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theis "embedded adobe rgb" thing,,,,,,

 
 
bruin70@mail.com
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      08-28-2006
"embedded adobe rgb"

who is this supposed to help....me or the printer? if there's one thing
i've learned over the years dealing with printers, it's that no one
gets it right. i've given them 4x5's with kodak color bars/grey scale.
i've sent them RAW files. even FPO's with sample prints that i liked.
they never get it right, and ultimately it requires a printer with a
"good eye and color sense" anyway.

so this "adobe rgb". does it guarantee anything? does it help me to
quantify what i want? does it help the printer to be more faithful to
what i want?

 
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Vladislav
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      08-28-2006
a color reproduction in your brain is:

a number of photons * spectral sensetivity of your eyes

a spectral sensetivity is different for 40 times for a 1000 persons in
test.

a number of photons:

1. reflection light = a number of photons from radiation light * coeff
of spectral reflection (paper and etc)
2. radiation light = a number of photons

A color gamut is a all color visible to your eyes from the device. A
gamut is limited by some math coordinates. All devices have a different
gamut. That is impossible to reproduce exactly gamut of device by using
another device. Adobe color gamut just little more in comparison with
sRGB gamut. A printer gamut can be more different from both.

http://www.terekhoff.com

 
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Randy Berbaum
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      08-28-2006
http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed) wrote:
: "embedded adobe rgb"

: who is this supposed to help....me or the printer? if there's one thing
: i've learned over the years dealing with printers, it's that no one
: gets it right. i've given them 4x5's with kodak color bars/grey scale.
: i've sent them RAW files. even FPO's with sample prints that i liked.
: they never get it right, and ultimately it requires a printer with a
: "good eye and color sense" anyway.

: so this "adobe rgb". does it guarantee anything? does it help me to
: quantify what i want? does it help the printer to be more faithful to
: what i want?

The way I understand it, Adobe has taken the standard RGB and enhanced the
standard. This was originally intended to be internal to their photo
editing products. But some camera manufacturers realized that if their
product would take advantage of that same format for better use with a
major maker of high end photo editing they would have an advantage, at
least until everyone did the same. As far as I can tell the aRGB format
only works from the camera thru the adobe product. But since most printers
do not have the ability to fully use the standard RGB format, they have no
reason to include aRGB in their internal software. So aRGB has very little
to do with the printing of your image.

As to making a printer more "faithful" to what you want, this is a
problem. Most home sized printers simply do not have the ability to
accurately reproduce more than about half the colors available to the
standard RGB format, if that many. There will always be some degree of
variation between a monitor display and a print as there is always the
problem of reflective vs additive color (light being colored by light
bouncing off a surface vs light being colored by filters in the path of
the light). Converting from one to the other is never completely exact.
And if you have not calibrated your monitor and printer with a good
calibrating device the variation between the two may be much larger.

So aRGB will help effect the image from your camera to your adobe editing
software and through the editing process. But will likely do little or
nothing for your print process. At least this is how I understand it.
others here may have more specific knowledge to help you.

Randy

==========
Randy Berbaum
Champaign, IL

 
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frederick
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      08-28-2006
(E-Mail Removed) wrote:
> "embedded adobe rgb"
>
> who is this supposed to help....me or the printer? if there's one thing
> i've learned over the years dealing with printers, it's that no one
> gets it right. i've given them 4x5's with kodak color bars/grey scale.
> i've sent them RAW files. even FPO's with sample prints that i liked.
> they never get it right, and ultimately it requires a printer with a
> "good eye and color sense" anyway.
>
> so this "adobe rgb". does it guarantee anything? does it help me to
> quantify what i want? does it help the printer to be more faithful to
> what i want?
>

No - it probably doesn't guarantee anything.
If the printer is using a wet-process lab like a Fuji Frontier, there is
very little (only saturated yellow) that is possible from the printer
but outside sRGB colourspace yet inside aRGB colour space, so there is
little to gain just from aRGB (unless you specialise in photos of
daffodils?)
As well as working in the same colourspace, then also you would need to
edit and soft-proof with their printer profile embedded. This requires
you to get everything right (monitor profile and your workflow) and for
them to get things right (their profiles accurate, consistent
operation/operators, fresh chemicals etc - you have to trust them)

If you want to nail colour in your prints, then print your own on a
higher end photo inkjet. Unfortunately, that does open up several
other cans of worms...
 
