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Leica M8

 
 
David J Taylor
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      09-16-2006
Paul Rubin wrote:
> "cjcampbell" <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:
>> I suppose some will be disappointed that the M8 has an APS-C sensor,

>
> It's larger than APS-C but smaller than full frame.
>
> Somewhat more puzzlingly, the M8 apparently has no anti-aliasing
> filter over the ccd. They say the fix aliasing through
> postprocessing, but that's theoretically impossible.


Yes, that was a "feature" of the Sigma DSLRs as well - pin-sharp pictures
packed out with aliasing artefacts! Very surprising coming from a
manufacturer with such a high reputation for quality as Leica. Perhaps
the microlenses have a poorer MTF and some cross-coupling (sounds
unlikely)?

David


 
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Paul Rubin
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      09-16-2006
"David J Taylor" <(E-Mail Removed)-this-bit.nor-this-part.uk> writes:
> > Somewhat more puzzlingly, the M8 apparently has no anti-aliasing
> > filter over the ccd. They say the fix aliasing through
> > postprocessing, but that's theoretically impossible.

>
> Yes, that was a "feature" of the Sigma DSLRs as well - pin-sharp pictures
> packed out with aliasing artefacts! Very surprising coming from a
> manufacturer with such a high reputation for quality as Leica. Perhaps
> the microlenses have a poorer MTF and some cross-coupling (sounds
> unlikely)?


Also sort of interesting (and not especially troubling): the M8 system
simply takes for granted that the lenses will vignette. The camera
firmware compensates for it and has info about the vignetting
characteristics of specific M lenses programmed into it. I don't know
what they'll do about updates as new lenses are released. I guess RAW
converters will also have to know about it. I do like that the raw
files use DNG format.

I'm disappointed that the camera uses a proprietary lithium ion
battery. Yeah, I know, I'm like a broken record about that, but it
seems especially disturbing with the M8, because of two factors. One,
M series cameras have traditionally stayed in service for a long time
(lots of M3's from the 1950's are still in use); and two, Leica's
camera business's existence has been precarious for many years and for
all we know, it might shut down at any moment. That's happened to
many other classic camera companies and hasn't caused too much problem
for camera owners, who can still get their Contaflexes serviced
without too much trouble. Repair shops still have NOS (new-old-stock)
parts around, or can cannibalize from broken cameras, or improvise.
It's a bigger problem with these batteries, which lose capacity after
a few years even if unused. The M8 won't be made in enough quantity
to lead to much aftermarket in batteries like there are for, say,
Canon cameras. In short, M8 owners may be hosed if they need a
battery a decade from now and Leica is gone.

It's sort of possible that the M8 actually uses a battery made for
some other camera. It will be nice if this is the case and the info
gets out. Batteries made in higher quantity are more likely to stay
in production.
 
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Andrew MacPherson
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      09-16-2006
http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed) () wrote:

> "It's a black cat, but its fur is mangy."


It's its if it's in its possession. It's it's if it is is what's implied.

Andrew McP... feeling too dizzy to check that properly.

PS This is nothing like a Leica thread any more!



 
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dj_nme@hotmail.com
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      09-16-2006

Andrew MacPherson wrote:

> (E-Mail Removed) () wrote:
>
> > "It's a black cat, but its fur is mangy."

>
> It's its if it's in its possession. It's it's if it is is what's implied.


_it's_ is a contraction of _it is_
_its_ is the neuter version of _his_ or _her_ .

> Andrew McP... feeling too dizzy to check that properly.
>
> PS This is nothing like a Leica thread any more!


It is just as a Leica thread _could be_ if Leicaphiles discussed
grammar instead of the minutia about the cameras from Leitz.

 
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dj_nme@hotmail.com
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      09-16-2006

Paul Rubin wrote:

> "David J Taylor" <(E-Mail Removed)-this-bit.nor-this-part.uk> writes:
> > > Somewhat more puzzlingly, the M8 apparently has no anti-aliasing
> > > filter over the ccd. They say the fix aliasing through
> > > postprocessing, but that's theoretically impossible.

> >
> > Yes, that was a "feature" of the Sigma DSLRs as well - pin-sharp pictures
> > packed out with aliasing artefacts! Very surprising coming from a
> > manufacturer with such a high reputation for quality as Leica. Perhaps
> > the microlenses have a poorer MTF and some cross-coupling (sounds
> > unlikely)?

