«

On 11 Feb 2007 07:57:42 -0800, "" <>
wrote:

>On Feb 10, 11:22?pm, clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:
>> On 10 Feb 2007 14:34:51 -0800, "hall...@aol.com" <hall...@aol.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >On Feb 10, 4:01?pm, Anthony Matonak
>> ><anthony...@nothing.like.socal.rr.com> wrote:
>> >> John wrote:
>> >> > How do you know how much power your computer and it's peripherals use?
>> >> > And how do you know what it uses on average? How do you go about
>> >> > calculating or measuring the typical power consumption of your system
>> >> > so you have a better idea of what capacity UPS device you need?
>>
>> >> The best way to is to measure. As the other fellow said, a kill-a-watt
>> >> meter isn't terribly expensive. Other people have measured typical
>> >> computers, monitors, printers, etc. and posted their results on this
>> >> and other newsgroups as well as websites. A little web searching
>> >> should yield some results.
>>
>> >> > I also wondered if it is possible to connect an external battery to a
>> >> > UPS device in some way to boost the amount of back up time you have?
>>
>> >> Yes, it's possible but it works best if the UPS is designed to have
>> >> external batteries. Many of them do, though not many of the small
>> >> consumer versions.
>>
>> >> > My system I would definitely want the computer and monitor as well as
>> >> > the ADSL/Router to be permanently connected to the UPS. I would also
>> >> > like the other device to be connected to like the printer and scanner
>> >> > even though these are not as critical. / most UPS device today give
>> >> > you lots of different connection options e.g. computer power lead, 3
>> >> > pin plug (uk) etc? As far as my ADSL/router is concerned I would never
>> >> > want the power to go out on that, I would always want it to be
>> >> > powered.
>>
>> >> Most of these units have a number of AC outlets and you can add
>> >> power strips if you need more. It's typical for people to power
>> >> their entire system off their UPS, laser printers excluded.
>>
>> >> I haven't heard of any that have anything but ordinary AC outlets
>> >> but I imagine that with a little tinkering you could add DC from
>> >> the battery terminals inside. The style of outlet is usually the
>> >> same as those used in your country. A French UPS will not have the
>> >> same outlets as an American version. This is not usually a problem
>> >> because few people buy these internationally.
>>
>> >> Anthony
>>
>> >UPS are basically to give time to cover minor power burps and time for
>> >orderly shutdown, not extended operations.
>>
>> >small consumer units will overheat on external batteries, buy only a
>> >unit with built in external battery capacity to avoid the overheat
>> >issues.
>>
>> >UPS are generally too small to run printers, and printing may induce
>> >transients that cause computer problems, your better off to at minimum
>> >have them on seperate UPS.
>>
>> >If operations are that critical consider a auto backup generator
>> >running on natural gas or propane for essentially indefinite operation
>> >of most of your homes systems
>>
>> Inkjets are OK on a UPS if necessary, but NEVER a laser. Any dual
>> conversion UPS will work almost infinitely if enough DC power is
>> available. They are DESIGNED to run full time. Only caveat is you will
>> likely require an external charger to handle the extended run
>> batteries if the unit was not built as extended run.
>> I like the idea of a small IC engine powered generator for extended
>> run, like the old BEST UBS system.
>>
>> --
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>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>Lower end UPS TODAY are built on the cheap.

Which does NOT change the FACT that a dual conversion UPS of ANY
stripe is built to work 24/7, 365 days a year if enough DC power is
available.

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On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 20:32:08 +0000, John <> wrote:

>Thanks for all the advice.
>
>I actually already had a current meter that you plug in so I have
>pulled it out the back of the wardrobe and tested it on my system and
>was quite surprised by the results.
>
>My system appears to only be using around 100 watts of power when
>switched on, give or take a fluctuation of 5 watts.
>
>I'm pretty sure that the power supply in my system was something like
>380 or 420 watts. I know it was higher than the power supply I have
>had in the past for previous systems. My system does have quite a few
>devices and drives in it so it was a surprised it is only drawing
>100w.
>
>I have yet to test the power draw of the ADSL/router on it's own.
>
>As far as a ups device overheating is concerned, when these devices
>are connected to your computers it is constantly powered from the
>mains power supply to keep the battery topped up right?
>
>I am just trying to understand how it would overheat if it was still
>constantly connected to the mains power but with a 12v deep cycle
>battery in between?

If it is not a dual conversion UPS, the computer runs off mains power
untill the mains power fails. The inverter then takes over. A dual
conversion UPS is essentially a large battery charger, a battery, and
an inverter.
There are dual conversion, line interactive, and standby UPS systems.
>
>So you would have the mains keeping the 12v deep cycle battery topped
>up, and that would then be going via a 12/240v inverter providing say
>around 150w of power (which would be more than enough to cover my
>system) which would keep the UPS topped up and the computer in
>business.
>
>The only time the battery from the UPS would start to drain would be
>after the deep cycle battery had run out during a power cut. If I had
>a deep cycle battery with a capacity of about 100 amp hours, that
>would provide quite a few hours of use at 100 watts consumption before
>it would exhausts wouldn't it? And by that time the electric may be
>back on anyway.
>
>Can anyone see any flaws to this type of setup?
>
>John
>


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clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 20:32:08 +0000, John <> wrote:
>
>>I am just trying to understand how it would overheat if it was still
>>constantly connected to the mains power but with a 12v deep cycle
>>battery in between?
>
> If it is not a dual conversion UPS, the computer runs off mains power
> untill the mains power fails. The inverter then takes over. A dual
> conversion UPS is essentially a large battery charger, a battery, and
> an inverter.
> There are dual conversion, line interactive, and standby UPS systems.

