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Re: HP OJ d145 color ink out error replace color ink cartridge message

 
 
Ben Myers
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      10-23-2006
Though probably not trickery, it is clear that neither HP nor any of the other
inkjet printers exactly want to publicize the fact that ink cartridges are teeny
tiny in capacity. None of these companies would ever buy in to a
consumer-oriented standard that states right there on the box and in the spec
sheet how many pages one can print from the often even teenier and tinier
"starter" cartridges that come with a printer AND how many pages can be printed
with replacement cartridges sold afterward. Then people could actually compute
cost per printed page and realize how expensive the el cheapo inkjet printers
really are. Not to mention the pain in the ass inconvenience of having to run
the the nearest Staples every other week to buy still more expensive cartridges.

HP was on the losing end of a class action lawsuit a number of years ago for the
design of its lamentable 1100 and similar laser printers, the ones with the
small footprint and vertical sheet feed. Only the lawsuit forced Hp to offer a
free kit to ameliorate a clear defect in the design, causing lots of paper jams.
This was probably not trickery, but just plain inept engineering design and
product testing before making the product available for sale. But when a
company is forced by lawsuit to do something, one has to wonder about trickery.

.... Ben Myers

On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 23:59:02 -0500, Tony <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>I agree, it does depend on what is meant by trickery.
>Providing small cartridges is something that I find annoying but I wouldn't
>call it trickery since the detail is readily available from a variety of
>sources.
>Deliberately designing a printer and/or cartridges to thwart fair competition
>gets close to my definition of trickery.
>Trickery, in my opinion, is designing a printer that will not perform as
>promised and a refusal to put it right. I have rarely heard of a case where HP
>are guilty of this but I can provide a few examples where I think other
>manufacturers are indeed guilty of this.
>Tony
>
>Ben Myers <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>It all depends on what one means by the word "trickery." Just like the
>>meaning of the words "is" and "sex". Is it trickery to design inkjet printers
>>with small cartridges that need regular and expensive replacement? Is it
>>trickery to embed circuits in the cartridges to prevent refilling?
>>
>>... Ben Myers
>>
>>On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 02:13:28 -0500, Tony <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>
>>>Aluxe <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>>What I think happens, at least with my HP printer, is that you can only
>>>>TEMPORARILY turn off the color ink drop counting!
>>>>
>>>>Someone at HP can tell us if this is true ... but what I think happens is
>>>>you turn off the color and black ink checking with the double-arrow 456 and
>>>>double-arrow 389 sequence ... BUT ... (and this is a big but) ...
>>>>
>>>>What you think you turned off, secretly turns itself back on the very next
>>>>time you reboot your HP printer! Yup.
>>>>
>>>>What seems to happen is:
>>>>- You turn off color and black ink checking
>>>>- You print a few pages and then at some point, power down the printer
>>>>- When you power the printer back up, the ink checking is back on
>>>>- But you don't know that (how can you tell)
>>>>- So, even though you fill the cartridges to the brim
>>>>- The printer is counting drops and saying it's empty at some point
>>>>- Notice that if HP REALLY wanted to tell how much ink was there
>>>>- They'd use a more reliable and cheaper method (of which there are many)
>>>>
>>>>Point is, the system is rigged so that you have to turn off the ink drop
>>>>checking EVERY SINGLE TIME you turn the HP printer on.
>>>>
>>>>If you ask me, HP printers aren't worth the hassle!
>>>
>>>The printer is simply protecting the printhead (your printhead). If ink is
>>>not
>>>supplied to the printhead then it will fail, this is true of all inkjet
>>>printheads regardless of who the manufacturer is. This printer uses separate
>>>printheads and ink containers, if it used combined heads and ink containers
>>>then this would not be an issue.
>>>It seems to me that you are making a slightly paranoid assumption. HP does
>>>not,
>>>to my knowledge, build trickery into their printers.
>>>Tony

 
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Aluxe
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      10-23-2006
On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 23:38:20 -0500, Tony wrote:
> I think your hypothesis is not founded in fact. If the printer reports ink out
> or ink low it is quite simply because it believes that to be the case.


Hi Tony,

I thank you for your expert help.

The fundamental quesion is whether turning off the black and color ink drop
checking on the HP ojd145 via the "double-arrow 4 5 6" and "double-arrow 7
8 9" respectively - is temporary (i.e., until the next power on cycle).

