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A Battery Warning query

 
 
Joseph Meehan
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      08-24-2005
ASAAR wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 19:57:27 -0400, Morton Linder wrote:
>
>> An earlier discussion of Lithium AA cells regarding film cameras a
>> few years ago revealed that, due to lower internal resistance, Li
>> cells can deliver a higher current flow (same voltage) which can
>> heat up and
>> destroy some sensitive electronic components.

>
> Absolutely not true. At a given voltage (under load), the camera
> will draw the same current, whether the source is alkaline or
> lithium, whether they are AAA, AA, C or D cells.


But the issue is it appears that Lithium batteries deliver a higher
voltage under load, and therefore have the potential to deliver more
current.

> Under load, the
> voltage delivered by fresh alkaline batteries is not substantially
> higher than that of lithium batteries, but in any case the high
> current draw isn't continuous. The components that might get
> excessively warm or hot would be batteries, flash tubes and the
> power supply used to charge the flash's capacitors. Operating
> cameras in high temperatures would probably be worse, but except for
> the usual fine print disclaimers at the back of manuals where
> operating environment parameters are listed, manufacturers rarely go
> out of their way to warn about the effects of heat.


In general I would agree but the OP was asking about a specific camera
with a warning.

>
>
>> IMHO, Li AA cells have almost no place in photography; they are 10x
>> more expensive than alkalines and give only 2-3x the number of
>> pictures per cell.

>
> They do have a place in photography. With modern cameras that
> don't consume huge currents, they might provide only 2 to 3 times
> longer operating life. But with older, power hungry cameras they
> can provide more than 10x the life of alkalines. They're also the
> only battery type available for cameras that don't suffer tremendous
> performance loss in very cold weather. They're also about 10x more
> expensive than alkalines only for those that shop carefully. With
> the prices most people pay for alkaline batteries, they're more like
> 3 to 6 times more expensive, not 10x.
>
> Another advantage I haven't heard mentioned concerns battery
> leakage. I don't know if lithium batteries can leak, and if they do
> how corrosive it might be. What I do know is that any camera or
> other electrical device that uses alkalines is checked by me at
> least several times/year for leakage. But I have a very old, rarely
> used Stylus (film camera) that is powered by a lithium battery. It
> still provides lots of power and has been in the camera so long I no
> longer remember when it was last changed. At least 10 years ago.
> And I don't check the battery in that one more frequently than every
> 4 or 5 years or so.


--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit


 
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Ken Hartlen
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      08-24-2005
Hi Larry,

My FinePix A203/A303 manual says "Do not to use AA-size manganese, lithium,
or Ni-Cd batteries in your FinePix A203/A303 because the heat generated by
the batteries could damage the camera or cause malfuctions."

Ken

"Larry" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:430b194a$(E-Mail Removed)...
> I have recently purchased a vertical hold "grip" for my Canon Élan II
> camera. It also can hold AA batteries to replace the regular 6-V Lithium
> normal grip battery. It came with a warning to use Alkaline batteries

only,
> NOT Lithium AA cells as camera damage might result. How/why?
>
> Thanks,
> Larry
>



 
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Dave Martindale
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      08-24-2005
"Joel Dorfan" <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:
>There is no reason why you should not be able to use Lithium cells. The
>voltage is the same as Alkalines just better extreme temp. performance,
>different discharge characteristics and a 15 year shelf life.


No, the voltage is higher as well. It's something like 1.65 V when new.
Alkalines are more like 1.5 V, and that drops under load. If a device
is designed with "fresh alkalines" as its maximum voltage reference, it
could conceivably be damaged by using lithium AAs.

>The 2CR5 or 223 that you are replacing is already a Lithium pack made up of
>lithium cells.


Those are completely different lithium chemistry, with 3 V per cell.
Two 3V cells give about 6 V, just like 4 AA alkalines, and less than 4
AA lithiums at about 6.6 V.

>LiIon's if you could get them in that size would be bad as they are
>nominally 3.6v per cell.


LiIon is a *third* different "lithium" chemistry, not related to the two
previously mentioned. They're about 3.7 V nominal, but up to 4.2 V at
end of a full charge.

>However as a previous poster said, the better choice would be to use NiMh
>rechargeables, four in the camera, four in the charger and 4 alkalines as
>backup.


Good suggestion.

Dave
 
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Pete D
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      08-24-2005

"Joseph Meehan" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:IxPOe.43918$(E-Mail Removed).. .
> ASAAR wrote:
>> On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 19:57:27 -0400, Morton Linder wrote:
>>
>>> An earlier discussion of Lithium AA cells regarding film cameras a
>>> few years ago revealed that, due to lower internal resistance, Li
>>> cells can deliver a higher current flow (same voltage) which can
>>> heat up and
>>> destroy some sensitive electronic components.

>>
>> Absolutely not true. At a given voltage (under load), the camera
>> will draw the same current, whether the source is alkaline or
>> lithium, whether they are AAA, AA, C or D cells.

>
> But the issue is it appears that Lithium batteries deliver a higher
> voltage under load, and therefore have the potential to deliver more
> current.


And therefore the higher voltage should equate to lower current!


