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EOS 3D with 1DsM2

 
 
MarkČ
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      02-19-2006
Johan W. Elzenga wrote:
> "Mark"" <mjmorgan(lowest even number here)@cox..net> wrote:
>
>> They wouldn't be doing that, though.
>> -I will likely never spend $7000 on a camera body...
>> ...but I might spend $4000-$4500.
>> There really is a HUGE gap between Canon's full-frame offerings.
>> The 5D is $3000...the 1DsM2 is a whopping $7000.
>> I see TONS of room in there for a mid-range FF offering.
>>
>> If they'd offer a 5D-type sensor...with built-in grip and
>> sealing...but without many of the 1-series bells and whistles...I
>> would gladly fork over an extra $1000+ over the 5D. As it is
>> now...I'm buying neither the 5D nor the 1DsM2.

>
> Right. And if the price of the 3D turns out to be $5000, you gladly
> wait for the 4D? The question for Canon is: Is the 1DsII still worth
> the $3000 difference if a 3D would have most of what the 1DsII has,
> except for a few more megapixels and a few 'bells and whistles'?


There are other significant things that could still differentiate these.
CF+SD cards.
Much more complete viewfinder
Higher capacity battery system
More robust body
Filing capabilities that use the second rear-facing LCD
and more.

To argue against the logic of a 3D, you need to come up with an argument
against Canon offering the film version of the 3. They saw a place for it,
and continue to produce it along side their 1V to this day.
The placement is very similar in concept.

Unless you think Canon made a big mistake with the film 3, I don't see where
the logic is to argue against a digital 3 that is similarly placed in the
digital line.

>For
> many people it may not, and that would mean that Canon would shoot
> itself in the foot with the 3D. It would stop the sales of the 1DsII
> almost completely.


At 13MP...no SD card...lesser viewfinder...lesser build...lesser
battery...and etc.?
No way.
Especially not when their updated 1Ds MIII will likely bump up to 18-20MP.

>Canon might just as well bring the price of the
> 1DsII down to $5000.


They won't. Instead, they'll replace it...just as they did the 1Ds.

>> If they were to offer a 3D, they'd make a sale to people like
>> me...who have resisted both the 5D and 1 series.
>> That's money Canon gets that I otherwise keep in my wallet.
>> -Makes a great deal of sense to me.

>
> I'm not saying the 3D will never be; I just don't think it will come
> so soon after the 5D. And I'm saying that picture is a fake, even if
> the 3D turns out to be real after all.


I agree it's fake.

> Anyway, let's wait and see, shall we?


We shall.



 
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David Dyer-Bennet
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      02-19-2006
"MarkČ" <mjmorgan(lowest even number here)@cox..net> writes:

> Kinon O'Cann wrote:
> > I think it's a fake, but not nearly as well done as all those fakes
> > of the 5D last fall.
> >
> >

>
>
> Right.
> -Though I am now convinced that it is indeed just a very good fake image.
> Canon **should** release something like this, though.
>
> To those who say it makes no sense...
> ...How do you then explain Canon's release of the EOS 3?
> It was similarly "unnecessary" by similar logic.
> To the contrary...they sold 3's to people like me...who wouldn't spring for
> the 1N, but for whom a rugged, slightly lesser body made sense.
>
> It made sense to release a mid-range "pro-ish," mostly-sealed body
> then...and it makes sense now.
> -And the 5D isn't it.
> There's room for the 3D...absolutely.


Furthermore, that's exactly the position the Nikon D200 occupies, and
it seems to be selling as well as their production rate will allow; it
does appear to be a viable spot in the marketplace.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, <(E-Mail Removed)>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>
 
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Johan W. Elzenga
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      02-19-2006
David Dyer-Bennet <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> > It made sense to release a mid-range "pro-ish," mostly-sealed body
> > then...and it makes sense now.
> > -And the 5D isn't it.
> > There's room for the 3D...absolutely.

>
> Furthermore, that's exactly the position the Nikon D200 occupies, and
> it seems to be selling as well as their production rate will allow; it
> does appear to be a viable spot in the marketplace.


The Nikon is half the price of a 5D. The 3D would be more expensive than
the 5D, if the numbering continues to make any sense. Yes, there is room
for a competitor to the D200, but the '3D' couldn't be that competitor.
The '30D' or '35D', with 10 or 12 MP and a 1.3x or 1.6x crop could be.

We'll know more on tuesday...