>
> Also sort of interesting (and not especially troubling): the M8 system
> simply takes for granted that the lenses will vignette. The camera
> firmware compensates for it and has info about the vignetting
> characteristics of specific M lenses programmed into it. I don't know
> what they'll do about updates as new lenses are released. I guess RAW
> converters will also have to know about it. I do like that the raw
> files use DNG format.
>
> I'm disappointed that the camera uses a proprietary lithium ion
> battery. Yeah, I know, I'm like a broken record about that, but it
> seems especially disturbing with the M8, because of two factors. One,
> M series cameras have traditionally stayed in service for a long time
> (lots of M3's from the 1950's are still in use); and two, Leica's
> camera business's existence has been precarious for many years and for
> all we know, it might shut down at any moment. That's happened to
> many other classic camera companies and hasn't caused too much problem
> for camera owners, who can still get their Contaflexes serviced
> without too much trouble. Repair shops still have NOS (new-old-stock)
> parts around, or can cannibalize from broken cameras, or improvise.
> It's a bigger problem with these batteries, which lose capacity after
> a few years even if unused. The M8 won't be made in enough quantity
> to lead to much aftermarket in batteries like there are for, say,
> Canon cameras. In short, M8 owners may be hosed if they need a
> battery a decade from now and Leica is gone.
>
> It's sort of possible that the M8 actually uses a battery made for
> some other camera. It will be nice if this is the case and the info
> gets out. Batteries made in higher quantity are more likely to stay
> in production.


There should be a DC in socket for in-camera recharging.
It would seem to me that even if the battery itself was no longer
available, it should be relatively simple to create a suitable external
battery-pack (that could attach in place of the removable bottom plate
and only make the camera a little bit taller).
What would be worse is if there is an electronics failure of some kind,
without Leica still existing there would be almost no possiblity of a
repair being made.

 
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Neil Ellwood
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      09-16-2006
On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 01:28:58 -0700, dj_nme wrote:

> An example (off the top of my head) is: "It's a black cat, but its fur
> is mangy."

Push it off, then.
--
Neil
Delete l to reply
 
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Barry Pearson
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      09-17-2006
Paul Rubin wrote:
[snip]
> Somewhat more puzzlingly, the M8 apparently has no anti-aliasing
> filter over the ccd. They say the fix aliasing through
> postprocessing, but that's theoretically impossible.


They did the same with the DMR back for the R8/R9 about 15 months ago,
so they have some experience of the consequences.

I heard a DMR-back user say that Leica actually consulted their users
on this topic, and most (rightly or wrongly) said "don't put anything
in the path that would reduce sharpness". I've seen several results
(perhaps A3 or A3+) from the DMR back, and only one appeared to have a
problem with this, in a relatively small area, and I suspect could be
made visually-irrelevant in Photoshop. (The user concerned was fairly
new to Photoshop, and probably didn't know any useful techniques).

--
Barry Pearson
http://www.barry.pearson.name/photography/

 
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Gary Eickmeier
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      09-17-2006


(E-Mail Removed) wrote:

> Andrew MacPherson wrote:
>
>
>>(E-Mail Removed) () wrote:
>>
>>
>>> "It's a black cat, but its fur is mangy."

>>
>>It's its if it's in its possession. It's it's if it is is what's implied.

>
>
> _it's_ is a contraction of _it is_
> _its_ is the neuter version of _his_ or _her_ .
>
>
>>Andrew McP... feeling too dizzy to check that properly.
>>
>>PS This is nothing like a Leica thread any more!

>
>
> It is just as a Leica thread _could be_ if Leicaphiles discussed
> grammar instead of the minutia about the cameras from Leitz.


The point of using good English, or rather not using errors which
detract and distract from your message, is to stay on point. Some types
of errors actually make it confusing what the writer is trying to say.
Others are just distracting because they show ignorance and temporarily
take the reader's attention from the subject at hand. I don't criticize
simple typos, just the common errors that should have been learned in
grade school that are committed by native English speakers. And I don't
do it every time - just when it accumulates to a certain point.

Think about it for a second - if you are in the middle of a post from an
intelligent writer who is knowledgeable about the subject at hand - the
Leica M8 or anything - and he uses "to" for "too" or "there" for "their"
or some other simple silly error, doesn't that make you wince for a
second and detract from his point?

Gary Eickmeier
 
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Bart van der Wolf
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Posts: n/a
 
      09-17-2006

"Paul Rubin" <http://(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
SNIP
> Somewhat more puzzlingly, the M8 apparently has no anti-aliasing
> filter over the ccd. They say the fix aliasing through
> postprocessing, but that's theoretically impossible.


I assume the "fix" is a desaturation to at least reduce False color
moire. The jaggies are harder to avoid, and may require yet unknown
adaptive blurring. All other regular patterns larger than 2 pixels
will give some interesting artifacts.

Looking forward to test images,

--
Bart

 
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acl
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Posts: n/a
 
      09-17-2006

Bart van der Wolf wrote:
> "Paul Rubin" <http://(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> SNIP
> > Somewhat more puzzlingly, the M8 apparently has no anti-aliasing
> > filter over the ccd. They say the fix aliasing through
> > postprocessing, but that's theoretically impossible.

>
> I assume the "fix" is a desaturation to at least reduce False color
> moire. The jaggies are harder to avoid, and may require yet unknown
> adaptive blurring. All other regular patterns larger than 2 pixels
> will give some interesting artifacts.
>


Mark my words: Before long, the ringing artifacts induced by a sharp
cutoff in frequency space (ie lack of low pass filter) will be touted
as part of the (new) Leica look.

 
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