«

After getting fed up with highly inconsistent flash
performance in museum and car show environments with my
Nikon Coolpix 5700 and Sunpak 433D external, I plunked
down $1,400 for an 8800 and Sb-800 external.

I investigated both this camera and the flash extensively
earlier this year and was convinced the new iTTl flash
exposure system would solve my problems with the 5700,
namely 1/3 of my flash pictures on Programmed Auto and
TTL on the Sunpak looked just fine, while another 1/3
were maybe 2 f/stops under, but the remainder were 5-6
stops under.

I never was able to find a root cause for this
inconsistent behavior. I could take a dozen pictures of a
particular car, all looking like the proverbial black cat
in a coal bin, then turn 10 feet away and shoot another
dozen pics of another car in the museum, which were
perfect. And, there wasn't anything obviously different,
such as backlit scenes or strong ambient lighting to
"fool" the TTL system.

Well, I took my brand new 8800 for a "test drive" this
morning at the Walter P. Chrysler Museum, in Auburn
Hills, Michigan. It is only 15 minutes from me and I get
in free as a DCX retiree, so I spend lots of time there.

Got the same 1/3 good, 1/3 OK, and 1/3 dark /on the very
same/ cars as I had shot just a week ago with my 5700!
(((-;;

So, back to my camera store for some discussion with the
manager. He checked the camera to be sure I hadn't messed
up some setting, then announced "I don't think you are
ever going to get a Nikon EVF camera to work consistently
with TTL flash, even with Nikon's own flash". WTF?!

He's more than willing to let me return the 8800 and SB-
800 if I can't get it to work to my satisfaction, at
least. His best suggestion was to take the SB-800 out of
TTL mode and use in on "Auto" mode, which supposedly
bypasses TTL communication with the camera and just does
its exposure cut-off of the length of flash pulse based
solely on its ability to judge distance to the primary
subject.

I was advised to go back to the WPC museum tomorrow, and
shoot another series of the same cars on Programmed Auto
or Aperture Priority, and let the flash do its thing on
Auto instead of TTL.

I can and will do this. But, I'm wondering if any of this
makes sense to those of you that understand TTL flash in
EVF cameras in general, and the Nikon 8800 in particular.

I don't mind the expense of the new 8800 camera as Nikon
has improved just about everything I care about visa vie
my older 5700. And, I intentionally bought the big bucks
SB-800 so Nikon couldn't cop out on me again and say the
problem is the Sunpak.

I have /no/ exposure problems in daylight with my current
5700 nor the little experience so far with the 8800. The
/big/ issues is I /want/ and EVF and I /want/ to shoot
flash in car museums, and /not/ available light on a
tripod. But, naturally, I also /want/ consistent
exposures that are within the dynamic range necessary to
post-process with quality in Paint Shop Pro 9.

I am open to any/all advice or recommendations, including
"dump the Nikon and buy XXX with YYY flash". The only
thing I don't want is anybody's DSLR because I prefer the
EVF to the SLR view and like the large attached zoom of a
top-end pro-sumer EVF.

Thanks in advance!

--
ATM, aka Jerry

Ugh, I'm glad I haven't had to deal with flash. Even DSLR users always
seem to be struggling with it. I also don't care for tripods but that
would be the next step I might try to solve this. Also, I would just try
putting it in manual and bracket till it looks right. Ultimately that's
going to give more control and understanding.


All Things Mopar wrote:

> After getting fed up with highly inconsistent flash
> performance in museum and car show environments with my
> Nikon Coolpix 5700 and Sunpak 433D external, I plunked
> down $1,400 for an 8800 and Sb-800 external.
>
> I investigated both this camera and the flash extensively
> earlier this year and was convinced the new iTTl flash
> exposure system would solve my problems with the 5700,
> namely 1/3 of my flash pictures on Programmed Auto and
> TTL on the Sunpak looked just fine, while another 1/3
> were maybe 2 f/stops under, but the remainder were 5-6
> stops under.
>
> I never was able to find a root cause for this
> inconsistent behavior. I could take a dozen pictures of a
> particular car, all looking like the proverbial black cat
> in a coal bin, then turn 10 feet away and shoot another
> dozen pics of another car in the museum, which were
> perfect. And, there wasn't anything obviously different,
> such as backlit scenes or strong ambient lighting to
> "fool" the TTL system.
>
> Well, I took my brand new 8800 for a "test drive" this
> morning at the Walter P. Chrysler Museum, in Auburn
> Hills, Michigan. It is only 15 minutes from me and I get
> in free as a DCX retiree, so I spend lots of time there.
>
> Got the same 1/3 good, 1/3 OK, and 1/3 dark /on the very
> same/ cars as I had shot just a week ago with my 5700!
> (((-;;
>
> So, back to my camera store for some discussion with the
> manager. He checked the camera to be sure I hadn't messed
> up some setting, then announced "I don't think you are
> ever going to get a Nikon EVF camera to work consistently
> with TTL flash, even with Nikon's own flash". WTF?!
>
> He's more than willing to let me return the 8800 and SB-
> 800 if I can't get it to work to my satisfaction, at
> least. His best suggestion was to take the SB-800 out of
> TTL mode and use in on "Auto" mode, which supposedly
> bypasses TTL communication with the camera and just does
> its exposure cut-off of the length of flash pulse based
> solely on its ability to judge distance to the primary
> subject.
>
> I was advised to go back to the WPC museum tomorrow, and
> shoot another series of the same cars on Programmed Auto
> or Aperture Priority, and let the flash do its thing on
> Auto instead of TTL.
>
> I can and will do this. But, I'm wondering if any of this
> makes sense to those of you that understand TTL flash in
> EVF cameras in general, and the Nikon 8800 in particular.
>
> I don't mind the expense of the new 8800 camera as Nikon
> has improved just about everything I care about visa vie
> my older 5700. And, I intentionally bought the big bucks
> SB-800 so Nikon couldn't cop out on me again and say the
> problem is the Sunpak.
>
> I have /no/ exposure problems in daylight with my current
> 5700 nor the little experience so far with the 8800. The
> /big/ issues is I /want/ and EVF and I /want/ to shoot
> flash in car museums, and /not/ available light on a
> tripod. But, naturally, I also /want/ consistent
> exposures that are within the dynamic range necessary to
> post-process with quality in Paint Shop Pro 9.
>
> I am open to any/all advice or recommendations, including
> "dump the Nikon and buy XXX with YYY flash". The only
> thing I don't want is anybody's DSLR because I prefer the
> EVF to the SLR view and like the large attached zoom of a
> top-end pro-sumer EVF.
>
> Thanks in advance!
>

--
Paul Furman
http://www.edgehill.net/1
san francisco native plants

All Things Mopar <> writes:
> I never was able to find a root cause for this inconsistent
> behavior. I could take a dozen pictures of a particular car, all
> looking like the proverbial black cat in a coal bin, then turn 10
> feet away and shoot another dozen pics of another car in the museum,
> which were perfect. And, there wasn't anything obviously different,
> such as backlit scenes or strong ambient lighting to "fool" the TTL
> system.

Maybe some specular reflection just happening to hit one of the
multi-zone sensors? I haven't heard of this happening with the
SLR/DSLR cameras though. And I don't see any inherent reason
the 5700 should be worse than a D70 at getting the right flash
exposure, if iTTL is one of its advertised features.

All Things Mopar <> writes:

> After getting fed up with highly inconsistent flash
> performance in museum and car show environments with my
> Nikon Coolpix 5700 and Sunpak 433D external, I plunked
> down $1,400 for an 8800 and Sb-800 external.
>
> I investigated both this camera and the flash extensively
> earlier this year and was convinced the new iTTl flash
> exposure system would solve my problems with the 5700,
> namely 1/3 of my flash pictures on Programmed Auto and
> TTL on the Sunpak looked just fine, while another 1/3
> were maybe 2 f/stops under, but the remainder were 5-6
> stops under.

