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Re: New Mamiya 645 may influence DSLR prices

 
 
Bill Hilton
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      09-30-2004
>From: Steve Hix http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed)NVALID
>
>According to the article above, 10K *euros*, not dollars. About US$12K.


Unfortunately Mamiya USA has a stranglehold on the US import market and for
many products you pay a LOT more in the US than you do in Europe for the same
item. Often this extra markup is 50%, 80%, even 100% ... one lens for my
Mamiya 7 system sold for $2,500 at B&H but was available for $1,500 at Robert
White in England, for example, or a markup of an additional 66%.

If this trend holds with this new digital camera then it could easily sell for
quite a bit more than $12,000 US, perhaps closer to $20,000? Won't know until
we see an actual US list price I guess.

Bill


 
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Siddhartha Jain
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      09-30-2004
DLGlos wrote:
> Please don't take this as an insult, but your last sentence is

closest
> to the truth. Medium format cameras are far more about resolution and
> tonality rather than speed.


No offense taken. That last sentence wasn't in sarcasm but plain
admittance.

>
> For a focal plane shutter, the larger image capture area requires a
> larger shutter and heavier shutter leaves, which by merit of basic
> physics will be a bit less responsive. I'm not saying its not useful
> to some, but when is the last time you acutually needed a 1/8000s
> shutter speed.

..
..
..
> If your object doesn't move (studio advertising, graphic arts,
> archiving/documentation, etc.), check out some of the images made

with
> scanning backs. DAGS on Better Light.


If medium formats are largely used for slow moving/stationary objects
then that explains a lot.

Thanks,

Siddhartha

 
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Bryan Olson
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      09-30-2004
Stacey wrote:
> Bryan Olson wrote:
>>Stacey wrote:
>> > Maybe this will shut up some of the morons posting the "Dslr's
>> > are taking over medformat" garbage that get's posted almost
>> > daily now in the film newsgroups.

>>
>>This new Mamiya *is* a digital SLR, so I expect it will re-enforce
>>the position.

>
> Like DUH, I meant the APS size digtial rebel ones people keep bragging
> about.


Well now, the base of the issue is what the people you call
"morons" meant. Are they really claiming, "almost daily now"
that "the APS size digital rebel" cameras "are taking over
medium format"? I had not seen that.


--
--Bryan
 
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Chris Brown
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      09-30-2004
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
Bill Hilton <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>Unfortunately Mamiya USA has a stranglehold on the US import market and for
>many products you pay a LOT more in the US than you do in Europe for the same
>item. Often this extra markup is 50%, 80%, even 100% ... one lens for my
>Mamiya 7 system sold for $2,500 at B&H but was available for $1,500 at Robert
>White in England, for example, or a markup of an additional 66%.


It's nice to have it the other way around just this once - we in Europe, and
especially the UK, usually get outrageously fleeced compared to US prices.
Allow us our indulgence on this one - it doesn't happen often. ;->
 
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DLGlos
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      09-30-2004
On 30 Sep 2004 05:37:49 GMT, (E-Mail Removed)dy (Bill Hilton)
wrote:

>>From: Steve Hix (E-Mail Removed)NVALID
>>
>>According to the article above, 10K *euros*, not dollars. About US$12K.

>
>Unfortunately Mamiya USA has a stranglehold on the US import market and for
>many products you pay a LOT more in the US than you do in Europe for the same
>item. Often this extra markup is 50%, 80%, even 100% ... one lens for my
>Mamiya 7 system sold for $2,500 at B&H but was available for $1,500 at Robert
>White in England, for example, or a markup of an additional 66%.
>
>If this trend holds with this new digital camera then it could easily sell for
>quite a bit more than $12,000 US, perhaps closer to $20,000? Won't know until
>we see an actual US list price I guess.
>
>Bill


That is precisely the reason I ended up with a couple of non-mamiya
medium format systems. I openly admired both the RZ and 7, but the
prices are/were simply insane for what I was doing. Thought about the
Robert White path, but didn't go there.

If MAC (Mamiya America Corp) does this their new digital, they may
never regain any market share. In general, I think the digital
revolution has lowered the level of imaging quality that the general
public is willing to accept. Before you jump all over me, I'm not
saying digital in inheritly worse quality, but in many cases, its
certainly no better. High end DSLR's, with APS to 35mm sized sensors,
are pretty much normal in wedding photography today, and it might be a
tough sell to move up to medium format based DSLR, despite an
improvement in image quality.

