Velocity Reviews - Computer Hardware Reviews

Velocity Reviews > Newsgroups > Computing > Digital Photography > Digital workflow - need some help please

Reply
Thread Tools

Digital workflow - need some help please

 
 
Bill Hilton
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      08-11-2005
>> Bill wrote ...
>>
>> Most of the digital gurus are recommending a two pass
>> sharpening workflow with digital cameras ...


>CFB replies ...
>
>Who are these digital "guru's". (Appeal to popularity)


Bruce Fraser is one, co-author of such books as "Real World Photoshop"
and "Real World Color Management". Chuck Westfall is another, Sr.
Technical Marketing Manager for Canon USA. Deke McClelland is a third,
author of "Photoshop Bible" and popular Photoshop training videos.

Westfall gave the specific recommendation for pre-sharpening with Canon
Pro bodies (300%, 0.3 radius, 0 threshold) in this PDF (it's about a MB
so will take a while to download but it's worth it if you have a Canon
Pro camera ... he discusses the USM settings in two places) ...
http://www.photoworkshop.com/canon/EOS_Digital.pdf

Fraser has a web article out describing the two pass sharpening
workflow at
http://www.creativepro.com/story/fea...l?origin=story ... to
quote a bit ... "Several years ago, I started playing with the notion
of doing two separate sharpening passes. The first, pre-sharpening pass
aims simply to restore the sharpness lost when turning the image into
pixels, whether by scanning or direct digital capture. The second pass
is then tailored to the particular printing process that will be used."

You can read Deke's thoughts (which are similar) in his book(s) or
videos if still not convinced.

>> The first light pass is to restore the sharpness lost with the
>> anti-aliasing filter blur and is done when you first open the image,


>Opening the images changes it?


Uh, no ... shooting the image thru an anti-alias filter blurs it a bit
so the first USM pass is aimed at restoring the sharpness lost from the
filter. "Opening the images" has nothing to do with it. Then later on
in the workflow, after all the digital edits and resizing are done, you
sharpen more aggressively for the final output size.

>Can someone help me out here?


We're trying, but judging from your attacks on Roger Clark and your
inability to grasp fairly simple concepts like two pass sharpening it
appears to be a losing battle.

Bill

 
Reply With Quote
 
 
 
 
JD
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      08-11-2005
> I think you missed the point.
>
> When do you turn a "pro"? And what are "serious publications"? I ask
> these things because it highlights your logical fallacies.
>
> Ad Hominem
> Appeal to Authority
> Appeal to Popularity


Let's leave it there CFB. I'm trying to help someone, not to enter into a
useless debate. Go and pick a fight with someone else.

Cheers.

Jean.


 
Reply With Quote
 
 
 
 
Paul Flackett
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      08-11-2005
In message <(E-Mail Removed) .com>, Bill
Hilton <(E-Mail Removed)> writes
>>> Bill wrote ...
>>>
>>> Most of the digital gurus are recommending a two pass
>>> sharpening workflow with digital cameras ...

>
>>CFB replies ...
>>
>>Who are these digital "guru's". (Appeal to popularity)

>
>Bruce Fraser is one, co-author of such books as "Real World Photoshop"
>and "Real World Color Management". Chuck Westfall is another, Sr.
>Technical Marketing Manager for Canon USA. Deke McClelland is a third,
>author of "Photoshop Bible" and popular Photoshop training videos.
>

<snip>

Hey, you guys are seriously helpful. Thankyou all very much. I shall
read all these articles and have a play, although that's all I seem to
do just lately I'll report back on my progress.

Could you just clarify one thing for me Bill. You mention the
overly-aggressive default settings in RSE. I haven't used it in anger
yet but the sharpening in my version (2005 1.1.3 build 15) seems to be
via a slider and totally under user control, ie. no default ? There are
however 7 'Appearance' starting points (eg. outdoor normal) which you
may be referring to, but again these are optional, the default starting
point being 'flat look'.

Regards,

--
Paul Flackett

 
Reply With Quote
 
Ed Ruf
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      08-11-2005
On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 22:49:14 +0100, in rec.photo.digital Paul Flackett
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:


>Could you just clarify one thing for me Bill. You mention the
>overly-aggressive default settings in RSE. I haven't used it in anger
>yet but the sharpening in my version (2005 1.1.3 build 15) seems to be
>via a slider and totally under user control, ie. no default ? There are
>however 7 'Appearance' starting points (eg. outdoor normal) which you
>may be referring to, but again these are optional, the default starting
>point being 'flat look'.