> I never was able to find a root cause for this
> inconsistent behavior. I could take a dozen pictures of a
> particular car, all looking like the proverbial black cat
> in a coal bin, then turn 10 feet away and shoot another
> dozen pics of another car in the museum, which were
> perfect. And, there wasn't anything obviously different,
> such as backlit scenes or strong ambient lighting to
> "fool" the TTL system.

Are you sure you're watching for underexposure indications from the
flash? One possible contributing factor is the flash being unable to
produce enough power. This is more likely if you're bouncing (I can't
imagine decent photos of this sort of subject with direct on-camera
flash).

> Well, I took my brand new 8800 for a "test drive" this
> morning at the Walter P. Chrysler Museum, in Auburn
> Hills, Michigan. It is only 15 minutes from me and I get
> in free as a DCX retiree, so I spend lots of time there.
>
> Got the same 1/3 good, 1/3 OK, and 1/3 dark /on the very
> same/ cars as I had shot just a week ago with my 5700!
> (((-;;

AAAIIIEEEEEE! Oh, *man* would I be annoyed.

> So, back to my camera store for some discussion with the
> manager. He checked the camera to be sure I hadn't messed
> up some setting, then announced "I don't think you are
> ever going to get a Nikon EVF camera to work consistently
> with TTL flash, even with Nikon's own flash". WTF?!

I wonder about the reference to "EFV" camea. He may be using that
just to group the particular Nikon cameras he has that opinion about,
in which case fine. But if he's claiming there's some actual
cause-and-effect relationship between EVF and this flash problem, I'd
worry about his reliability.

> He's more than willing to let me return the 8800 and SB-
> 800 if I can't get it to work to my satisfaction, at
> least. His best suggestion was to take the SB-800 out of
> TTL mode and use in on "Auto" mode, which supposedly
> bypasses TTL communication with the camera and just does
> its exposure cut-off of the length of flash pulse based
> solely on its ability to judge distance to the primary
> subject.

Yes, auto mode will give you different behavior, and takes the camera
out of the circuit so it's *simpler* behavior. Possibly it'll
actually work better on these subjects. Only one way to find out
.

> I don't mind the expense of the new 8800 camera as Nikon
> has improved just about everything I care about visa vie
> my older 5700. And, I intentionally bought the big bucks
> SB-800 so Nikon couldn't cop out on me again and say the
> problem is the Sunpak.
>
> I have /no/ exposure problems in daylight with my current
> 5700 nor the little experience so far with the 8800. The
> /big/ issues is I /want/ and EVF and I /want/ to shoot
> flash in car museums, and /not/ available light on a
> tripod. But, naturally, I also /want/ consistent
> exposures that are within the dynamic range necessary to
> post-process with quality in Paint Shop Pro 9.

Well, if the AUTO mode works -- try it with your old flash. You may
at least be able to return the expensive SB-800. Sounds like you
might want to keep the 8800 anyway .

> I am open to any/all advice or recommendations, including
> "dump the Nikon and buy XXX with YYY flash". The only
> thing I don't want is anybody's DSLR because I prefer the
> EVF to the SLR view and like the large attached zoom of a
> top-end pro-sumer EVF.

I find that TTL works poorly with my Fuji S2 DSLR and Nikon SB-28 and
SB-80dx flashes, and end up using manual a lot, exposure compensation
a lot, and ordinary AUTO on the flash some (but it doesn't work very
well either). I'm *extremely* disappointed with this, because the TTL
flash with my N90 was *so much* better than all my previous auto-flash
experience (TTL *and* 'D' lenses). I hate losing that in digital
(though, with the preview, I can at least tell I have a problem, and
work around it; but it's still more work and slows me down, and I want
the automation to work better there).

I believe the DSLR cameras have particular problems with TTL flash
because the sensor surface has very different reflectivity from film,
so the stuff built into the film SLR bodies the DSLRs are built from
isn't happy. I think Nikon and Canon have created new flash modes to
try to address these problems (but they don't help me, not being in my
camera or flash yet).

