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does this mean I need a flash unit too?

 
 
JimO
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      10-16-2006
I just got a Nikon f/2.8 70-200 to use with my D50. The lens is fantastic.
At least now, I can shoot football games at night. What I would really like
to be able to do is freeze action. In a football game it doesn't really
matter but in a volleyball or basketball game, I'd like to be as discreet as
possible and not use a flash. The shutter speeds required to freeze action
just result in a very dark picture or complete blackness. Small town high
school gyms and football fields are not very well list (at least for a
camera).

So, my dilema is... am I going to have to bite the bullet and get a flash
unit? If so, what kind should I get. I noticed a guy at the football game
on Friday had, what I thought, was a strobe flash mounted on his camera. I
didn't get a chance to ask him about it, though.

I'm pretty much a newbie at this and I have other beginner issues as well.


 
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Steve Wolfe
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      10-16-2006
>I just got a Nikon f/2.8 70-200 to use with my D50. The lens is fantastic.
>At least now, I can shoot football games at night. What I would really
>like to be able to do is freeze action. In a football game it doesn't
>really matter but in a volleyball or basketball game, I'd like to be as
>discreet as possible and not use a flash. The shutter speeds required to
>freeze action just result in a very dark picture or complete blackness.
>Small town high school gyms and football fields are not very well list (at
>least for a camera).
>
> So, my dilema is... am I going to have to bite the bullet and get a flash
> unit? If so, what kind should I get. I noticed a guy at the football
> game on Friday had, what I thought, was a strobe flash mounted on his
> camera. I didn't get a chance to ask him about it, though.
>
> I'm pretty much a newbie at this and I have other beginner issues as well.


If you get a flash, you're still going to be too far away to use it
unmodified, but a "Better Beamer" will give you the reach you need, they
work amazingly well. However, there's a very good chance that you aren't
allowed to use such a rig, you should probably check whether it's alright
before you go out and buy one. Otherwise, set your aperture at f/2.8, and
crank up that ISO!

steve


 
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Joseph Meehan
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      10-16-2006
JimO wrote:
> I just got a Nikon f/2.8 70-200 to use with my D50. The lens is
> fantastic. At least now, I can shoot football games at night. What I
> would really like to be able to do is freeze action. In a football
> game it doesn't really matter but in a volleyball or basketball game,
> I'd like to be as discreet as possible and not use a flash. The
> shutter speeds required to freeze action just result in a very dark
> picture or complete blackness. Small town high school gyms and
> football fields are not very well list (at least for a camera).
>
> So, my dilema is... am I going to have to bite the bullet and get a
> flash unit? If so, what kind should I get. I noticed a guy at the
> football game on Friday had, what I thought, was a strobe flash
> mounted on his camera. I didn't get a chance to ask him about it,
> though.
> I'm pretty much a newbie at this and I have other beginner issues as
> well.


I will make two suggestions.

First if you are going to get a flash that is going to do any real good,
you are going to need a really powerful flash.

Second, in my opinion images made without flash, look better than with
flash. With flash you loose some of the effect of motion and I don't like
the ghost effect you often get with flash under these conditions.

Last, when photographing an event, I don't like to become part of the
event. The best compliment I can get is someone commenting on my good
pictures and adding that they did not even know someone what photographing
the event.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit


 
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Scott Schuckert
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      10-16-2006
In article <M5AYg.9937$(E-Mail Removed). net>, JimO
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> So, my dilema is... am I going to have to bite the bullet and get a flash
> unit? If so, what kind should I get. I noticed a guy at the football game
> on Friday had, what I thought, was a strobe flash mounted on his camera. I
> didn't get a chance to ask him about it, though.


The amount of flash illumination you'll need at a normal distance from
an outdoor, night time game makes the project impractical. In addition
to the sheer distance, you'll need MUCH more light than a simple Guide
Number calculation would indicate, because you have no walls or ceiling
reflecting it back towards the subject. The same situation would make
the flash lighting very harsh and unpleasant.

Concentrators such as the Better Beamer would help, but not enough -
they're primarily for fill illumination, and the BB in particular is
intended for 300mm lenses or longer.

BTW, 99.9% of the people you see using flash at events like this are
operating in blissful ignorance (or have flashes they don't know how to
turn off) The flash isn't doing anything useful.

Just crank up the ISO as high as you can and see what happens.
 
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Bill Hilton
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      10-16-2006
> Steve Wolfe wrote:
>
> If you get a flash, you're still going to be too far away to use it
> unmodified, but a "Better Beamer" will give you the reach you need, they
> work amazingly well.