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Bart van der Wolf
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      08-28-2006

<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed) ps.com...
SNIP
> so this "adobe rgb". does it guarantee anything?


It is a colorspace that allows to render saturated colors more
accurately, especially intended for process printing but useful with
other printing technologies as well.

> does it help me to quantify what i want?


Not by itself.

> does it help the printer to be more faithful to what i want?


That depends on your combined skills in colormanagement.

--
Bart

 
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Roy G
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Posts: n/a
 
      08-28-2006
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed) ps.com...
> "embedded adobe rgb"
>
> who is this supposed to help....me or the printer? if there's one thing
> i've learned over the years dealing with printers, it's that no one
> gets it right. i've given them 4x5's with kodak color bars/grey scale.
> i've sent them RAW files. even FPO's with sample prints that i liked.
> they never get it right, and ultimately it requires a printer with a
> "good eye and color sense" anyway.
>
> so this "adobe rgb". does it guarantee anything? does it help me to
> quantify what i want? does it help the printer to be more faithful to
> what i want?



This thread has so far been very informative about the existance of so many
crackpot ideas relating to colour management.

Adobe RGB is a Working Space Profile, it is one of many, and is supposed to
have a colour Gamut similar to Inkjet Printers. sRGB is another Working
Space Profile and is similar to the gamut of a Monitor.

These Profiles are only part of Colour Management, and Device Profiles are
also needed before any proper Colour Managed Workflow can be set up.

Have a read at your Editing Program Help Files for Colour Management or ICC
Profiles. If you can not find much info then that Program will not be able
to use C.M.

If you do not have a Colour Managed Workflow in place, then tagging Adobe
RGB or sRGB or any other RGB onto your images is of no use whatsoever.

Your Photo Lab will probably have a C. M. Workflow, and most of them use
sRGB as their Workspace, simply because most of their work comes from P & S
camera users, and most of those cameras only have sRGB.

Roy G


 
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Joan
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Posts: n/a
 
      08-28-2006
Roy, can you give us the next chapter? The one that explains what
happens if we send Adobe RGB files to a mini lab.

--
Joan
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joan-in-manly

"Roy G" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:9eBIg.24830$(E-Mail Removed)...
: <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
: news:(E-Mail Removed) ps.com...
: > "embedded adobe rgb"
: >
: > who is this supposed to help....me or the printer? if there's one
thing
: > i've learned over the years dealing with printers, it's that no
one
: > gets it right. i've given them 4x5's with kodak color bars/grey
scale.
: > i've sent them RAW files. even FPO's with sample prints that i
liked.
: > they never get it right, and ultimately it requires a printer with
a
: > "good eye and color sense" anyway.
: >
: > so this "adobe rgb". does it guarantee anything? does it help me
to
: > quantify what i want? does it help the printer to be more faithful
to
: > what i want?
:
:
: This thread has so far been very informative about the existance of
so many
: crackpot ideas relating to colour management.
:
: Adobe RGB is a Working Space Profile, it is one of many, and is
supposed to
: have a colour Gamut similar to Inkjet Printers. sRGB is another
Working
: Space Profile and is similar to the gamut of a Monitor.
:
: These Profiles are only part of Colour Management, and Device
Profiles are
: also needed before any proper Colour Managed Workflow can be set up.
:
: Have a read at your Editing Program Help Files for Colour Management
or ICC
: Profiles. If you can not find much info then that Program will not
be able
: to use C.M.
:
: If you do not have a Colour Managed Workflow in place, then tagging
Adobe
: RGB or sRGB or any other RGB onto your images is of no use
whatsoever.
:
: Your Photo Lab will probably have a C. M. Workflow, and most of them
use
: sRGB as their Workspace, simply because most of their work comes
from P & S
: camera users, and most of those cameras only have sRGB.
:
: Roy G
:
:

 
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Bill Hilton
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Posts: n/a
 
      08-28-2006
>Joan wrote:
> Roy, can you give us the next chapter? The one that explains what
> happens if we send Adobe RGB files to a mini lab.


I'm not Roy but here's what's going on ... the same color will have
lower RGB values in a wider gamut working space than in a lower gamut
space so if you print or display it ignoring the working space info
then saturated colors look duller.

