges are still available.

>>
>>Maybe so, but so has Kellog and Post cereals. In Marketing 101, you
>>learn to create slight, yet incompatible, variations on the product so
>>as to gain shelf space at the consumer outlet at the expense of the
>>competition. The whole point is to squeeze out the competition by
>>providing a vast array of essentially the same thing only packaged in
>>a way that requires the stores to provide shelf space. Hewlett Packard
>>is a marketing machine, never forget that. They didn't really create
>>all those incompatible ink tanks just so the consumer would have a
>>supply and demand problem as much as to crowd out the competition.
>>
>>And, don't be naive. HP certainly could have designed a small subset
>>of ink tanks that fit a huge array of printers. It is in your best
>>interest but not their best interest to do so.
>>
>>Again, your naivette shows through on your ink level sensing question.
>>You think HP can't sense the ink level? From Palo Alto they can sense
>>that you are refilling your ink tank with better and cheaper ink than
>>what they want to sell you. Of course HP could have sensed the actual
>>ink level! They don't want to.
>>
>>They could also have made the ink tank clear so you could tell how
>>much ink was left. Guess why the ink tanks in HP printers are NEVER
>>clear? (HINT: Read Marketing 101, chapter 3 again.)
>>
>>Get a grip! The entire reason their are so many HP ink tank formats
>>out there is pure marketing. It has nothing to do with the
>>"justification" Bob gave it. It sounds nice. But, it doesn't stand the
>>test of truth. Same with Bob's answer on the ink level sensing. Sorry
>>Bob, you did try to back up HP like a good soldier and your story
>>sounds very convincing to an unassuming consumer, but nobody really
>>believes HP is doing all these shenanigans to protect either the
>>printer or the consumer.

 
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