My hypothesis is that you must turn off the ink-drop counting each time to
restart the hpojd145 printer. If you disagree with my hypothesis (which you
are welcome to do, but please provide facts), can you tell me how one would
be able to check whether ink drop counting is on or off. The answer to that
question would prove or disprove the hypothesis.

Does _anyone_ in this printer group know if turning off the ink drop
checking is temporary or if it lasts for a specified period or event?
 
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Aluxe
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      10-23-2006
On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 08:37:13 -0400, Ben Myers wrote:
> None of these companies would ever buy in to a
> consumer-oriented standard that states right there on the box and in the spec
> sheet how many pages one can print from the often even teenier and tinier
> "starter" cartridges that come with a printer AND how many pages can be printed
> with replacement cartridges sold afterward. Then people could actually compute
> cost per printed page and realize how expensive the el cheapo inkjet printers
> really are. Not to mention the pain in the ass inconvenience of having to run
> the the nearest Staples every other week to buy still more expensive cartridges.



Hi Ben,

Thanks for the welcome comments as I agree with your EPA figure of "cost
per standard page" where the standard page is (perhaps not perfectly)
defined (but it would work - just like it does in other products). It would
be nice to see this as any engineer could look at an HP printer and say
"Geez, that ink tank is too small for that printer".

And, I understand the point about the printheads not drying out. But, of
course, that is a specious argument because the ink tanks are full so
there's no chance of the printheads drying out. Besides, I've boiled many a
printhead as part of my regular maintenance procedure so I'm fully aware of
the fact that not only should the sponges in the ink tanks never be allowed
to dry, but, the printheads must be kept clean of clogs and particles as
well as wet with good quality ink from a printer supply shop.

And I agree that better ink from a printer-supply shop costs about 1/10 of
what Staples charges for HP14 ink tanks where just one 20 ounce bottle of
each color lasts the lifetime of the printer (in my case anyway) - and,
it's both waterpresistant and uv-protected - two critical archival
requirements the inferior quality HP OEM HP14 inks lack.

However, the fundamental question is still whether the hypothesis is true
that the ink-drop counting of the hewlett packard officejet d145 printer
turns back on in all cases after the machine is powered up.

A test of that hypothesis could easily be performed if we knew how to query
the hpojd145 printer to ask if it is counting ink drops at any particular
moment.

Does anyone in expert printer land know the answer to these two fundamental
HP questions?
 
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Bob Headrick
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      10-23-2006

"Ben Myers" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> Though probably not trickery, it is clear that neither HP nor any of
> the
> other inkjet printers exactly want to publicize the fact that ink
> cartridges
> are teeny tiny in capacity. None of these companies would ever
> buy in to a consumer-oriented standard that states right there on the
> box
> and in the spec sheet how many pages one can print from the often even
> teenier and tinier "starter" cartridges that come with a printer AND
> how
> many pages can be printed with replacement cartridges sold afterward.


This is not true - the industry has been working for a few years to get
an ISO standard test method to have an "apples to apples" comparison of
print yields. See
http://h10060.www1.hp.com/pageyield/...kjetYield.html
for the general methodology and
http://h10060.www1.hp.com/pageyield/...kjetYield.html
for specific printer yields.

- Bob Headrick, MS MVP Printing/Imaging

 
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Gary Tait
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      10-24-2006
Aluxe <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
news:(E-Mail Removed):


> If you, or anyone else, has a better hypothesis as to what this "Color
> Ink Out" or "Black Ink Out" error is indicating, that would be useful.


It is indicating that the ink droplet counter is at zero. When you put a
genuine new cart in, the count gets set to an estimated value
(or set to zero where printing increments the dropcounter), with allowances
for cleaning and such.

Under ideal conditions, the counter will show empty when the ink has nearly
been expelled. The estimation is conservative, so the user doesn't actually
run out of ink.
 
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Gary Tait
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      10-24-2006
"Bob Headrick" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in news:12jlqvqs5d1c0c3
@corp.supernews.com:

> I would love to hear about a "more reliable and cheaper method" of
> detecting the amount of ink remaining.... I suspect you do not have a
> clue about how these things work, or why the printer should/would care
> about remaining ink.
>
> - Bob Headrick, MS MVP Printing/Imaging


Cheaper, no, but a heck of a lot more reliable would be an actual low-ink
sensor, similar in function to Canon's optical prism. It could be a PTC
thermistor in the ink (pass a current through, if it is in ink the ink woul
cool it, keeping the resistance low, and dry it would heat up to a high
resistance), or actually optical (if Canon doesn't have a patent on that),
or maybe directly sense current passing through the ink, if present.
 
