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Delete pictures or just Format...Which?

 
 
cjcampbell
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      07-23-2006

Denny B wrote:
> A digital camera CF memory card, Nikon D70s.
> What is correct, after transferring the pictures
> to a CD-R.
> 1)do you just delete the pictures on the card.
> 2)Or do you delete them, then format the card.
> 3)Or just format the card which will automatically
> delete the pictures and format the card.
>
> I have used #3 up to now, but recently was told
> if you format the card often to delete pictures
> you will damage the card.
> I was told don't format just delete the pictures.
>
> Is there a right way to do this?


The D70s does not actually format a card anyway. "Formatting" just
deletes all the files. I have tried putting a card with a different
format into the camera. Instead of formatting it, the camera simply
refuses to read it.

 
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ASAAR
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      07-24-2006
On 23 Jul 2006 16:36:53 -0700, cjcampbell wrote:

> The D70s does not actually format a card anyway. "Formatting" just
> deletes all the files. I have tried putting a card with a different
> format into the camera. Instead of formatting it, the camera simply
> refuses to read it.


If a new Lexar (or other brand) card is used that includes "free"
utility software in a folder, would the software remain on the card
after formatting? If you have a D70 you can test this simply by
copying a few document or other types of non-image files to an
existing card before formatting it in the camera. They wouldn't
survive being formatted in a card reader, so if they survive an
in-camera format, the camera really isn't doing a true format, but
some kind of file delete operation instead.

There's nothing surprising about the D70s refusing to read a card
with an unknown format. Computers work this way too. A hard disk
drive can contain multiple partitions, each formatted using a
different file system. If you try to format the hard drive, you'll
only be able to format the logical drives containing file systems
that are known by the OS, and only one at a time. To format such a
drive in one operation, you'd probably first have remove all of the
existing partitions, then create a new large partition encompassing
the entire drive using FAT32 or NTFS (if using Windows) and then
format the drive. Similarly, if the D70 doesn't understand the
format (or file system) used by the card, it should refuse to
recognize it.


 
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cjcampbell
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      07-24-2006

ASAAR wrote:
> On 23 Jul 2006 16:36:53 -0700, cjcampbell wrote:
>
> > The D70s does not actually format a card anyway. "Formatting" just
> > deletes all the files. I have tried putting a card with a different
> > format into the camera. Instead of formatting it, the camera simply
> > refuses to read it.

>
> If a new Lexar (or other brand) card is used that includes "free"
> utility software in a folder, would the software remain on the card
> after formatting? If you have a D70 you can test this simply by
> copying a few document or other types of non-image files to an
> existing card before formatting it in the camera.


The D70 would erase them. I tried that already when experimenting with
it.

 
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Bill Funk
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      07-24-2006
On Sun, 23 Jul 2006 19:18:33 -0400, ASAAR <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> As for the card readers, there's no documentation on them that I'm
>aware of, but they're *not* plugged into one of the 6 available
>external USB 2.0 HS ports. They're built into the top of the
>computer's case (just above the DVD writer), with 4 physical slots
>supporting 6 or 7 card types. I can live with their lack of speed
>for now, but if and when I get a camera whose image files are larger
>than my current S5100's, and have more than 1GB to transfer at a
>time, or if I get an mp3 player, then I'll start looking for an
>external card reader that's USB 2.0 HS compatible.


Something I ran across recently...
http://www.trustedreviews.com/articl...ge=7501&head=0
According to this review, the card reader has a lot to do with the
speed the card delivers.
And none of the cards they tested/reviewed came close to their
advertised speeds.
I've noticed the difference in reader speeds, as I have one for my
desktop and one for my laptop, and they differ in speed with the same
cards.
--
Bill Funk
replace "g" with "a"
 
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ASAAR
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      07-24-2006
On 23 Jul 2006 21:18:39 -0700, cjcampbell wrote:

>> If a new Lexar (or other brand) card is used that includes "free"
>> utility software in a folder, would the software remain on the card
>> after formatting? If you have a D70 you can test this simply by
>> copying a few document or other types of non-image files to an
>> existing card before formatting it in the camera.

>
> The D70 would erase them. I tried that already when experimenting with
> it.


