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color calibration question

 
 
Rick
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      04-17-2005
"Paul Mitchum" <(E-Mail Removed)0m> wrote in message news:1gv4gdb.s6vrbks6vfoqN%(E-Mail Removed)0m...
> Bubbabob <rnorton@_remove_this_thuntek.net> wrote:
>
> > (E-Mail Removed)0m (Paul Mitchum) wrote:
> >
> > > Apple's generic Color LCD profile has a significantly smaller gamut than
> > > sRGB. So none of their LCD monitors (they don't make CRTs anymore) will
> > > magically 'be' sRGB.

> >
> > Pretty much putting MAC out of the professional graphics and photography
> > business for anyone that has color quality concerns.

>
> Hehe. That's funny.


I wish it were. But it's an LCD issue, not just an Apple issue.
I'm seeing more and more horrid "professional" images chock
full of color errors, noise etc, especially in dark shots, caused
by editors and proofers not being able to see these problems
on limited gamut LCDs.


 
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Ron Hunter
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      04-17-2005
Paul Mitchum wrote:
> Bubbabob <rnorton@_remove_this_thuntek.net> wrote:
>
>
>>(E-Mail Removed)0m (Paul Mitchum) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Apple's generic Color LCD profile has a significantly smaller gamut than
>>>sRGB. So none of their LCD monitors (they don't make CRTs anymore) will
>>>magically 'be' sRGB.

>>
>>Pretty much putting MAC out of the professional graphics and photography
>>business for anyone that has color quality concerns.

>
>
> Hehe. That's funny.

That IS funny. Mac is the computer of choice for a LOT of professional
graphics and photography places, and a LOT of magazines are published
with them from start to finish.
Professional Mac users often use very large (23") monitors, of the
finest quality.


--
Ron Hunter http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed)
 
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Bubbabob
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      04-17-2005
"Rick" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> "Paul Mitchum" <(E-Mail Removed)0m> wrote in message
> news:1gv4gdb.s6vrbks6vfoqN%(E-Mail Removed)0m...
>> Bubbabob <rnorton@_remove_this_thuntek.net> wrote:
>>
>> > (E-Mail Removed)0m (Paul Mitchum) wrote:
>> >
>> > > Apple's generic Color LCD profile has a significantly smaller
>> > > gamut than sRGB. So none of their LCD monitors (they don't make
>> > > CRTs anymore) will magically 'be' sRGB.
>> >
>> > Pretty much putting MAC out of the professional graphics and
>> > photography business for anyone that has color quality concerns.

>>
>> Hehe. That's funny.

>
> I wish it were. But it's an LCD issue, not just an Apple issue.
> I'm seeing more and more horrid "professional" images chock
> full of color errors, noise etc, especially in dark shots, caused
> by editors and proofers not being able to see these problems
> on limited gamut LCDs.
>
>
>


I'm seeing more of this all the time, too. I usually have to fix the crap
our graphic artist sends out when it comes back. Can't pry her away from
that damned LCD monitor.
 
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Paul Mitchum
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      04-17-2005
Rick <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> "Paul Mitchum" <(E-Mail Removed)0m> wrote in message
> news:1gv4gdb.s6vrbks6vfoqN%(E-Mail Removed)0m...
> > Bubbabob <rnorton@_remove_this_thuntek.net> wrote:
> > > (E-Mail Removed)0m (Paul Mitchum) wrote:
> > >
> > > > Apple's generic Color LCD profile has a significantly smaller gamut
> > > > than sRGB. So none of their LCD monitors (they don't make CRTs
> > > > anymore) will magically 'be' sRGB.
> > >
> > > Pretty much putting MAC out of the professional graphics and
> > > photography business for anyone that has color quality concerns.

> >
> > Hehe. That's funny.

>
> I wish it were. But it's an LCD issue, not just an Apple issue. I'm
> seeing more and more horrid "professional" images chock full of color
> errors, noise etc, especially in dark shots, caused by editors and
> proofers not being able to see these problems on limited gamut LCDs.


That's not a problem unique to Macs, however, is it? An uncalibrated
and/or low-gamut monitor won't provide the best results no matter what
computer it's hooked up to.

That's why what bubba said was funny.
 
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Bubbabob
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      04-17-2005
(E-Mail Removed)0m (Paul Mitchum) wrote:


>
> That's not a problem unique to Macs, however, is it? An uncalibrated
> and/or low-gamut monitor won't provide the best results no matter what
> computer it's hooked up to.
>


My point is that without a CRT monitor MAC users will not be able to do
professional level work. Using other manufacturers' monitors can be
problematic due to MAC's use of the D5000 1.8 gamma system that is
essentially incompatible with the way that CRT physics work. Sure, you can
tweak a CRT monitor to gamma 1.8 but electron guns work at a natural 2.2
gamma (why everyone but MAC uses it). If you run them at 1.8 you degrade
their color gamut and get flaky shadow detail.
 
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Paul Mitchum
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      04-18-2005
Bubbabob <rnorton@_remove_this_thuntek.net> wrote:

> (E-Mail Removed)0m (Paul Mitchum) wrote:
>
> > That's not a problem unique to Macs, however, is it? An uncalibrated
> > and/or low-gamut monitor won't provide the best results no matter what
> > computer it's hooked up to.

>
> My point is that without a CRT monitor MAC users will not be able to do
> professional level work. Using other manufacturers' monitors can be
> problematic due to MAC's use of the D5000 1.8 gamma system that is
> essentially incompatible with the way that CRT physics work. Sure, you can
> tweak a CRT monitor to gamma 1.8 but electron guns work at a natural 2.2
> gamma (why everyone but MAC uses it). If you run them at 1.8 you degrade
> their color gamut and get flaky shadow detail.