David Glos

 
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deryck lant
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      09-30-2004
The message <(E-Mail Removed)>
from Stacey <(E-Mail Removed)> contains these words:

> Alan Browne wrote:




> >>
> >>

> http://www.letsgodigital.org/html/ev...iya/ZD_en.html
> >>
> >> If so it will dampen down the price of the new 1DsMkII Canon and maybe
> >> influence
> >> Nikon as well.

> >


> As well as making the images taken with those DSLR's look as pathetic as
> 35mm images do compared to MF film cameras. Maybe this will shut up some of
> the morons posting the "Dslr's are taking over medformat" garbage that
> get's posted almost daily now in the film newsgroups. Somehow I doubt it
> will.


Brochure:

http://www.legene.com/planet/mamiya_zd.pdf

Another Hands On:

http://pdnonline.com/photodistrictne..._id=1000649384

Deryck
 
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John McWilliams
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      09-30-2004
Stacey wrote:
> Alan Browne wrote:
>
>
>
>
>>>

> http://www.letsgodigital.org/html/ev...iya/ZD_en.html
>
>>>If so it will dampen down the price of the new 1DsMkII Canon and maybe
>>>influence
>>>Nikon as well.

>>

Wrong person quoted.

--
John McWilliams
 
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John McWilliams
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      09-30-2004
Bryan Olson wrote:

> Stacey wrote:
> > Bryan Olson wrote:
> >>Stacey wrote:
> >> > Maybe this will shut up some of the morons posting the "Dslr's
> >> > are taking over medformat" garbage that get's posted almost
> >> > daily now in the film newsgroups.
> >>
> >>This new Mamiya *is* a digital SLR, so I expect it will re-enforce
> >>the position.

> >
> > Like DUH, I meant the APS size digtial rebel ones people keep bragging
> > about.

>
> Well now, the base of the issue is what the people you call
> "morons" meant. Are they really claiming, "almost daily now"
> that "the APS size digital rebel" cameras "are taking over
> medium format"? I had not seen that.
>

Nor have I. But the quotient of morons making blanket statements remains
high.

--

John McWilliams
 
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Alan Browne
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      09-30-2004
~Darrell Larose~ wrote:

> "Alan Browne" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:JBD6d.70$(E-Mail Removed)...
>
>>deryck lant wrote:
>>
>>
>>>The new 22 Meg Mamiya ZD 645 format DSLR with 36x48mm imager is rumoured
>>>to sell
>>>at around 10K US Dollars:
>>>
>>>

>
> http://www.letsgodigital.org/html/ev...iya/ZD_en.html
>
>>>If so it will dampen down the price of the new 1DsMkII Canon and maybe
>>>influence
>>>Nikon as well.

>>
>>
>>Not sure about the effect on prices for "35mm" format DSLR's, if any.
>>

>
> Sensor prices rely on the economy of scale, if the Mamiya sensor sells in
> volume, whether in a Mamiya, Bronica, Hasselblad, the end result is the
> prices will come down. If this sensor was split in half we would then have
> to 24x36mm sensors. This is a simplistic view, but silicon sort of works
> like that...


The notion is that if a high end camera such as the 645 is at a certain price
point, then it will have downward pressure on the price point in a different
class of camera. Since they are different classes of camera and different lens
systems, etc., there will be 0 effect. Further the pix density of the MF camera
is less than that of the 'best' 35mm digital ... so really no comparison at all
at the chip level.

Cheers,
Alan

--
-- rec.photo.equipment.35mm user resource:
-- http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.--
 
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Alan Browne
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Posts: n/a
 
      09-30-2004
Stacey wrote:

> Alan Browne wrote:
>
>
>
>
>>>

> http://www.letsgodigital.org/html/ev...iya/ZD_en.html
>
>>>If so it will dampen down the price of the new 1DsMkII Canon and maybe
>>>influence
>>>Nikon as well.

>>


I wish you would be careful with your snipping. I did NOT write the above, and
my opinion is actually the contrary.

>
> As well as making the images taken with those DSLR's look as pathetic as
> 35mm images do compared to MF film cameras. Maybe this will shut up some of
> the morons posting the "Dslr's are taking over medformat" garbage that
> get's posted almost daily now in the film newsgroups. Somehow I doubt it
> will.


Afraid not. While the MF's with 22 MP backs enjoy both more detail and better
SNR, the gap is narrower with each passing season. A lot of work that is
currently done on MF can be done just as well on the better 35mm frame digtital
cameras. Not all, but a lot. See the "encroachment" / 1Ds MkII threads.

Cheers,
Alan


--
-- rec.photo.equipment.35mm user resource:
-- http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.--
 
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