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Is there a dslr on the market that does not require looking at it to make adjustments?

 
 
siddhartha.chaudhuri@gmail.com
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      03-23-2006
http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed) wrote:
> No bourbon button so i will have to pass, although I would reconsider
> if they replace the Adams button with a Kafka button.


Upon pressing which, you would find yourself transformed into a
gigantic insect?

 
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ronviers@gmail.com
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      03-23-2006
Or even better, my family would be free of a giant insect. We should
all focus on the happy ending.

 
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k-man
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      03-23-2006
>Thanks,
>Ron


You could get a camera that has an "automatic" mode. Just stick it on
"automatic" and then you don't have to look at it.

If you want to get fancy, you could, in theory, memorize the positions
of all the function buttons. If a setting, such as iso, doesn't show
up through the viewfinder when you're aiming for your shot, you could
keep track of how many "clicks of the wheel" it would take to go from,
for example, your current iso your desired iso.

Kevin

 
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David J. Littleboy
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      03-23-2006
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>> Also, I think you overestimate "tactile". I suppose you could feel your
>> way
>> to an f stop, but focus and shutter speed would be impossible.

>
> Streetshooters have been setting focus by feel for aeons. I quote from
> an article by Mike Johnston about Leica lenses:
>
> "[The 35mm Summicron] is the best and easiest lens to learn to
> pre-focus. This skill is one of the keys to using a Leica well. To
> recap for those who may not already know this (most Leica photographers
> know this, I'm sure), it is simply to look at the distance to the
> object you wish to focus on and set the focus on the camera by feel,
> without having the camera to your eye and without using the
> rangefinder. Push the tab all the way to the right [directions relative
> to behind the camera of course] and you're on infinity; place the tab
> pointing directly down, and you're focused at about five feet.


Live and learn. I prefer my images actually to be in focus, so wouldn't even
think of fooling around like that.

> David, there's a class of photographer who doesn't give a damn about
> 12.7 MP but wants the useability of a small, unobtrusive, tactile
> camera for street-shooting.


Could be. I definately consider crappy images uninteresting, and given
modern AF, zone focusing games seem like bad ideas that have long outlived
their usefulness. FWIW, I do own and use a rangefinder camera, though.

> The 5D doesn't fall into that category --
> _that_ is why Ron won't buy it (please correct me, Ron, if I'm wrong),
> and I wouldn't either. (And nor do the tiny P&S's, for reasons too
> obvious to mention.)


See below for 5D vs. street shooting. Also, here's an essay by someone who
does street shooting with a 5D. (I don't know if this particular article
speaks to this question, but if you read through his essays, you'll find
quite a bit of street shooting related stuff.)

http://www.prime-junta.net/pont/Pont...me_Or_Not.html

> Ron mentioned that people stiffen up when a camera is pointed at them
> -- can you imagine what would happen if that camera was as big and
> scary as a 5D?


The 5D's not all that much larger than the R-D1: 142 x 88.5 x 39.5 vs. 152 x
113 x 75. Most of that difference is in the thickness. It is almost 1/3
taller, though.

> And it doesn't have the controls he asks for either.


If one really wanted the shot, one would just use AF/AE.

> I
> agree the RD-1 price is horrendous, but that doesn't necessarily mean a
> 5D is a better alternative.


If size is of concern, the 350D's 127 x 94 x 64 mm is basically smaller and
lighter than the R-D1. And the US$2000 left over will buy you a Cosina Bessa
film rangefinder.

> Also, if the RD-1 is a fake Leica body, what about all other
> rangefinders out there? Are they all fake Leicas too?


The R-D1 is built on the "Voightlander (sp?)" (actually Cosina) Bessa. The
Bessa is a whole series of cameras, including both screw mount and M mount
models. The term "fake Leica" seems quite appropriate.

Zeiss and Rollei both have (relatively) new rangefinder cameras out; both of
which bear more than coincidental similarity to the Bessa that the R-D1 is
built from<g>. The Cosina-made (!!!!) "Zeiss" lenses are flipping amazing,
by the way.

Unfortunately, the "Texas Leica" has been discontinued. I finally found one
used, but didn't fall in love, so I just bought a Mamiya 7.

> Please understand that there are some of us who don't shoot high-res
> landscapes or wildlife.


The 5D comment was simply an example of a quality camera for the same price,
I wasn't making a serious suggestion for street photography, but thinking
about it, it turns out that it wouldn't be all that bad. I suppose the 350D
plus a small prime (24/2.8 or 35/2.0) might be a reasonable approach for
someone who thinks they don't need the image quality. But the better AF,
better low-light performance, and higher resolution would make the 5D +
35/2.0 or 50/1.4 the better tool for street photography. The 5D's AF point
pattern is more compact than the 350D/30D pattern, making it quite
reasonable for street photography in which one is aiming only roughly. (I'd
worry about false hits by the extreme left and right focus points with the
350D.) And the extra resolution would allow you to crop, so you wouldn't
have to worry about exact framing.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan


 
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siddhartha.chaudhuri@gmail.com
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      03-23-2006
> Live and learn. I prefer my images actually to be in focus, so wouldn't even
> think of fooling around like that.


Hmmm... to each his own I guess. But you do know, don't you, that a lot
of people from Cartier-B downwards are reputed to have worked like
that? And their images are pretty much in-focus.

> Could be. I definately consider crappy images uninteresting, and given
> modern AF, zone focusing games seem like bad ideas that have long outlived
> their usefulness. FWIW, I do own and use a rangefinder camera, though.