The Better Beamer type devices concentrate the flash field of coverage
quite a bit and with full frame they will vignette at focal lengths
under 300 mm, so probably not a good idea with his 70-200 mm lens ...
even with the 'crop factor' he's right at the vignette limit at his
longest focal length and won't be able to use this lens at all if he's
zoomed under 200 mm.

Bill
(used a Beamer for years but usually with 500 mm or greater lenses)

 
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Steve Wolfe
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      10-16-2006
>> If you get a flash, you're still going to be too far away to use it
>> unmodified, but a "Better Beamer" will give you the reach you need, they
>> work amazingly well.

>
> The Better Beamer type devices concentrate the flash field of coverage
> quite a bit and with full frame they will vignette at focal lengths
> under 300 mm, so probably not a good idea with his 70-200 mm lens ...
> even with the 'crop factor' he's right at the vignette limit at his
> longest focal length and won't be able to use this lens at all if he's
> zoomed under 200 mm.


With a 200mm lens on my Reb XT, the better beamer doesn't quite fill the
frame vertically, but does horizontally. So far, in shooting various things
(but only once for football), the falloff to the top and bottom haven't
bothered me. If he really wanted full coverage, he could set his flash-head
at a sub-optimal distance, which (according to tests I've seen, but never
bothered to try) can widen the beam a bit.

steve


 
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Eric Babula
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      10-16-2006
"JimO" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
news:M5AYg.9937$(E-Mail Removed) ink.net:

> I just got a Nikon f/2.8 70-200 to use with my D50. The lens is
> fantastic. At least now, I can shoot football games at night. What
> I would really like to be able to do is freeze action. In a
> football game it doesn't really matter but in a volleyball or
> basketball game, I'd like to be as discreet as possible and not use
> a flash. The shutter speeds required to freeze action just result
> in a very dark picture or complete blackness. Small town high
> school gyms and football fields are not very well list (at least
> for a camera).
>
> So, my dilema is... am I going to have to bite the bullet and get a
> flash unit? If so, what kind should I get. I noticed a guy at the
> football game on Friday had, what I thought, was a strobe flash
> mounted on his camera. I didn't get a chance to ask him about it,
> though.
>
> I'm pretty much a newbie at this and I have other beginner issues
> as well.
>
>
>


I've been asking similar questions to yours. I have yet to buy the dSLR,
but am also looking at the Nikon D50 pretty seriously. You can Google my
name in rec.photo.digital and see the responses to all my questions.

It looks like the most popular response to my questions about indoor
volleyball is to get a better piece of glass. The 85mm f1.8 was a
popular choice among the people who responded to my questions.
Basically, you want to have a fast lens. Your lens is f2.8 - is that all
the way thru 200mm? Seems that most people suggest going with an f1.8,
or maybe even an f1.4 for this situation.

Well, instead of me blabbing about something I know little of, just
check out my recent posts about the subject, and read what the others
have said. Maybe there's a way to get your lens to work well enough,
without using flash. I have no idea. I'm a newbie, too.

Other than that, how do you like the D50?

Good luck!

--
Eric Babula
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA



 
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Andrew Crabtree
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      10-16-2006

"JimO" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:M5AYg.9937$(E-Mail Removed) ink.net...
>I just got a Nikon f/2.8 70-200 to use with my D50. The lens is fantastic.
>At least now, I can shoot football games at night. What I would really
>like to be able to do is freeze action. In a football game it doesn't
>really matter but in a volleyball or basketball game, I'd like to be as
>discreet as possible and not use a flash. The shutter speeds required to
>freeze action just result in a very dark picture or complete blackness.

Generally speaking I find a shutter speed of around 1/250th is best for
volleyball. It has a tendency to freeze the players action, but allow some
movement of the ball to give a sense of the action involved. What
aperture, shutter, and ISO values are you using for your shots?

Here you can see the player is frozen nicely, but the ball appears to be
moving in at rocket speed.

http://andrewcrabtree.com/galleries/...s/_DSC2000.htm

Compare it to this shot where the shutter was much faster and the entire
image is frozen (I prefer the first one)

http://andrewcrabtree.com/galleries/...s/_DSC2018.htm

Nikon doesn't make any zooms faster than f2.8. Try boosting the ISO to
400/800/1600 and shoot at f2.8 and see if you can get shutter speeds fast
enough. You could also try the 85/1.4 which is 2 stops faster than your
zoom, but you are restricted to a single focal length.

I would avoid using a flash if at all possible.

Regards,
Andrew


 
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