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Ben Myers
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      10-24-2006
Would it be unkind to say that an ISO standard for measuring print yields is a
well-kept secret? Is there a clearly defined methodology for the consumer to
determine cost per page, based on the ISO standard-under-development? Would HP
or Epson or Canon or Lexmark provide cost per page (consumables only)
information in store displays, on printer cartons, or on their various web
sites? Would any or all of these manufacturers consent to having an
independent test lab produce and distribute the results?

The inkjet printer industry at large, not just HP, continues to take a lot of
well-justified flak for weak (I'm being kind again) disclosure of cost per page
information, extremely expensive cartridge costs, shipping tiny "starter"
cartridges with many models of printers, and (some manufacturers only) creating
barriers to competitive 3rd party cartridge companies. In short, you never
know what you are getting when you buy an inkjet printer, until it has sucked
your billfold dry buying cartridges.

Positive answers to most of the questions asked above would rebuild the
credibility of inkjet printer (and INK!) manufacturers and introduce at least
some transparency into the whole business of figuring out which printer to buy.
Oops! I forgot. I'm trying to be rational again, like Mr. Spock and Mr.
Data.

Tell Mr. Hurd I said so. At least he is more likely to listen than Carly.

.... Ben Myers

On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 12:23:45 -0700, "Bob Headrick" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>
>"Ben Myers" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>news:(E-Mail Removed).. .
>> Though probably not trickery, it is clear that neither HP nor any of
>> the
>> other inkjet printers exactly want to publicize the fact that ink
>> cartridges
>> are teeny tiny in capacity. None of these companies would ever
>> buy in to a consumer-oriented standard that states right there on the
>> box
>> and in the spec sheet how many pages one can print from the often even
>> teenier and tinier "starter" cartridges that come with a printer AND
>> how
>> many pages can be printed with replacement cartridges sold afterward.

>
>This is not true - the industry has been working for a few years to get
>an ISO standard test method to have an "apples to apples" comparison of
>print yields. See
>http://h10060.www1.hp.com/pageyield/...kjetYield.html
>for the general methodology and
>http://h10060.www1.hp.com/pageyield/...kjetYield.html
>for specific printer yields.
>
>- Bob Headrick, MS MVP Printing/Imaging

 
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Bob Headrick
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Posts: n/a
 
      10-24-2006

"Ben Myers" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> Positive answers to most of the questions asked above would rebuild
> the
> credibility of inkjet printer (and INK!) manufacturers and introduce
> at least
> some transparency into the whole business of figuring out which
> printer to buy.
> Oops! I forgot. I'm trying to be rational again, like Mr. Spock
> and Mr.
> Data.


If you were actually trying to be rational you would have actually read
the web sites I provided, which answer many of your questions:
http://h10060.www1.hp.com/pageyield/...kjetYield.html
for the general methodology and
http://h10060.www1.hp.com/pageyield/...kjetYield.html
for specific printer yields.

It appears you have an axe to grind with HP, perhaps related to your
termination of employment with them a few years ago. I have a
suggestion - move on.

- Bob Headrick




 
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Ben Myers
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      10-24-2006
I read both pages referred to by the cited URLs. Oops! They point to the same
page. One web page does not exactly bring out of obscurity HP's (and others,
of course) efforts to set a standard, although the web page provides a decent
explanation. All I can say is that it's about time for a standards effort. How
long have color inkjet printers been in use?

Still, I'll persist. Does HP or ANY other printer company make it easy for
people to make cost per page comparisons for inkjet printers? Heck no. Not
even close. It's not very public. Again, where is this information
"published"? If it's off on some hard-to-find web pages, it's not very public.
I'm not beating up on only HP here. I'm beating up ALL the printer companies
for inkjet printers with very high operating costs. It's simply that HP is the
only one with a usenet newsgroup. Canon, Lexmark, Epson do not have usenet
newsgroups.

I do computer and network sales and service work, and all my clients bitch about
having to go to Staples or whereever all too often to buy expensive replacement
inkjet cartridges. I don't know what to tell them, because no brand stands out
over any other. This is the computer industry complaint I hear most
frequently. The inkjet printer industry is a collective embarrassment shared
by all the printer manufacturers, not just HP. I use an HP LaserJet myself,
eschewing expensive color.