I realize that based on the way you're imagining how the D70
operates that this is consistent with saying that all of the files
have been deleted. To me, it simply indicates that the D70
formatted the card. I've seen a camera (don't recall if it's my
S5100 or another) that has in one part of its menu the option to
delete either a single picture or all pictures. This wouldn't touch
files not in one of the camera's own image folders. Another part of
the menu has a format option, and this one would wipe out
*everything* on the card - assuming that the card has no other
partitions on it. Does the D70 have these three options, or just
the ability do delete single images and format the card?

You can indirectly figure out what the camera is doing based on
how long it takes to delete files or format the card when it
contains a huge number of very small files. If the D70 does a
"full" or "complete" format, it should take a fairly long time to
finish, and it wouldn't matter if the card is empty or contains a
huge number of files. Either way it would take the same amount of
time to complete, but a large card would take longer to format than
a smaller card, since it would have many more sectors to overwrite.
If the D70 does a "quick" format instead, it will finish much more
quickly than a full format, but it might (or might not) take a
little bit more time to quick format a very full card than an empty
card. With a quick format, it should take about the same, small
amount of time to format either a small or a large card.

If the D70 is really deleting files, the amount of time it takes
would be proportional to the number of files it needs to delete, and
this could range from a few seconds for a small number of files to
half an hour or longer if it contains 100,000 or more files.

 
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David J Taylor
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      07-24-2006
ASAAR wrote:
[]
> As for the card readers, there's no documentation on them that I'm
> aware of, but they're *not* plugged into one of the 6 available
> external USB 2.0 HS ports. They're built into the top of the
> computer's case (just above the DVD writer), with 4 physical slots
> supporting 6 or 7 card types.

[]

You may find that the Card Reader is plugged into a USB port internally,
that's what I meant.

Typically, there are sets of 8-pin headers on the motherboard for the
connections to the USB ports, and some devices may be plugged straight in
inside the PC, whereas the external devices may have short cables
connecting the headers on the motherboard to external connectors on the
back panel mounting slots (for those which aren't assembled with external
connectors as part of the motherboard assembly).

David


 
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ASAAR
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Posts: n/a
 
      07-24-2006
On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 06:05:44 GMT, David J Taylor wrote:

>> As for the card readers, there's no documentation on them that I'm
>> aware of, but they're *not* plugged into one of the 6 available
>> external USB 2.0 HS ports. They're built into the top of the
>> computer's case (just above the DVD writer), with 4 physical slots
>> supporting 6 or 7 card types.

> []
>
> You may find that the Card Reader is plugged into a USB port internally,
> that's what I meant.
>
> Typically, there are sets of 8-pin headers on the motherboard for the
> connections to the USB ports, and some devices may be plugged straight in
> inside the PC, whereas the external devices may have short cables
> connecting the headers on the motherboard to external connectors on the
> back panel mounting slots (for those which aren't assembled with external
> connectors as part of the motherboard assembly).


I also think that the card reader(s) is USB, but as I originally
stated, probably just some old USB 1.1 or USB 2.0 FS hardware that
HP's bean counters want to continue using until the supply of them
runs out. If I see a cable with an 8-pin header on one end and a
USB socket on the other end in CompUSA or some computer shop I might
get one just to experiment. Another possibility would be to swap
the 8-pin headers from the card reader and one of the front mounted
USB ports just to verify that both ports are really USB 2.0 HS. My
original guess was that the card reader was USB 1.1 or USB 2.0 FS,
and was probably plugged into a USB 2.0 HS port on the motherboard,
as it seems bizarre that some manufacturer of motherboards would
design one with 1 FS and 6 HS ports on it.

I just discovered one interesting use for the card reader though.
XP has a utility that allows users to create a password recovery
disk. But the documentation I've seen says that it writes the
recovery file only to floppy diskettes. This computer has no floppy
disk drive, but I found that the utility will cheerfully write the
file to a flash card in the reader. I now have a use for the 8MB
card that came with my old Canon P&S camera.


 
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David J Taylor
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Posts: n/a
 
      07-24-2006
ASAAR wrote:
[]
> I also think that the card reader(s) is USB, but as I originally
> stated, probably just some old USB 1.1 or USB 2.0 FS hardware that
> HP's bean counters want to continue using until the supply of them
> runs out. If I see a cable with an 8-pin header on one end and a
> USB socket on the other end in CompUSA or some computer shop I might
> get one just to experiment. Another possibility would be to swap
> the 8-pin headers from the card reader and one of the front mounted
> USB ports just to verify that both ports are really USB 2.0 HS. My
> original guess was that the card reader was USB 1.1 or USB 2.0 FS,
> and was probably plugged into a USB 2.0 HS port on the motherboard,
> as it seems bizarre that some manufacturer of motherboards would
> design one with 1 FS and 6 HS ports on it.