You have to be cognizant that a zero setting in any of the sliders in RSE
does not necessarily mean no alteration using the algorithm in question.
IE, sharpening set to zero, does not mean no sharpening is applied.
----------
Ed Ruf Lifetime AMA# 344007 ((E-Mail Removed))
See images taken with my CP-990/5700 & D70 at
http://edwardgruf.com/Digital_Photog...ral/index.html
 
Reply With Quote
 
JD
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      08-11-2005
> Could you just clarify one thing for me Bill. You mention the
> overly-aggressive default settings in RSE. I haven't used it in anger yet
> but the sharpening in my version (2005 1.1.3 build 15) seems to be via a
> slider and totally under user control, ie. no default ? There are however
> 7 'Appearance' starting points (eg. outdoor normal) which you may be
> referring to, but again these are optional, the default starting point
> being 'flat look'.
>
> Regards,
>
> --
> Paul Flackett
>


Zero sharpening means default (minimum) sharpening. If you want no
sharpening at all, you must move the slider all the way to the left.

There is a help file (if my memory serves me right, I think you can download
it from the RSE site). I found it pretty clear and well worth reading.

Jean.


 
Reply With Quote
 
Bill Hilton
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      08-11-2005
> Paul Flackett writes ...
>
>You mention the overly-aggressive default settings in RSE.
>I haven't used it in anger yet but the sharpening in my version
>(2005 1.1.3 build 15) seems to be via a slider and totally
>under user control, ie. no default ?


Click the green button on top left of menu bar and then click
'processing parameters' to bring up a group of pre-sets that are
applied in addition to the slider in the task bar you mention. As Ed
and JD mention, even at zero there's some sharpening going on so you
need to set this to -50 to minimize it.

>'Appearance' starting points (eg. outdoor normal) which you
>may be referring to, but again these are optional, the default
>starting point being 'flat look'.


These are color tonal curves.

>you guys are seriously helpful. Thankyou all very much. I shall
>read all these articles and have a play


Glad to help.

Bill

 
Reply With Quote
 
Padme
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      08-12-2005
In article <42fbbd03$0$1207$(E-Mail Removed)>,
"JD" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> > I think you missed the point.
> >
> > When do you turn a "pro"? And what are "serious publications"? I ask
> > these things because it highlights your logical fallacies.
> >
> > Ad Hominem
> > Appeal to Authority
> > Appeal to Popularity

>
> Let's leave it there CFB. I'm trying to help someone, not to enter into a
> useless debate. Go and pick a fight with someone else.
>
> Cheers.
>
> Jean.


He was trying to help someone too.

--

http://www.4truths.com/
 
Reply With Quote
 
CFB
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      08-12-2005
In article <(E-Mail Removed) .com>,
"Bill Hilton" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> >> Bill wrote ...
> >>
> >> Most of the digital gurus are recommending a two pass
> >> sharpening workflow with digital cameras ...

>
> >CFB replies ...
> >
> >Who are these digital "guru's". (Appeal to popularity)

>
> Bruce Fraser is one,


Hey! Look up there! There goes the point!

> co-author of such books as "Real World Photoshop"
> and "Real World Color Management". Chuck Westfall is another, Sr.
> Technical Marketing Manager for Canon USA. Deke McClelland is a third,
> author of "Photoshop Bible" and popular Photoshop training videos.
>
> Westfall gave the specific recommendation for pre-sharpening with Canon
> Pro bodies (300%, 0.3 radius, 0 threshold) in this PDF (it's about a MB
> so will take a while to download but it's worth it if you have a Canon
> Pro camera ... he discusses the USM settings in two places) ...
> http://www.photoworkshop.com/canon/EOS_Digital.pdf
>
> Fraser has a web article out describing the two pass sharpening
> workflow at
> http://www.creativepro.com/story/fea...l?origin=story ... to
> quote a bit ... "Several years ago, I started playing with the notion
> of doing two separate sharpening passes. The first, pre-sharpening pass
> aims simply to restore the sharpness lost when turning the image into
> pixels, whether by scanning or direct digital capture. The second pass
> is then tailored to the particular printing process that will be used."
>
> You can read Deke's thoughts (which are similar) in his book(s) or
> videos if still not convinced.
>
> >> The first light pass is to restore the sharpness lost with the
> >> anti-aliasing filter blur and is done when you first open the image,

>
> >Opening the images changes it?

>
> Uh, no ... shooting the image thru an anti-alias filter blurs it a bit
> so the first USM pass is aimed at restoring the sharpness lost from the
> filter. "Opening the images" has nothing to do with it. Then later on
> in the workflow, after all the digital edits and resizing are done, you
> sharpen more aggressively for the final output size.


