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Re: mcsd

 
 
Davin Mickelson
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Posts: n/a
 
      08-12-2003
I do not have a college degree yet have taught college (accredited) courses
at the University of Minnesota on .NET.
I landed my current job based on experience and certifications.

The job market can be biased towards those with college degrees - depending
on the potential employer.
I consider it their loss for foreboding my lack of degree over skill set.

There are plenty of college graduates that have never developed on Windows.
They develop on C++/Java on Unix and call themselves scientists.

Davin Mickelson
MCP+SB, MCSD(VC++,VB6), MCSD.NET, MCSA

"chris" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:0bcf01c360b9$9b2e39a0$(E-Mail Removed)...
> I'm planning to get a MCSD w/i the next year. How
> valuable is that w/o a 4 year degree?



 
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chris
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Posts: n/a
 
      08-13-2003
well, yes, my company, the govt, will be paying for it. i
don't have any real world programming exp, but i have
class room exp. i'm very interested in breaking into the
programming side of things. i've been on the networking
side for over 6 years. would the mcsd really help me land
that programming dream job after getting out of the
military? thanks.
>-----Original Message-----
>So true.
>
>"John S" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>> > There are plenty of college graduates that have never

developed on
>> Windows.
>> > They develop on C++/Java on Unix and call themselves

scientists.
>>
>> There are plenty of college graduates that have only

developed on Windows.
>> They develop only with VB or C# and we call them

cowboys.
>>
>> "Davin Mickelson" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in

message
>> news:OEo%(E-Mail Removed)...
>> > I do not have a college degree yet have taught

college (accredited)
>> courses
>> > at the University of Minnesota on .NET.
>> > I landed my current job based on experience and

certifications.
>> >
>> > The job market can be biased towards those with

college degrees -
>> depending
>> > on the potential employer.
>> > I consider it their loss for foreboding my lack of

degree over skill
>set.
>> >
>> > There are plenty of college graduates that have never

developed on
>> Windows.
>> > They develop on C++/Java on Unix and call themselves

scientists.
>> >
>> > Davin Mickelson
>> > MCP+SB, MCSD(VC++,VB6), MCSD.NET, MCSA
>> >
>> > "chris" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>> > news:0bcf01c360b9$9b2e39a0$(E-Mail Removed)...
>> > > I'm planning to get a MCSD w/i the next year. How
>> > > valuable is that w/o a 4 year degree?
>> >
>> >

>>
>>

>
>
>.
>

 
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emg
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Posts: n/a
 
      08-13-2003
Chris, right now the entire IT market in the U.S. is in a state of
upheaval. A lot of programming jobs are going overseas - - permanently. So
to answer your question: no, an MCSD is unlikely to get you a programming
job when you have no relevant experience. I know good programmers with
experience and degrees and/or certs that have spent over a year unemployed.

Now maybe things will turn around. And certainly if the training and cert
costs are paid for by your employer, you lose nothing by acquiring the
certification. Despite all the gloom and doom, some people in some places
DO manage to get the job they want. So I'm not trying to kill off your
"dream". I'm just cautioning you not to pin all your hopes on a
certification or even getting a programming job at all. Try to explore
other options in addition to a programming career.

Best of Luck!

emg

"chris" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:04fd01c36188$062bdbd0$(E-Mail Removed)...
> well, yes, my company, the govt, will be paying for it. i
> don't have any real world programming exp, but i have
> class room exp. i'm very interested in breaking into the
> programming side of things. i've been on the networking
> side for over 6 years. would the mcsd really help me land
> that programming dream job after getting out of the
> military? thanks.
> >-----Original Message-----
> >So true.
> >
> >"John S" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> >news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> >> > There are plenty of college graduates that have never

> developed on
> >> Windows.
> >> > They develop on C++/Java on Unix and call themselves

> scientists.
> >>
> >> There are plenty of college graduates that have only

> developed on Windows.
> >> They develop only with VB or C# and we call them

> cowboys.
> >>
> >> "Davin Mickelson" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in

> message
> >> news:OEo%(E-Mail Removed)...
> >> > I do not have a college degree yet have taught

> college (accredited)
> >> courses
> >> > at the University of Minnesota on .NET.
> >> > I landed my current job based on experience and

> certifications.
> >> >
> >> > The job market can be biased towards those with

> college degrees -
> >> depending
> >> > on the potential employer.
> >> > I consider it their loss for foreboding my lack of

> degree over skill
> >set.
> >> >
> >> > There are plenty of college graduates that have never

> developed on
> >> Windows.
> >> > They develop on C++/Java on Unix and call themselves

> scientists.
> >> >
> >> > Davin Mickelson
> >> > MCP+SB, MCSD(VC++,VB6), MCSD.NET, MCSA
> >> >
> >> > "chris" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> >> > news:0bcf01c360b9$9b2e39a0$(E-Mail Removed)...
> >> > > I'm planning to get a MCSD w/i the next year. How
> >> > > valuable is that w/o a 4 year degree?
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>

> >
> >
> >.
> >



 
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Kline Sphere
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      08-13-2003
>would the mcsd really help me land
>that programming dream job after getting out of the
>military?