Completely agree! Have fun, and take care. It's easy to disturb other
wiring when swapping the headers.

> I just discovered one interesting use for the card reader though.
> XP has a utility that allows users to create a password recovery
> disk. But the documentation I've seen says that it writes the
> recovery file only to floppy diskettes. This computer has no floppy
> disk drive, but I found that the utility will cheerfully write the
> file to a flash card in the reader. I now have a use for the 8MB
> card that came with my old Canon P&S camera.


Great! I better look out the 4MB CF card which came with my Nikon Coolpix
900 back in 1998.

David


 
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Roger
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      07-24-2006
On Sun, 23 Jul 2006 20:19:54 -0400, ASAAR <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>On 23 Jul 2006 16:36:53 -0700, cjcampbell wrote:
>
>> The D70s does not actually format a card anyway. "Formatting" just
>> deletes all the files. I have tried putting a card with a different
>> format into the camera. Instead of formatting it, the camera simply
>> refuses to read it.

>
> If a new Lexar (or other brand) card is used that includes "free"
>utility software in a folder, would the software remain on the card
>after formatting? If you have a D70 you can test this simply by
>copying a few document or other types of non-image files to an
>existing card before formatting it in the camera. They wouldn't
>survive being formatted in a card reader, so if they survive an


If this were true file recovery programs wouldn't work.

A delete only removes the pointer(s) in the directory to the file and
marks that space as available.

In general a format also deletes the directory structure pointers and
then recreates its own directory structure. On the D70 even if the
card is formatted in a computer it will create it's own directory
structure when the card is first inserted. You can even swap the card
back and forth between different makes of cameras. I do between an Oly
E20N and the D70. Both get along quite fine even if they can not read
each others images.It may not be the most efficient use of space but
it sure is convenient.

>in-camera format, the camera really isn't doing a true format, but
>some kind of file delete operation instead.


Most computers do a format the same way. Normally they only reset the
pointers and the original data is still there. As I said before, if
they didn't the file recovery programs wouldn't work.

If you do a delete all, or delete all of the images one at a time
there is no fragmentation either.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

>
> There's nothing surprising about the D70s refusing to read a card
>with an unknown format. Computers work this way too. A hard disk
>drive can contain multiple partitions, each formatted using a
>different file system. If you try to format the hard drive, you'll
>only be able to format the logical drives containing file systems
>that are known by the OS, and only one at a time. To format such a
>drive in one operation, you'd probably first have remove all of the
>existing partitions, then create a new large partition encompassing
>the entire drive using FAT32 or NTFS (if using Windows) and then
>format the drive. Similarly, if the D70 doesn't understand the
>format (or file system) used by the card, it should refuse to
>recognize it.
>

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
 
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cjcampbell
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Posts: n/a
 
      07-24-2006

ASAAR wrote:
> On 23 Jul 2006 21:18:39 -0700, cjcampbell wrote:
>
> >> If a new Lexar (or other brand) card is used that includes "free"
> >> utility software in a folder, would the software remain on the card
> >> after formatting? If you have a D70 you can test this simply by
> >> copying a few document or other types of non-image files to an
> >> existing card before formatting it in the camera.

> >
> > The D70 would erase them. I tried that already when experimenting with
> > it.

>
> I realize that based on the way you're imagining how the D70
> operates that this is consistent with saying that all of the files
> have been deleted. To me, it simply indicates that the D70
> formatted the card. I've seen a camera (don't recall if it's my
> S5100 or another) that has in one part of its menu the option to
> delete either a single picture or all pictures. This wouldn't touch
> files not in one of the camera's own image folders. Another part of
> the menu has a format option, and this one would wipe out
> *everything* on the card - assuming that the card has no other
> partitions on it. Does the D70 have these three options, or just
> the ability do delete single images and format the card?
>


I am not aware of any option to delete all the images, but then I never
looked for one.

> You can indirectly figure out what the camera is doing based on
> how long it takes to delete files or format the card when it
> contains a huge number of very small files. If the D70 does a
> "full" or "complete" format, it should take a fairly long time to
> finish, and it wouldn't matter if the card is empty or contains a
> huge number of files.


It takes about two seconds, no matter what.

 
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