Dude, I knew that. I was asking the OP to explain. But thanks for
explaining it to him.

>
> >Can someone help me out here?

>
> We're trying, but judging from your attacks on Roger Clark and your
> inability to grasp fairly simple concepts like two pass sharpening


http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/attack.htm
http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/posthoc.htm

(This is not an attack. If you read the link you might understand what I
have been talking about. These guys might be, and probably are, very
knowledgable, but what you write in support of them is poor.)

> it
> appears to be a losing battle.
>
> Bill


Maybe you guys should read something more then photography books. I
understand most digital techniques but you don't know what is good until
you do it. And if you treat someone as a guru and attempt to copy you
will never do anything new. See? Wait, maybe I'M a guru?

Anyway, if digital is so great why do you have to do sharpening after
you take the picture? :^P

And ease up man, I'm not attacking, i'm lovin'.

--

http://home.nc.rr.com/christianbonanno/
 
Reply With Quote
 
CFB
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      08-12-2005
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
Paul Flackett <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> In message <(E-Mail Removed) .com>, Bill
> Hilton <(E-Mail Removed)> writes
> >>> Bill wrote ...
> >>>
> >>> Most of the digital gurus are recommending a two pass
> >>> sharpening workflow with digital cameras ...

> >
> >>CFB replies ...
> >>
> >>Who are these digital "guru's". (Appeal to popularity)

> >
> >Bruce Fraser is one, co-author of such books as "Real World Photoshop"
> >and "Real World Color Management". Chuck Westfall is another, Sr.
> >Technical Marketing Manager for Canon USA. Deke McClelland is a third,
> >author of "Photoshop Bible" and popular Photoshop training videos.
> >

> <snip>
>
> Hey, you guys are seriously helpful. Thankyou all very much. I shall
> read all these articles and have a play, although that's all I seem to
> do just lately I'll report back on my progress.
>
> Could you just clarify one thing for me Bill. You mention the
> overly-aggressive default settings in RSE. I haven't used it in anger
> yet but the sharpening in my version (2005 1.1.3 build 15) seems to be
> via a slider and totally under user control, ie. no default ? There are
> however 7 'Appearance' starting points (eg. outdoor normal) which you
> may be referring to, but again these are optional, the default starting
> point being 'flat look'.


That's it. The world has just ended. :^P

--

http://home.nc.rr.com/christianbonanno/
 
Reply With Quote
 
Ed Ruf
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      08-12-2005
On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 00:25:53 GMT, in rec.photo.digital Padme
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>He was trying to help someone too.


Really?

From: Padme <(E-Mail Removed)>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.digital
Subject: Re: Digital workflow - need some help please
User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.4 (PPC Mac OS X)
Message-ID:
<(E-Mail Removed)>
Lines: 24
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 00:25:53 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.57.11.186
X-Complaints-To: http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed)
X-Trace: twister.southeast.rr.com 1123806353 66.57.11.186 (Thu, 11 Aug 2005
20:25:53 EDT)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 20:25:53 EDT
Organization: Road Runner - NC


vs

From: CFB <(E-Mail Removed)>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.digital
Subject: Re: Digital workflow - need some help please
Message-ID: <(E-Mail Removed)>
Lines: 31
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 19:43:55 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.57.11.186
X-Complaints-To: (E-Mail Removed)
X-Trace: twister.southeast.rr.com 1123789435 66.57.11.186 (Thu, 11 Aug 2005
15:43:55 EDT)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 15:43:55 EDT
Organization: Road Runner - NC

and guess what one finds searching this IP on google? Do us all a favor
and please just leave it be.
----------
Ed Ruf Lifetime AMA# 344007 ((E-Mail Removed))
See images taken with my CP-990/5700 & D70 at
http://edwardgruf.com/Digital_Photog...ral/index.html
 
Reply With Quote
 
 
 
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Windows Workflow Foundation Web Workflow Approvals Starter Kit: problem Andrzej Jaworek ASP .Net 1 07-23-2007 11:32 AM
digital workflow nk Digital Photography 2 07-16-2005 05:52 AM
Faster digital workflow sought Jimmy Digital Photography 29 10-02-2004 12:57 PM
Re: Sports Illustrated digital workflow Alan Browne Digital Photography 6 04-05-2004 07:24 PM
Re: Sports Illustrated digital workflow Azzz1588 Digital Photography 10 04-05-2004 03:38 AM



Advertisments