No. But your experience in the military might help if it was with
electronics avionics especially in the avionics field.
 
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Kline Sphere
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      08-13-2003
>A lot of programming jobs are going overseas - - permanently.

People said that in the mid 80's and again in the early 90's when
previously outsourceing was all the rage. The reason there is so must
emphasis on outsourcing this time around, is solely down to the
inefficiencies of IT infrastructures, in other words it 'seems'
cheaper to let someone else do it. This is completely inaccurate as in
a well organized, disciplined & professional environment there is no
way a third party could 'compete' and 'provide' cheaper services to
you.

Software engineering to not like production engineering, which
requires little human involvement; so if IT infrastructures where
managed by competent professionals, there would be no outsourcing,
period.
 
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Crystal
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      08-13-2003
Someone I used to work with got a job this way. But that company paid her
bottom (and I mean BOTTOM) dollar salary-wise.

You might try getting a job on the networking side for a company where you
can grow into their development department.

"chris" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:04fd01c36188$062bdbd0$(E-Mail Removed)...
> well, yes, my company, the govt, will be paying for it. i
> don't have any real world programming exp, but i have
> class room exp. i'm very interested in breaking into the
> programming side of things. i've been on the networking
> side for over 6 years. would the mcsd really help me land
> that programming dream job after getting out of the
> military? thanks.
> >-----Original Message-----
> >So true.
> >
> >"John S" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> >news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> >> > There are plenty of college graduates that have never

> developed on
> >> Windows.
> >> > They develop on C++/Java on Unix and call themselves

> scientists.
> >>
> >> There are plenty of college graduates that have only

> developed on Windows.
> >> They develop only with VB or C# and we call them

> cowboys.
> >>
> >> "Davin Mickelson" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in

> message
> >> news:OEo%(E-Mail Removed)...
> >> > I do not have a college degree yet have taught

> college (accredited)
> >> courses
> >> > at the University of Minnesota on .NET.
> >> > I landed my current job based on experience and

> certifications.
> >> >
> >> > The job market can be biased towards those with

> college degrees -
> >> depending
> >> > on the potential employer.
> >> > I consider it their loss for foreboding my lack of

> degree over skill
> >set.
> >> >
> >> > There are plenty of college graduates that have never

> developed on
> >> Windows.
> >> > They develop on C++/Java on Unix and call themselves

> scientists.
> >> >
> >> > Davin Mickelson
> >> > MCP+SB, MCSD(VC++,VB6), MCSD.NET, MCSA
> >> >
> >> > "chris" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> >> > news:0bcf01c360b9$9b2e39a0$(E-Mail Removed)...
> >> > > I'm planning to get a MCSD w/i the next year. How
> >> > > valuable is that w/o a 4 year degree?
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>

> >
> >
> >.
> >



 
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Davin Mickelson
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      08-13-2003
From what I've seen, there is a glass wall between the networking folks and
the developers. It may be tough to transfer at a company from cleaning
several machines with the Blaster virus to cutting .NET code. The employer
may prefer you to continue cleaning machines (where you're most efficient
for the company) rather than begin coding. This can be true going the other
way too for other reasons (salary, etc.).

Tough call.

"Crystal" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> Someone I used to work with got a job this way. But that company paid her
> bottom (and I mean BOTTOM) dollar salary-wise.
>
> You might try getting a job on the networking side for a company where you
> can grow into their development department.
>
> "chris" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:04fd01c36188$062bdbd0$(E-Mail Removed)...
> > well, yes, my company, the govt, will be paying for it. i
> > don't have any real world programming exp, but i have
> > class room exp. i'm very interested in breaking into the
> > programming side of things. i've been on the networking
> > side for over 6 years. would the mcsd really help me land
> > that programming dream job after getting out of the
> > military? thanks.
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >So true.
> > >
> > >"John S" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> > >news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> > >> > There are plenty of college graduates that have never

> > developed on
> > >> Windows.
> > >> > They develop on C++/Java on Unix and call themselves

> > scientists.
> > >>
> > >> There are plenty of college graduates that have only

> > developed on Windows.
> > >> They develop only with VB or C# and we call them

> > cowboys.
> > >>
> > >> "Davin Mickelson" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in

> > message
> > >> news:OEo%(E-Mail Removed)...
> > >> > I do not have a college degree yet have taught

> > college (accredited)
> > >> courses
> > >> > at the University of Minnesota on .NET.
> > >> > I landed my current job based on experience and

> > certifications.
> > >> >
> > >> > The job market can be biased towards those with