I would have hoped that a non-DSLR wouldn't have that particular
problem, though.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd->, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>

"All Things Mopar" <> wrote in message
news:Xns9660D93BD3E1ReplyToken@216.196.97.131...
> After getting fed up with highly inconsistent flash
> performance in museum and car show environments with my
> Nikon Coolpix 5700 and Sunpak 433D external, I plunked
> down $1,400 for an 8800 and Sb-800 external.
>
> I investigated both this camera and the flash extensively
> earlier this year and was convinced the new iTTl flash
> exposure system would solve my problems with the 5700,
> namely 1/3 of my flash pictures on Programmed Auto and
> TTL on the Sunpak looked just fine, while another 1/3
> were maybe 2 f/stops under, but the remainder were 5-6
> stops under.
>
> I never was able to find a root cause for this
> inconsistent behavior. I could take a dozen pictures of a
> particular car, all looking like the proverbial black cat
> in a coal bin, then turn 10 feet away and shoot another
> dozen pics of another car in the museum, which were
> perfect. And, there wasn't anything obviously different,
> such as backlit scenes or strong ambient lighting to
> "fool" the TTL system.
>
> Well, I took my brand new 8800 for a "test drive" this
> morning at the Walter P. Chrysler Museum, in Auburn
> Hills, Michigan. It is only 15 minutes from me and I get
> in free as a DCX retiree, so I spend lots of time there.
>
> Got the same 1/3 good, 1/3 OK, and 1/3 dark /on the very
> same/ cars as I had shot just a week ago with my 5700!
> (((-;;
>
> So, back to my camera store for some discussion with the
> manager. He checked the camera to be sure I hadn't messed
> up some setting, then announced "I don't think you are
> ever going to get a Nikon EVF camera to work consistently
> with TTL flash, even with Nikon's own flash". WTF?!
>
> He's more than willing to let me return the 8800 and SB-
> 800 if I can't get it to work to my satisfaction, at
> least. His best suggestion was to take the SB-800 out of
> TTL mode and use in on "Auto" mode, which supposedly
> bypasses TTL communication with the camera and just does
> its exposure cut-off of the length of flash pulse based
> solely on its ability to judge distance to the primary
> subject.
>
> I was advised to go back to the WPC museum tomorrow, and
> shoot another series of the same cars on Programmed Auto
> or Aperture Priority, and let the flash do its thing on
> Auto instead of TTL.
>
> I can and will do this. But, I'm wondering if any of this
> makes sense to those of you that understand TTL flash in
> EVF cameras in general, and the Nikon 8800 in particular.
>
> I don't mind the expense of the new 8800 camera as Nikon
> has improved just about everything I care about visa vie
> my older 5700. And, I intentionally bought the big bucks
> SB-800 so Nikon couldn't cop out on me again and say the
> problem is the Sunpak.
>
> I have /no/ exposure problems in daylight with my current
> 5700 nor the little experience so far with the 8800. The
> /big/ issues is I /want/ and EVF and I /want/ to shoot
> flash in car museums, and /not/ available light on a
> tripod. But, naturally, I also /want/ consistent
> exposures that are within the dynamic range necessary to
> post-process with quality in Paint Shop Pro 9.
>
> I am open to any/all advice or recommendations, including
> "dump the Nikon and buy XXX with YYY flash". The only
> thing I don't want is anybody's DSLR because I prefer the
> EVF to the SLR view and like the large attached zoom of a
> top-end pro-sumer EVF.
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> --
> ATM, aka Jerry

Hi there.

I have the D70 and SB600, and also found some inconsistencies with exposure.

I have found that the best combination is to set the Camera to Manual,
choose the fastest flash sync shutter speed, but ensure the f number is
within the correct range for the Flashgun. Leave the Flash on iTTL.

This seems to solve the problem, because I suspect that otherwise the Flash
is working more as a Fill Flash and the ambient light is having too much of
an effect on the exposure.

The only problem is that there does seem to be a slight under exposure, but
it is a constant value, so "Plus" a half stop of Flash compensation corrects
it.

I also put the SB600 on a bracket, and set the on board Flash to "Commander
Mode", just to ensure there is no red eye, that might also help you to
eliminate any Specular Reflections.

The highly reflective surfaces on car bodies, could just be the main source
of all your problems, and using a Manual Flash and an Incident Flash meter
might be the only real answer.