As for other HP products, notably computers, I have found HP computers difficult
to repair compared to some other brands. (As an example, recently I had to
replace a failed power supply on an HP Pavilion, so I needed to do almost a
complete disassembly to remove the power supply from a cramped mATX chassis not
designed for easy accessibility. Took darn near an hour, and not because I am
inept. By comparsion, with most other brands, changing out a power supply is a
matter of removing 4 screws and disconnecting all the connectors, slapping in a
replacement and hooking it up. 10 minutes max.) I have found the HP web site
to be wanting for useful technical information compared to some other brands. I
find Dell and Lenovo/IBM to be easy to deal with re. spare parts, technical
specs, maintenance manuals, etc. Far easier than HP. Gateway/eMachines is a
real mixed bag, overall not quite as good as HP. Sony and Toshiba are next to
impossible to deal with. So from my persepective, I have to place HP somewhere
in the middle of all the computer equipment I have to work on.

I never worked for HP, Compaq, or DEC in my entire life. Never tried to. Never
saw or had an opportunity to. Interviewed with DEC once way back when. Went
elsewhere, to another company with a similar failed line of proprietary
computers. Sorry, no sour grapes here, just an axe to grind whenever I peceive
that a large company (or large companies) are taking advantage of individual
buyers, a phenomenon not unique to the computer industry in a country that has
evolved with a distinct anti-consumer, pro-big business climate... Ben Myers

On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 21:04:32 -0700, "Bob Headrick" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>
>"Ben Myers" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>news:(E-Mail Removed).. .
>> Positive answers to most of the questions asked above would rebuild
>> the
>> credibility of inkjet printer (and INK!) manufacturers and introduce
>> at least
>> some transparency into the whole business of figuring out which
>> printer to buy.
>> Oops! I forgot. I'm trying to be rational again, like Mr. Spock
>> and Mr.
>> Data.

>
>If you were actually trying to be rational you would have actually read
>the web sites I provided, which answer many of your questions:
>http://h10060.www1.hp.com/pageyield/...kjetYield.html
>for the general methodology and
>http://h10060.www1.hp.com/pageyield/...kjetYield.html
>for specific printer yields.
>
>It appears you have an axe to grind with HP, perhaps related to your
>termination of employment with them a few years ago. I have a
>suggestion - move on.
>
> - Bob Headrick
>
>
>

 
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Bob Headrick
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-24-2006

"Ben Myers" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>I read both pages referred to by the cited URLs. Oops! They point to
>the same
> page. One web page does not exactly bring out of obscurity HP's (and
> others,
> of course) efforts to set a standard, although the web page provides a
> decent
> explanation. All I can say is that it's about time for a standards
> effort. How
> long have color inkjet printers been in use?
>
> Still, I'll persist. Does HP or ANY other printer company make it
> easy for
> people to make cost per page comparisons for inkjet printers? Heck
> no. Not
> even close. It's not very public. Again, where is this information
> "published"? If it's off on some hard-to-find web pages, it's not
> very public.


Oops, I gave the wrong link. See
http://h10060.www1.hp.com/pageyield/us/en/index.html and it can be found
by a search for "page yield" at http://www.hp.com

As for not being very public, that is changing. There is a rather large
effort underway to provide yield information for all new HP printers as
they are introduced. As the ISO standard is ratified I would expect the
information will become more pervasive, both in reviews and marketing
material. Prior to a standard different manufacturers could (and did)
have widely different methods and definitions of page yield. For
example, 5% coverage was pretty much "standard" for black text, but one
manufacturer defined the 5% as based on an A size page with 1" margins
all the way around - so the 5% area was really only for a 6.5"x9" page.
With an agreed standard customers will really be able to make more
informed comparison.

As for taking a *long* time to get this in place, that is true. How
many years were cars in existence before the EPA mileage estimates
became widespread? Page yield is a very complex issue, depending on a
large number of variables. The standard as it is being released will
give "highway" mileage, the yield if the printer is pretty much run
continuously emptying the cartridge in one sitting. "Real" customers
have a much different usage model, with many printing only a few pages a
day and taking months or a year to empty a cartridge. Manufacturers,
especially the smaller ones, are not interested in a test that would
take months to run as this would be prohibitively expensive. Similarly
printers that use a large amount of ink for servicing could have high
"continuous printing" yields but relatively poor real world yields.
Manufacturers would not be interested in publishing the poorer real
world results. See
http://h10060.www1.hp.com/pageyield/...cyArticle.html,
particularly the graph in the center of the article.

Regards,
Bob Headrick, MS MVP Printing/Imaging


 
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