> > college degrees -
> > >> depending
> > >> > on the potential employer.
> > >> > I consider it their loss for foreboding my lack of

> > degree over skill
> > >set.
> > >> >
> > >> > There are plenty of college graduates that have never

> > developed on
> > >> Windows.
> > >> > They develop on C++/Java on Unix and call themselves

> > scientists.
> > >> >
> > >> > Davin Mickelson
> > >> > MCP+SB, MCSD(VC++,VB6), MCSD.NET, MCSA
> > >> >
> > >> > "chris" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> > >> > news:0bcf01c360b9$9b2e39a0$(E-Mail Removed)...
> > >> > > I'm planning to get a MCSD w/i the next year. How
> > >> > > valuable is that w/o a 4 year degree?
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >.
> > >

>
>



 
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Kline Sphere
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      08-14-2003
>what certs would help me break into that
>career since the mcsd wouldn't offer much help?


None, unless you have experience.

There are hundreds of grads with computer related degrees who have
given up on IT, because they could not get jobs, and chosen other more
lucrative careers. It those grads you will be competing with marking
it very hard for all.

> also,
>network security seems to be in demand now, are there any
>cisco, or security certs currently being offered that
>would stand out on resumes?


Of course there are. But again these would do you little good without
real world experience.
 
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Crystal
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      08-14-2003
I guess I have just been fortunate with the companies I have worked for. At
one company, someone in accounting and another person who was a receptionist
moved into the application support department. From there they were both
able to become developers. It wasn't an overnight change, it took several
years, but in application support, they were able to learn the programming
language, then they maintained applications, then eventually developed
applications. A couple of guys I worked with started as network guys, then
moved to a small company where they did development and admin, then moved to
another company doing only development. The last company I worked for, both
of the network guys also did development. The company I work for now is all
about transferring people internally if you show you have the initiative and
the skills. Right now one of our network guys is going to school so he can
eventually transfer.

Another thing he could do is get a developer within the company to "mentor"
him. Then the mentor might serve as a reference when he wants to move on.
When I started out, I had a mentor who recommended books and also gave me
career advice at certain critical junctions in my career. He also gave me
programming assignments for apps that could be used within the company which
helped me get experience.

Crystal


"Davin Mickelson" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> From what I've seen, there is a glass wall between the networking folks

and
> the developers. It may be tough to transfer at a company from cleaning
> several machines with the Blaster virus to cutting .NET code. The employer
> may prefer you to continue cleaning machines (where you're most efficient
> for the company) rather than begin coding. This can be true going the

other
> way too for other reasons (salary, etc.).
>
> Tough call.
>
> "Crystal" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> > Someone I used to work with got a job this way. But that company paid

her
> > bottom (and I mean BOTTOM) dollar salary-wise.
> >
> > You might try getting a job on the networking side for a company where

you
> > can grow into their development department.
> >
> > "chris" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> > news:04fd01c36188$062bdbd0$(E-Mail Removed)...
> > > well, yes, my company, the govt, will be paying for it. i
> > > don't have any real world programming exp, but i have
> > > class room exp. i'm very interested in breaking into the
> > > programming side of things. i've been on the networking
> > > side for over 6 years. would the mcsd really help me land
> > > that programming dream job after getting out of the
> > > military? thanks.
> > > >-----Original Message-----
> > > >So true.
> > > >
> > > >"John S" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> > > >news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> > > >> > There are plenty of college graduates that have never
> > > developed on
> > > >> Windows.
> > > >> > They develop on C++/Java on Unix and call themselves
> > > scientists.
> > > >>
> > > >> There are plenty of college graduates that have only
> > > developed on Windows.
> > > >> They develop only with VB or C# and we call them
> > > cowboys.
> > > >>
> > > >> "Davin Mickelson" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
> > > message
> > > >> news:OEo%(E-Mail Removed)...
> > > >> > I do not have a college degree yet have taught
> > > college (accredited)
> > > >> courses
> > > >> > at the University of Minnesota on .NET.
> > > >> > I landed my current job based on experience and
> > > certifications.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > The job market can be biased towards those with
> > > college degrees -
> > > >> depending
> > > >> > on the potential employer.
> > > >> > I consider it their loss for foreboding my lack of
> > > degree over skill
> > > >set.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > There are plenty of college graduates that have never
> > > developed on
> > > >> Windows.
> > > >> > They develop on C++/Java on Unix and call themselves
> > > scientists.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Davin Mickelson
> > > >> > MCP+SB, MCSD(VC++,VB6), MCSD.NET, MCSA
> > > >> >
> > > >> > "chris" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> > > >> > news:0bcf01c360b9$9b2e39a0$(E-Mail Removed)...
> > > >> > > I'm planning to get a MCSD w/i the next year. How
> > > >> > > valuable is that w/o a 4 year degree?
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >.
> > > >

> >
> >

>
>



 
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