To see this in action look at these three links (below) ... I took a
RAW file image of a red bird and converted it three times, once in sRGB
(smaller gamut), then AdobeRGB (mid-sized gamut), finally in ProPhoto
(all visible light, so extremely wide gamut). The color "red" was
approximately rendered as follows (R/G/B values) ...

srgb 200/77/39
adobe rgb 158/53/0
prophoto rgb 144/86/46

In Photoshop or any other program that recognizes the profiles these
all look pretty similar, but you can see what happens when you ignore
the profiles by looking at the images in a non-color managed
application like your web browser ... these three have been converted
to jpegs without converting to sRGB first and you can see how dull the
reds are in the prophoto rgb example ...

http://members.aol.com/bhilton665/hilton_prophoto.jpg
http://members.aol.com/bhilton665/hilton_adobergb.jpg
http://members.aol.com/bhilton665/hilton_srgb.jpg

If you download these and open in Photoshop and assign the correct
working space to each of them you'll see that they suddenly look alike
again. In other words "144/86/46" looks bright red when the program
knows it's ProPhoto working space but dull red when the program ignores
the working space info.

So to answer your question "what happens if we send Adobe RGB files to
a mini lab" look at the difference on your web browser between the sRGB
and AdobeRGB versions and note how the saturated colors look duller.
The fewer saturated colors you have the less you'll notice the
differences.

Bill

 
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Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)
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      08-28-2006
Roy G wrote:
> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:(E-Mail Removed) ps.com...
>
>>"embedded adobe rgb"
>>
>>who is this supposed to help....me or the printer? if there's one thing
>>i've learned over the years dealing with printers, it's that no one
>>gets it right. i've given them 4x5's with kodak color bars/grey scale.
>>i've sent them RAW files. even FPO's with sample prints that i liked.
>>they never get it right, and ultimately it requires a printer with a
>>"good eye and color sense" anyway.
>>
>>so this "adobe rgb". does it guarantee anything? does it help me to
>>quantify what i want? does it help the printer to be more faithful to
>>what i want?

>
> This thread has so far been very informative about the existance of so many
> crackpot ideas relating to colour management.


Yes, I agree.

> Adobe RGB is a Working Space Profile, it is one of many, and is supposed to
> have a colour Gamut similar to Inkjet Printers. sRGB is another Working
> Space Profile and is similar to the gamut of a Monitor.
>
> These Profiles are only part of Colour Management, and Device Profiles are
> also needed before any proper Colour Managed Workflow can be set up.
>
> Have a read at your Editing Program Help Files for Colour Management or ICC
> Profiles. If you can not find much info then that Program will not be able
> to use C.M.
>
> If you do not have a Colour Managed Workflow in place, then tagging Adobe
> RGB or sRGB or any other RGB onto your images is of no use whatsoever.
>
> Your Photo Lab will probably have a C. M. Workflow, and most of them use
> sRGB as their Workspace, simply because most of their work comes from P & S
> camera users, and most of those cameras only have sRGB.


A good photo lab will have ICC profiles for their printer, and you
create image files with that profile applied. If you ask the lab
for ICC profile for their printers, and they don't know what
that is, find another lab.

Color management: The main reason why we need color management is
due to the way the eye responds to light. It is not linear and is
not even independent of each channel. The eye actually subtracts
one color from another to perceive some colors. You can't make the
range of responses the eye sees with inks or CRTs, or LCDs without
some special work. And even then the range the total range will
almost always be lees that what can be p[perceived by the eye.
Color management tries to correct issues and map colors that can't
be reproduced into something close. The due to the spectral response
of inks, colors may appear different depending on the light source,
or two colors may appear the same but actually be different.

Start here and read a little about the color spectrum. Ignore the eye
sensitivity plots--in this page: they don't tell the whole
story:
http://www.midnightkite.com/color.html

Next:

Introduction to color science
http://www.techmind.org/colour
Note the double peak of the x-curve in the first figure--that
peak in the blue is actually negative response, so the eye
subtracts blue from the red channel, and that causes a lot
of the issues and need for color management. The other reason
is that if the inks don't perfectly match the spectral response
of the eye, then the colors can't match the eye. No ink
perfectly matches that response. So we have approximations.