Any Auto system could be confused by a "beam" of light being reflected back
onto either the TTL or Flash Sensors.

Hope this is some help.

Roy G

Paul Rubin commented courteously...

> Maybe some specular reflection just happening to hit one of
> the multi-zone sensors? I haven't heard of this happening
> with the SLR/DSLR cameras though. And I don't see any
> inherent reason the 5700 should be worse than a D70 at
> getting the right flash exposure, if iTTL is one of its
> advertised features.

The camera store manager, who sounds like he's very
knowledgeble, says this problem occurs with both EVF and DSLR
Nikons, all vintanges. Again, I dunno.

The 8800 is the last in a chain of upgraded cameras off the
basic 5700 architecture. While significant changes have been
made, not the least of which is 8MP vs. 5MP, and the new iTTL
flash system system (which was why I bought it), the basics
are virtually identical.

As to specular tricks, I dunno that either. All I know so far
is that it doesn't matter much what the ambient light it,
still is "random" and uncontrollable.

I'm going back today to shoot with the flash on Auto, Manual,
and Guide Number, and the camera on Programmed Auto, Aperture
Priority, and Manual, and see if there's a combination that
works consistently. Otherwise, it's gonna go back for a charge
credit, and I'll look for something else.

--
ATM, aka Jerry

David Dyer-Bennet commented courteously...

Thanks for the long and detailed comments, David!

> Are you sure you're watching for underexposure
indications
> from the flash? One possible contributing factor is
the
> flash being unable to produce enough power. This is
more
> likely if you're bouncing (I can't imagine decent
photos of
> this sort of subject with direct on-camera flash).

Yes. The flash has a range of over 30' at f/2.8, and I'm
shooting at under 20'. The issue seems to be that the
iTTL auto exposure system "thinks" it has enough light
when it doesn't, hence it cuts off the flash pulse
prematurely.
>
>> Well, I took my brand new 8800 for a "test drive" this
>> morning at the Walter P. Chrysler Museum, in Auburn
>> Hills, Michigan. It is only 15 minutes from me and I
get
>> in free as a DCX retiree, so I spend lots of time
there.
>>
>> Got the same 1/3 good, 1/3 OK, and 1/3 dark /on the
very
>> same/ cars as I had shot just a week ago with my 5700!
>> (((-;;
>
> AAAIIIEEEEEE! Oh, *man* would I be annoyed.

Yepper! "$1,400 ****ed off" was more like it!
>
>> So, back to my camera store for some discussion with
the
>> manager. He checked the camera to be sure I hadn't
messed
>> up some setting, then announced "I don't think you are
>> ever going to get a Nikon EVF camera to work
consistently
>> with TTL flash, even with Nikon's own flash". WTF?!
>
> I wonder about the reference to "EFV" camea. He may be
> using that just to group the particular Nikon cameras
he
> has that opinion about, in which case fine. But if
he's
> claiming there's some actual cause-and-effect
relationship
> between EVF and this flash problem, I'd worry about his
> reliability.

Everybody has their "reliability" problems, not just this
guy, hence my post here to "calibrate" his assertions.
But, I've "talked" to 5700 owners who saw this phenomenon
as well. Iffn I can believe the camera store manager, it
isn't so much an EVF vs. DSLR issue, as it is Nikon's
choice for the underlying flash auto exposure. That's why
I'm so perplexed - and ****ed off - iTTL is supposed to
fix this sort of thing, right?!
>
> Yes, auto mode will give you different behavior, and
takes
> the camera out of the circuit so it's *simpler*
behavior.
> Possibly it'll actually work better on these subjects.
> Only one way to find out

Yes, I'll be back to the museum this morning, also with
my 5700 and its Sunpak 433D. I'll be shooting the 8800
and flash in all the relevent modes, on a representative
set of cars, some known to work OK and others know to be
badly underexposed.

> Well, if the AUTO mode works -- try it with your old
flash.
> You may at least be able to return the expensive SB-
800.
> Sounds like you might want to keep the 8800 anyway .