--
Johan W. Elzenga johan<<at>>johanfoto.nl
Editor / Photographer http://www.johanfoto.nl
 
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Johan W. Elzenga
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      02-19-2006
"Mark"" <mjmorgan(lowest even number here)@cox..net> wrote:

> > For many people it may not, and that would mean that Canon would shoot
> > itself in the foot with the 3D. It would stop the sales of the 1DsII
> > almost completely.

>
> At 13MP...no SD card...lesser viewfinder...lesser build...lesser
> battery...and etc.?
> No way.


I have both a 1DsII and a 5D, and I can tell you that the difference
between 13 MP and 17MP is much less than it sounds. The 1DsII is 4992
pixels wide, the 5D is 4372. That's only 12.4% less. The SD card? Nice,
but I never use it. Lesser build? A sealed 3D would come much closer
than the 5D is now. Lesser battery? Not much if the 3D would look as
suggested in that fake picture.

> Especially not when their updated 1Ds MIII will likely bump up to 18-20MP.


And that's why I think that is the path Canon will follow. They will
first upgrade the 1DsII to make the difference even bigger, and then
they will place the 3D between the 1DsIII and the 5D. Not the other way
around.


--
Johan W. Elzenga johan<<at>>johanfoto.nl
Editor / Photographer http://www.johanfoto.nl
 
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John A. Stovall
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      02-19-2006
On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 23:50:31 +0100, http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed)lid (Johan W.
Elzenga) wrote:

>David Dyer-Bennet <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>> > It made sense to release a mid-range "pro-ish," mostly-sealed body
>> > then...and it makes sense now.
>> > -And the 5D isn't it.
>> > There's room for the 3D...absolutely.

>>
>> Furthermore, that's exactly the position the Nikon D200 occupies, and
>> it seems to be selling as well as their production rate will allow; it
>> does appear to be a viable spot in the marketplace.

>
>The Nikon is half the price of a 5D. The 3D would be more expensive than
>the 5D, if the numbering continues to make any sense. Yes, there is room
>for a competitor to the D200, but the '3D' couldn't be that competitor.
>The '30D' or '35D', with 10 or 12 MP and a 1.3x or 1.6x crop could be.


We can be sure it won't be a 1.3. The 1DIIN is proablity the last 1.3
crop Canon will make. We'll see either Full Frame or 1.6 crops in the
dSLR's. To get the frame rate up you might get an option for a crop
via firmware on the FF but it won't be a dedicated 1.3 sensor.


************************************************** ********

"A combat photographer should be able to make you see the
color of blood in black and white"


David Douglas Duncan
Speaking on why in Vietnam
he worked only in black and white
http://www.hrc.utexas.edu/exhibitions/online/ddd/
 
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Annika1980
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      02-20-2006
From: MarkČ lowest even number here

>I agree it's fake.


In that case, you got a bet. Pay me the $10.

 
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MarkČ
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      02-20-2006
Johan W. Elzenga wrote:
> "Mark"" <mjmorgan(lowest even number here)@cox..net> wrote:
>
>>> For many people it may not, and that would mean that Canon would
>>> shoot itself in the foot with the 3D. It would stop the sales of
>>> the 1DsII almost completely.

>>
>> At 13MP...no SD card...lesser viewfinder...lesser build...lesser
>> battery...and etc.?
>> No way.

>
> I have both a 1DsII and a 5D, and I can tell you that the difference
> between 13 MP and 17MP is much less than it sounds.


True, but a threshhold hit by the 1Ds2 hits for many pros is that it creates
non-up-sampled Tiffs over the 50MB requirements that are typical of many
photo agencies. I personally talked with pros who bought the 1Ds2 without
hesitation for this specific reason as the clincher.

>The 1DsII is 4992
> pixels wide, the 5D is 4372. That's only 12.4% less. The SD card?
> Nice, but I never use it. Lesser build? A sealed 3D would come much
> closer than the 5D is now. Lesser battery? Not much if the 3D would
> look as suggested in that fake picture.
>
>> Especially not when their updated 1Ds MIII will likely bump up to
>> 18-20MP.

>
> And that's why I think that is the path Canon will follow. They will
> first upgrade the 1DsII to make the difference even bigger, and then
> they will place the 3D between the 1DsIII and the 5D. Not the other
> way around.