It's 'Mac.' It's not an acronym.

You can set your Mac to work at 2.2 gamma if you want. There's
justification for using 1.8, and there's justification for using 2.2.
Make two profiles and switch between them when you need to with a couple
mouse clicks. It's not that difficult.
 
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andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid
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      04-18-2005
David Chien <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> For consumers, simply use sRGB all the way through. Most LCD panels
> sold today have a sRGB mode. sRGB mostly comes out of digicams and
> printers. and once you've set everything to work in sRGB, you'll be
> surprised! -- instant color matching w/o spending a cent. (Okay, not
> 100% accurate, but pretty darn close.)


> I found this to work the best for me after trying those $$ Spyders and
> other color matching/calibration programs.


> Why?


> 1) You'll NEVER EVER get a 100% matching between monitor and print. One
> is transmissive, the other is reflective. It is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE
> to make the match exactly -- it's like trying to make a light bulb
> (monitor) match the print (printer). Just can't be done because the
> print can't glow and shine light like the light bulb.


Well, the gamuts are different. However, within the common gamut of
monitor and paper, you can get a good visual match, certainly one
that's good enough to judge whether an image is right for printing.

> 2) Even if you spend $$$$$ on the color calibration programs and
> tools, #1 still is in effect. You will still find yourself annoyed
> to death that the print doesn't look exactly like the monitor until
> you realize #1.


I don't agree with this. Since I moved to a fully colour managed
workflow I've had few problems with prints looking wrong. Soft
proofing seems to do what it's designed to do.

> 3) Everyone views prints under differing lighting conditions - this
> alone will result in color mismatch between what you see on the
> print vs. the monitor. You'll have to change out all of your light
> bulbs for color standard bulbs if you want to see everything in a
> consistant way.


All of them? Why? Just the ones you're using to view the proof,
surely.

> As a result of #1 through #3 AND the fact that the human eye's color
> response varies minute-by-minute and day-to-day, you'll realize that
> unless you're spot checking every print sample in multiple locations
> with a color spectrometer to make sure every print is matching
> intended colors exactly (or calibrating printers before), you'll
> notice that one day, a print may look superb, but the next day, it's
> not so great.


That may be true as lighting conditions change, but I've not seen
printers change their colour over time. FWIW, I'm using Epson
printers and Ultrachrome inks.

I think you're underestimating what colour management can do.

> Those that want more can always color manage, calibrate, etc. +
> change their light bulbs, use color checkers, etc., but that's
> usually a very time consumer and costly step to take knowing that no
> matter what, prints won't look exactly the same as the monitor
> image.


As I said, I have seen little unexpected disparity between soft proofs
and the resulting prints. It takes a little experience to get used to
soft proofing, but it does work.

Andrew.
 
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Dave Martindale
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      04-18-2005
Bubbabob <rnorton@_remove_this_thuntek.net> writes:

>My point is that without a CRT monitor MAC users will not be able to do
>professional level work. Using other manufacturers' monitors can be
>problematic due to MAC's use of the D5000 1.8 gamma system that is
>essentially incompatible with the way that CRT physics work. Sure, you can
>tweak a CRT monitor to gamma 1.8 but electron guns work at a natural 2.2
>gamma (why everyone but MAC uses it). If you run them at 1.8 you degrade
>their color gamut and get flaky shadow detail.


There is nothing special about Apple monitors at all. Their electron
guns have the same gamma as all other CRTs. The *difference* is in the
lookup tables loaded into the graphics card hardware. On a PC, these
are normally loaded so they have no effect, while on a Mac they are
loaded with a function that has a gamma of 1.8/2.2.

So you can connect *any* CRT to a Mac, and get a Mac standard gamma
response. You can also set the Mac to use 2.2 instead of 1.8 if you
want.

Dave
 
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Bubbabob
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      04-19-2005
(E-Mail Removed) (Dave Martindale) wrote:

> There is nothing special about Apple monitors at all. Their electron
> guns have the same gamma as all other CRTs. The *difference* is in
> the lookup tables loaded into the graphics card hardware. On a PC,
> these are normally loaded so they have no effect, while on a Mac they
> are loaded with a function that has a gamma of 1.8/2.2.


Yes, but any time you use an LUT to modify the natural gamma of an
electron gun, you lose quality.
>
> So you can connect *any* CRT to a Mac, and get a Mac standard gamma
> response. You can also set the Mac to use 2.2 instead of 1.8 if you
> want.
>
> Dave
>


I take it that this is a relatively recent ability for Macs (ability to
use gamma 2.2).

 
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Paul Mitchum
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      04-19-2005
Bubbabob <rnorton@_remove_this_thuntek.net> wrote:

> (E-Mail Removed) (Dave Martindale) wrote:
>
> > There is nothing special about Apple monitors at all. Their electron
> > guns have the same gamma as all other CRTs. The *difference* is in the
> > lookup tables loaded into the graphics card hardware. On a PC, these
> > are normally loaded so they have no effect, while on a Mac they are
> > loaded with a function that has a gamma of 1.8/2.2.

>
> Yes, but any time you use an LUT to modify the natural gamma of an
> electron gun, you lose quality.


Then the whole idea of color management using a monitor profile is kinda
out-the-window anyway, isn't it?

> > So you can connect *any* CRT to a Mac, and get a Mac standard gamma
> > response. You can also set the Mac to use 2.2 instead of 1.8 if you
> > want.

>
> I take it that this is a relatively recent ability for Macs (ability to
> use gamma 2.2).


Nope. I'm pretty sure it's ever since they've been color, but definately
ever since ColorSync.
 
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