For the crappy images part, let me refer you to Kertesz, HCB,
Winogrand... .

I think the distinction is between the lag, however slight, due to AF
(and possibly wrong AF -- e.g if you're shooting through a mesh or
leaves or something) and between virtually instantaneous but slightly
off-focus shooting (trusting DOF to take care of the misfocus). I'd say
that at least for some people, the second style still holds value and
works best for them.

(Disclaimer: This comparison is mostly uncharted territory for me. As a
new owner of an autofocus body, I intend to put this to the test
sometime, i.e. shoot in both pre-focus and AF modes and see which works
better for me.)

Again, to each his own. If you can make your equipment work, then it's
fine, of course.

> See below for 5D vs. street shooting. Also, here's an essay by someone who
> does street shooting with a 5D. (I don't know if this particular article
> speaks to this question, but if you read through his essays, you'll find
> quite a bit of street shooting related stuff.)
>
> http://www.prime-junta.net/pont/Pont...me_Or_Not.html


Read that, saw the photos. I'm sure street shooters in medium or large
format exist too. Such as this guy, who admits to using a 4 x 5:

http://www.pinkheadedbug.com

My problem with the 5D is not quite the size -- it's more that it
shouts "pro camera!" from the rooftop, and you can't really carry it
under your arm without people noticing (I've seen the stares people
carrying F5's get). I personally would like to avoid that, but of
course if you don't mind it (and evidently Petteri doesn't) then good
for you. But just to stress the point, I'd guess there are plenty of
people like me who wouldn't want to shoot with a 5D.

> > Ron mentioned that people stiffen up when a camera is pointed at them
> > -- can you imagine what would happen if that camera was as big and
> > scary as a 5D?

>
> The 5D's not all that much larger than the R-D1: 142 x 88.5 x 39.5 vs. 152 x
> 113 x 75. Most of that difference is in the thickness. It is almost 1/3
> taller, though.


Accepted. I was talking more about the controls, but you're right --
the R-D1's not small. But the size difference is actually quite
pronounced, so that makes the 5D very big! And rangefinder lenses tend
to be quite small (and because of the small thickness of the body,
stick out less in front). The whole impression is more of a slightly
bloated p&s (which is an advantage) than of a professional tool.

> > And it doesn't have the controls he asks for either.

>
> If one really wanted the shot, one would just use AF/AE.


Agree that you can just preset the aperture (which is NOT something you
would leave to the auto mode, puhleez... no camera knows what DOF I
want for a shot), and either preset the shutter speed or leave it to
AE. But have mentioned issues re AF above.

> If size is of concern, the 350D's 127 x 94 x 64 mm is basically smaller and
> lighter than the R-D1. And the US$2000 left over will buy you a Cosina Bessa
> film rangefinder.


Hey, I'm using a Pentax *ist DL at the moment ... that's about as
cheapo as you can get, _and_ it's smaller than the 350D. And yes, size
as much as cost influenced that decision. 6MP works for what I want --
if you think 12.7 is essential, who am I to argue?

I can't afford shooting film, btw -- that's one of the main reasons why
I've gone digital. So there goes the Bessa! I still have a beat-up old
film SLR, to be resurrected on occasion.

> The R-D1 is built on the "Voightlander (sp?)" (actually Cosina) Bessa. The
> Bessa is a whole series of cameras, including both screw mount and M mount
> models. The term "fake Leica" seems quite appropriate.


Since Leica invented 35mm, I guess all 35mm cameras are in some sense
fake Leicas ... but further quibbling on the point seems unnecessary


> Zeiss and Rollei both have (relatively) new rangefinder cameras out; both of
> which bear more than coincidental similarity to the Bessa that the R-D1 is
> built from<g>. The Cosina-made (!!!!) "Zeiss" lenses are flipping amazing,
> by the way.


The !!!! is uncalled-for -- living in Tokyo, what car do you drive <g>?
And what if the Cosina hitmen show up at your house tomorrow?

> Unfortunately, the "Texas Leica" has been discontinued. I finally found one
> used, but didn't fall in love, so I just bought a Mamiya 7.


Congratulations

> The 5D comment was simply an example of a quality camera for the same price,
> I wasn't making a serious suggestion for street photography, but thinking
> about it, it turns out that it wouldn't be all that bad. I suppose the 350D
> plus a small prime (24/2.8 or 35/2.0) might be a reasonable approach for
> someone who thinks they don't need the image quality. But the better AF,
> better low-light performance, and higher resolution would make the 5D +
> 35/2.0 or 50/1.4 the better tool for street photography. The 5D's AF point
> pattern is more compact than the 350D/30D pattern, making it quite
> reasonable for street photography in which one is aiming only roughly. (I'd
> worry about false hits by the extreme left and right focus points with the
> 350D.) And the extra resolution would allow you to crop, so you wouldn't
> have to worry about exact framing.


The cropping of street photographs is a very dicey ethical issue! While
I'll keep my mouth shut on this one, there are plenty of photogs who'll
want to break all that Zeiss/Cosina glass on your head for saying that
.

There's absolutely no doubt the 5D is one of the best imaging tools.
But I don't think I'd be comfortable doing street-shooting with it,
even if I had the money to buy one.

Cheers
Sid

 
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Neil Ellwood
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      03-23-2006
On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 08:20:15 +0100, Alfred Molon wrote:

> In article <(E-Mail Removed) .com>,
> (E-Mail Removed) says...
>> Thanks,
>> Ron

>
> Olympus E330, the first DSLR with live preview.

Interesting - how do you see that without looking?
--
Neil
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