 
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Prometheus
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      08-24-2005
In article <IxPOe.43918$(E-Mail Removed)>, Joseph Meehan
<(E-Mail Removed)> writes
> But the issue is it appears that Lithium batteries deliver a higher
>voltage under load, and therefore have the potential to deliver more
>current.


The camera will use a regulator(s) to supply the various circuits inside
it with power. If it is a simple linear reg. then it will run warmer
with a higher battery voltage because it has to drop more volts, the
current is unaltered although it is taking higher power from the
battery. If it is a switching reg. then for higher a battery voltage
the input current will reduce thus maintaining a consistent power
dissipation in the reg. and power consumption from the battery. Since
switching regs are much more efficient and can operate where the input
is less than the required output (or both +ve & -ve lines are required)
they are preferentially used.
--
Ian G8ILZ
 
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Joseph Meehan
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      08-24-2005
Pete D wrote:
> "Joseph Meehan" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:IxPOe.43918$(E-Mail Removed).. .
>> ASAAR wrote:
>>> On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 19:57:27 -0400, Morton Linder wrote:
>>>
>>>> An earlier discussion of Lithium AA cells regarding film cameras a
>>>> few years ago revealed that, due to lower internal resistance, Li
>>>> cells can deliver a higher current flow (same voltage) which can
>>>> heat up and
>>>> destroy some sensitive electronic components.
>>>
>>> Absolutely not true. At a given voltage (under load), the camera
>>> will draw the same current, whether the source is alkaline or
>>> lithium, whether they are AAA, AA, C or D cells.

>>
>> But the issue is it appears that Lithium batteries deliver a
>> higher voltage under load, and therefore have the potential to
>> deliver more current.

>
> And therefore the higher voltage should equate to lower current!


It would IF there was something to limit it, but there may not be
anything limiting it.


--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit


 
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BJ in Texas
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      08-24-2005
Ken Hartlen <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
|| Hi Larry,
||
|| My FinePix A203/A303 manual says "Do not to use AA-size
|| manganese, lithium, or Ni-Cd batteries in your FinePix
|| A203/A303 because the heat generated by the batteries could
|| damage the camera or cause malfuctions."
||

Same statement is in the manual for my old FinePix 4700.

--
--
"When you're arguing with a fool, make sure he isn't doing the
same thing." -- Unknown


 
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Dave Martindale
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      08-24-2005
"Pete D" <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:

>> But the issue is it appears that Lithium batteries deliver a higher
>> voltage under load, and therefore have the potential to deliver more
>> current.


>And therefore the higher voltage should equate to lower current!


Why? This depends entirely on the characteristics of the load.

If the battery is feeding a switching voltage regulator, increasing the
input voltage reduces the input current while the power remains
approximately the same. This might be true for the power used to drive
the electronics in the camera.

If the battery is powering a constant-current load, then the current
remains about the same while voltage rises.

And if the battery is powering a constant-impedance load, higher voltage
also produces higher current. The electronic flash circuitry in the
camera probably behaves this way. Higher battery voltage probably gives
faster flash recharging, but also puts more stress on the flash
circuitry.

In the past, when NiCd batteries were uncommon (and NiMH unheard of),
some manufacturers built external flash units that were designed to use
alkaline batteries, and the internal resistance of the batteries was
what limited recharge current to a level the circuitry was designed for.
If you used NiCd batteries in these flash units, they would overheat.

I'd call that bad design, but it did happen.

Dave
 
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Dave Martindale
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      08-24-2005
http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed) writes:

>The camera will use a regulator(s) to supply the various circuits inside
>it with power. If it is a simple linear reg. then it will run warmer
>with a higher battery voltage because it has to drop more volts, the
>current is unaltered although it is taking higher power from the
>battery. If it is a switching reg. then for higher a battery voltage
>the input current will reduce thus maintaining a consistent power
>dissipation in the reg. and power consumption from the battery. Since
>switching regs are much more efficient and can operate where the input
>is less than the required output (or both +ve & -ve lines are required)
>they are preferentially used.


For the electronics power, you're probably right. But the electronic
flash circuitry probably does not go through the regulator, because the
current demand is so high and because the supply voltage doesn't need to
be regulated. Similarly, motors may be powered directly from the supply
voltage instead of regulated power.

Dave
 
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Bob Salomon
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      08-24-2005
In article <dei63m$apt$(E-Mail Removed)>,
(E-Mail Removed) (Dave Martindale) wrote:

> some manufacturers built external flash units that were designed to use
> alkaline batteries, and the internal resistance of the batteries was
> what limited recharge current to a level the circuitry was designed for.
> If you used NiCd batteries in these flash units, they would overheat.
>
> I'd call that bad design, but it did happen.


Or worse.

Sea and Sea were selling electronic flash units for Scuba that were not
vented properly for NiMh cells. If one used NiCd cells everything was
fine. But some users of NiMh cells had their flash explode during use.

Today their strobe are vented for NiMh cells but you should always check
with the manufacturer of the item you want to use why they specifically
tell you to use a specific type of cell.

--
To reply no_ HPMarketing Corp.
 
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