Maybe so. My Sunpak won't be able to talk TTL to the 8800
at all, but as you say, there may be some reason to keep
the camera but not the flash.
>
> I find that TTL works poorly with my Fuji S2 DSLR and
Nikon
> SB-28 and SB-80dx flashes, and end up using manual a
lot,
> exposure compensation a lot, and ordinary AUTO on the
flash
> some (but it doesn't work very well either). I'm
> *extremely* disappointed with this, because the TTL
flash
> with my N90 was *so much* better than all my previous
> auto-flash experience (TTL *and* 'D' lenses). I hate
> losing that in digital (though, with the preview, I can
at
> least tell I have a problem, and work around it; but
it's
> still more work and slows me down, and I want the
> automation to work better there).

I'm sorry to hear about /your/ troubles, but maybe it at
least tells me I've not gone into the Twilight Zone!
Still, my first digital, a 4MP Fuji 4900, worked 100%
consistent even with its small built-in flash (up to max
range, of course).
>
> I believe the DSLR cameras have particular problems
with
> TTL flash because the sensor surface has very different
> reflectivity from film, so the stuff built into the
film
> SLR bodies the DSLRs are built from isn't happy. I
think
> Nikon and Canon have created new flash modes to try to
> address these problems (but they don't help me, not
being
> in my camera or flash yet).
>
> I would have hoped that a non-DSLR wouldn't have that
> particular problem, though.

I don't have nearly enough data points to make a judgment
here, I'll just have to fall back on the ole "trial and
error" method to see if I can make the 8800 and SB-800
work minimally consistently.


--
ATM, aka Jerry

Roy commented courteously...

> I have the D70 and SB600, and also found some
> inconsistencies with exposure.

Egad, Roy! et tu, Brute? Seems everyone gets these
inconsistancies! Can't Nikon make $1,000+ cameras that work, evn
with a $330 flash (SB-800)?
>
> I have found that the best combination is to set the Camera
> to Manual, choose the fastest flash sync shutter speed, but
> ensure the f number is within the correct range for the
> Flashgun. Leave the Flash on iTTL.

Yeah, I can do that, but its a PITA. I didn't pay this much
money to estimate the distance for each shot and fuss with
aperture and shutter.
>
> This seems to solve the problem, because I suspect that
> otherwise the Flash is working more as a Fill Flash and the
> ambient light is having too much of an effect on the
> exposure.

If you also put the flash into manual mode, you'd supposedly get
the full GN worth, not as a fill-flash per se.
>
> The only problem is that there does seem to be a slight
> under exposure, but it is a constant value, so "Plus" a
> half stop of Flash compensation corrects it.

Nikon "likes" to underexpose, so, Yes, an EV correction or tweak
in PS CS or PSP can fix that.
>
> The highly reflective surfaces on car bodies, could just be
> the main source of all your problems, and using a Manual
> Flash and an Incident Flash meter might be the only real
> answer.

Could be, but I don't think so. Whitewalls on the 1940s/50s cars
/do/ fool TTL, but not the paint. Anyway, no one can explain why
I can stand stock still and shoot 3 different cars, one in front
of me, and one either side of me, and have 1 or maybe 2 be fine,
while the 3rd is a black cat in a coal bin!
>
> Any Auto system could be confused by a "beam" of light
> being reflected back onto either the TTL or Flash Sensors.

I looked for this, also, for the past year with the 5700 and
yesterday with my 8800 test drive. Can't find anything that'll
consistently make them work nor consistently make them fail. The
saving grace, such that it is, is that I can immediately see if
the picture is good, just OK, or bad

> Hope this is some help.

Yes, definitely, Roy! Now I have 3 more data points that it just
isn't me, it's the camera/flash combo that ain't working as
advertised! Thanks, muchly!

--
ATM, aka Jerry

Paul Furman commented courteously...

> Ugh, I'm glad I haven't had to deal with flash. Even
DSLR
> users always seem to be struggling with it. I also
don't
> care for tripods but that would be the next step I
might
> try to solve this. Also, I would just try putting it in
> manual and bracket till it looks right. Ultimately
that's
> going to give more control and understanding.