Out of Gamut: Getting a Handle on Color Management
Color-geek extraordinaire Bruce Fraser spells out
the basics in this primer on color management systems.
http://www.creativepro.com/story/feature/13605.html

Tons of info about color spaces: click on the "info" button
and work from there.
http://www.brucelindbloom.com/index.html

This is also interesting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purple

Get the book:
Real World Color Management 2nd edition, by Fraser et al.,
Peachpit Press, 2005.

More good info:
http://www.cs.unc.edu/~majumder/color/paper.html

Here is my digital workflow which illustrates when
color management steps are done:
http://www.clarkvision.com/photoinfo/digitalworkflow

Roger
 
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Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      08-28-2006
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) wrote:

> Roy G wrote:
>
>> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>> news:(E-Mail Removed) ps.com...
>>
>>> "embedded adobe rgb"
>>>
>>> who is this supposed to help....me or the printer? if there's one thing
>>> i've learned over the years dealing with printers, it's that no one
>>> gets it right. i've given them 4x5's with kodak color bars/grey scale.
>>> i've sent them RAW files. even FPO's with sample prints that i liked.
>>> they never get it right, and ultimately it requires a printer with a
>>> "good eye and color sense" anyway.
>>>
>>> so this "adobe rgb". does it guarantee anything? does it help me to
>>> quantify what i want? does it help the printer to be more faithful to
>>> what i want?

>>
>>
>> This thread has so far been very informative about the existance of so
>> many crackpot ideas relating to colour management.

>
>
> Yes, I agree.
>
>> Adobe RGB is a Working Space Profile, it is one of many, and is
>> supposed to have a colour Gamut similar to Inkjet Printers. sRGB is
>> another Working Space Profile and is similar to the gamut of a Monitor.
>>
>> These Profiles are only part of Colour Management, and Device
>> Profiles are also needed before any proper Colour Managed Workflow can
>> be set up.
>>
>> Have a read at your Editing Program Help Files for Colour Management
>> or ICC Profiles. If you can not find much info then that Program will
>> not be able to use C.M.
>>
>> If you do not have a Colour Managed Workflow in place, then tagging
>> Adobe RGB or sRGB or any other RGB onto your images is of no use
>> whatsoever.
>>
>> Your Photo Lab will probably have a C. M. Workflow, and most of them
>> use sRGB as their Workspace, simply because most of their work comes
>> from P & S camera users, and most of those cameras only have sRGB.

>
>
> A good photo lab will have ICC profiles for their printer, and you
> create image files with that profile applied. If you ask the lab
> for ICC profile for their printers, and they don't know what
> that is, find another lab.
>
> Color management: The main reason why we need color management is
> due to the way the eye responds to light. It is not linear and is
> not even independent of each channel. The eye actually subtracts
> one color from another to perceive some colors. You can't make the
> range of responses the eye sees with inks or CRTs, or LCDs without
> some special work. And even then the range the total range will
> almost always be lees that what can be p[perceived by the eye.
> Color management tries to correct issues and map colors that can't
> be reproduced into something close. The due to the spectral response
> of inks, colors may appear different depending on the light source,
> or two colors may appear the same but actually be different.
>
> Start here and read a little about the color spectrum. Ignore the eye
> sensitivity plots--in this page: they don't tell the whole
> story:
> http://www.midnightkite.com/color.html
>
> Next:
>
> Introduction to color science
> http://www.techmind.org/colour
> Note the double peak of the x-curve in the first figure--that
> peak in the blue is actually negative response, so the eye
> subtracts blue from the red channel, and that causes a lot
> of the issues and need for color management. The other reason
> is that if the inks don't perfectly match the spectral response
> of the eye, then the colors can't match the eye. No ink
> perfectly matches that response. So we have approximations.
>
> Out of Gamut: Getting a Handle on Color Management
> Color-geek extraordinaire Bruce Fraser spells out
> the basics in this primer on color management systems.
> http://www.creativepro.com/story/feature/13605.html
>
> Tons of info about color spaces: click on the "info" button
> and work from there.
> http://www.brucelindbloom.com/index.html
>
> This is also interesting:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purple
>
> Get the book:
> Real World Color Management 2nd edition, by Fraser et al.,
> Peachpit Press, 2005.
>
> More good info:
> http://www.cs.unc.edu/~majumder/color/paper.html
>
> Here is my digital workflow which illustrates when
> color management steps are done:
> http://www.clarkvision.com/photoinfo/digitalworkflow
>
> Roger

And check out Bill Hilton's example!
 
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