Then we basically have very little to disagree on.
I don't feel like Canon is necessarily on the immediate verge of releasing a
"3D" or the like, but it won't surprise me if we see something like it by
August.
On the other hand...Didn't Canon release the film 3 before they released the
1V (if I'm remembering correctly??). Personally, I think there's a good
chance we'll see a new 1DsIII in the near-immediate future, for a couple of
reasons. For one, I think Canon would love to bring out a higher res 1Ds2
as soon as possible so as to convince many MF types that even the new 20+MP
digital backs recently developed are "unnecessary" and could perhaps sway
people away from a renewed interest in MF...to Canon's FF.


 
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Johan W. Elzenga
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      02-20-2006
John A. Stovall <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> >> Furthermore, that's exactly the position the Nikon D200 occupies, and
> >> it seems to be selling as well as their production rate will allow; it
> >> does appear to be a viable spot in the marketplace.

> >
> >The Nikon is half the price of a 5D. The 3D would be more expensive than
> >the 5D, if the numbering continues to make any sense. Yes, there is room
> >for a competitor to the D200, but the '3D' couldn't be that competitor.
> >The '30D' or '35D', with 10 or 12 MP and a 1.3x or 1.6x crop could be.

>
> We can be sure it won't be a 1.3. The 1DIIN is proablity the last 1.3
> crop Canon will make. We'll see either Full Frame or 1.6 crops in the
> dSLR's. To get the frame rate up you might get an option for a crop
> via firmware on the FF but it won't be a dedicated 1.3 sensor.


I agree that 1.6x is most likely for the '30D' or '35D'. First of all it
would make it possible to really compete on price with these models, and
secondly a 1.3x crop would downplay the significance of full frame, so
it would hurt 5D sales. And finally it would **** off anyone who bought
special cropped lenses for their 20D, and these are the people who are
supposed to upgrade to the 30/35D.


--
Johan W. Elzenga johan<<at>>johanfoto.nl
Editor / Photographer http://www.johanfoto.nl
 
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John A. Stovall
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      02-20-2006
On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 09:49:44 +0100, (E-Mail Removed)lid (Johan W.
Elzenga) wrote:

>John A. Stovall <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>> >> Furthermore, that's exactly the position the Nikon D200 occupies, and
>> >> it seems to be selling as well as their production rate will allow; it
>> >> does appear to be a viable spot in the marketplace.
>> >
>> >The Nikon is half the price of a 5D. The 3D would be more expensive than
>> >the 5D, if the numbering continues to make any sense. Yes, there is room
>> >for a competitor to the D200, but the '3D' couldn't be that competitor.
>> >The '30D' or '35D', with 10 or 12 MP and a 1.3x or 1.6x crop could be.

>>
>> We can be sure it won't be a 1.3. The 1DIIN is proablity the last 1.3
>> crop Canon will make. We'll see either Full Frame or 1.6 crops in the
>> dSLR's. To get the frame rate up you might get an option for a crop
>> via firmware on the FF but it won't be a dedicated 1.3 sensor.

>
>I agree that 1.6x is most likely for the '30D' or '35D'. First of all it
>would make it possible to really compete on price with these models, and
>secondly a 1.3x crop would downplay the significance of full frame, so
>it would hurt 5D sales. And finally it would **** off anyone who bought
>special cropped lenses for their 20D, and these are the people who are
>supposed to upgrade to the 30/35D.


Not this 20D owner. I didn't buy any EF-S glass and got my upgrade
last Thursday, a 5D.
************************************************** ********

"A combat photographer should be able to make you see the
color of blood in black and white"


David Douglas Duncan
Speaking on why in Vietnam
he worked only in black and white
http://www.hrc.utexas.edu/exhibitions/online/ddd/
 
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David Dyer-Bennet
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      02-20-2006
(E-Mail Removed)lid (Johan W. Elzenga) writes:

> David Dyer-Bennet <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
> > > It made sense to release a mid-range "pro-ish," mostly-sealed body
> > > then...and it makes sense now.
> > > -And the 5D isn't it.
> > > There's room for the 3D...absolutely.

> >
> > Furthermore, that's exactly the position the Nikon D200 occupies, and
> > it seems to be selling as well as their production rate will allow; it
> > does appear to be a viable spot in the marketplace.

>
> The Nikon is half the price of a 5D. The 3D would be more expensive than
> the 5D, if the numbering continues to make any sense. Yes, there is room
> for a competitor to the D200, but the '3D' couldn't be that competitor.
> The '30D' or '35D', with 10 or 12 MP and a 1.3x or 1.6x crop could be.


It's not the same spot in the market, but the low-end-pro body of the
D200 is a big part of its appeal to lots of people, from the comments
I see.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, <(E-Mail Removed)>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>
 
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