I prefer flash because my cars are brighter, contrastier,
and look snappier, albeit I have to watch for flash
glare. Tripods and available light work OK in museums,
but are /really/ slow and upset the other visitors to the
point that some museums won't let you do it.

And, upping the ISO to get decent exposures invites an
attack of the dreaded sensor noise!

Thanks for the comments/suggestion, I'm gonna do exactly
what you and the others, as well as the camera store
dude, suggest, and try out various flash and camera
modes.

--
ATM, aka Jerry

"All Things Mopar" <> wrote in message
news:Xns966142F74C2FBReplyToken@216.196.97.131...
> Roy commented courteously...
>
>> I have the D70 and SB600, and also found some
>> inconsistencies with exposure.
>
> Egad, Roy! et tu, Brute? Seems everyone gets these
> inconsistancies! Can't Nikon make $1,000+ cameras that work, evn
> with a $330 flash (SB-800)?
>>
>> I have found that the best combination is to set the Camera
>> to Manual, choose the fastest flash sync shutter speed, but
>> ensure the f number is within the correct range for the
>> Flashgun. Leave the Flash on iTTL.
>
> Yeah, I can do that, but its a PITA. I didn't pay this much
> money to estimate the distance for each shot and fuss with
> aperture and shutter.
>>
>> This seems to solve the problem, because I suspect that
>> otherwise the Flash is working more as a Fill Flash and the
>> ambient light is having too much of an effect on the
>> exposure.
>
> If you also put the flash into manual mode, you'd supposedly get
> the full GN worth, not as a fill-flash per se.
>>
>> The only problem is that there does seem to be a slight
>> under exposure, but it is a constant value, so "Plus" a
>> half stop of Flash compensation corrects it.
>
> Nikon "likes" to underexpose, so, Yes, an EV correction or tweak
> in PS CS or PSP can fix that.
>>
>> The highly reflective surfaces on car bodies, could just be
>> the main source of all your problems, and using a Manual
>> Flash and an Incident Flash meter might be the only real
>> answer.
>
> Could be, but I don't think so. Whitewalls on the 1940s/50s cars
> /do/ fool TTL, but not the paint. Anyway, no one can explain why
> I can stand stock still and shoot 3 different cars, one in front
> of me, and one either side of me, and have 1 or maybe 2 be fine,
> while the 3rd is a black cat in a coal bin!
>>
>> Any Auto system could be confused by a "beam" of light
>> being reflected back onto either the TTL or Flash Sensors.
>
> I looked for this, also, for the past year with the 5700 and
> yesterday with my 8800 test drive. Can't find anything that'll
> consistently make them work nor consistently make them fail. The
> saving grace, such that it is, is that I can immediately see if
> the picture is good, just OK, or bad
>
>> Hope this is some help.
>
> Yes, definitely, Roy! Now I have 3 more data points that it just
> isn't me, it's the camera/flash combo that ain't working as
> advertised! Thanks, muchly!
>
> --
> ATM, aka Jerry

Hi. Again.

I said leave the Flash on iTTL. Put the camera on the Manual Exposure Mode,
( further round the dial from P, S, A.), dont go into the menus and change
Flash Control to Manual, leave that on iTTL on both the Camera and
Flashgun.

So the Camera and the Flash will still communicate, and control the amount
of light emitted.

All you are doing in Manual is selected a shutter speed and lens aperture,
which the Camera / Flash Auto systems will not alter. The Camera will still
Autofocus.

You don't need to do any calculation other than checking that the aperture
is not so small that the Flash won't be able to provide sufficient
illumination. It will tell you if it was "Out of Range" automatically.

I don't know your Camera, but on the D70 I can dial in Flash Compensation
to up the output by up to 1 stop, or reduce it by up to 3 stops, to get the
histogram the way I want it.

I am too much of a realist to expect any Auto System to be able to work
entirely without Input from the Photographer, all they do is make it a bit
easier for me to exert control.

Nikon's have been "under-exposing" (in the view of some) ever since I have
owned one, early 80s, and probably well before that.

Roy G