Most small consumer UPS units are strictly standby. The inverter
doesn't activate until you lose power and, as has been stated
elsewhere, they often skimp on cooling.

Anthony

On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 16:09:38 -0500, clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:

>On 11 Feb 2007 07:57:42 -0800, "" <>
>wrote:

>>Lower end UPS TODAY are built on the cheap.
>
>Which does NOT change the FACT that a dual conversion UPS of ANY
>stripe is built to work 24/7, 365 days a year if enough DC power is
>available.

That *might* be the original intention of the engineers, but, by the
time the accountants and marketing people have had their say, then
what the customer *actually* ends up with isn't capable by any stretch
of the imagination of 24/7 365 operation.

Heck some of them, and I'm talking about big names here, even after
many years experience in the field don't even know how to properly
float charge the batteries they fit in multi thousand dollar UPS's.



--

On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 13:10:05 +0000, Mike <> wrote:

>On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 16:09:38 -0500, clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:
>
>>On 11 Feb 2007 07:57:42 -0800, "" <>
>>wrote:
>
>>>Lower end UPS TODAY are built on the cheap.
>>
>>Which does NOT change the FACT that a dual conversion UPS of ANY
>>stripe is built to work 24/7, 365 days a year if enough DC power is
>>available.
>
>That *might* be the original intention of the engineers, but, by the
>time the accountants and marketing people have had their say, then
>what the customer *actually* ends up with isn't capable by any stretch
>of the imagination of 24/7 365 operation.

You do not understand. A DUAL CONVERSION UPS DOES run 24/7, 365 days
in NORMAL USE. The inverter runs ALL THE TIME, supplying the FULL
LOAD.
>
>Heck some of them, and I'm talking about big names here, even after
>many years experience in the field don't even know how to properly
>float charge the batteries they fit in multi thousand dollar UPS's.


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On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 15:38:56 -0500, clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:

>On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 13:10:05 +0000, Mike <> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 16:09:38 -0500, clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:
>>
>>>On 11 Feb 2007 07:57:42 -0800, "" <>
>>>wrote:
>>
>>>>Lower end UPS TODAY are built on the cheap.
>>>
>>>Which does NOT change the FACT that a dual conversion UPS of ANY
>>>stripe is built to work 24/7, 365 days a year if enough DC power is
>>>available.
>>
>>That *might* be the original intention of the engineers, but, by the
>>time the accountants and marketing people have had their say, then
>>what the customer *actually* ends up with isn't capable by any stretch
>>of the imagination of 24/7 365 operation.
>
>You do not understand. A DUAL CONVERSION UPS DOES run 24/7, 365 days
>in NORMAL USE. The inverter runs ALL THE TIME, supplying the FULL
>LOAD.
>>
>>Heck some of them, and I'm talking about big names here, even after
>>many years experience in the field don't even know how to properly
>>float charge the batteries they fit in multi thousand dollar UPS's.

Yes I do COMPLETELY understand the concept of a dual conversion UPS
and I stand by my statement.

The lack of fault tolerant design such as redundant cooling fans and
restrictive particle filtration is a continuing design error in a
significant number of dual conversion UPS's Site the equipment in an
air conditioned environment and you might get away with it for a
couple of years, fit it in the real dusty grimy world especially with
temperatures approaching the upper end of its declared operating
regime and you are extremely lucky to get much more than 365 days use.




--

On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 09:55:11 +0000, Mike <> wrote:

>On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 15:38:56 -0500, clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 13:10:05 +0000, Mike <> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 16:09:38 -0500, clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 11 Feb 2007 07:57:42 -0800, "" <>
>>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>>Lower end UPS TODAY are built on the cheap.
>>>>
>>>>Which does NOT change the FACT that a dual conversion UPS of ANY
>>>>stripe is built to work 24/7, 365 days a year if enough DC power is
>>>>available.
>>>
>>>That *might* be the original intention of the engineers, but, by the
>>>time the accountants and marketing people have had their say, then
>>>what the customer *actually* ends up with isn't capable by any stretch
>>>of the imagination of 24/7 365 operation.
>>
>>You do not understand. A DUAL CONVERSION UPS DOES run 24/7, 365 days
>>in NORMAL USE. The inverter runs ALL THE TIME, supplying the FULL
>>LOAD.
>>>
>>>Heck some of them, and I'm talking about big names here, even after
>>>many years experience in the field don't even know how to properly
>>>float charge the batteries they fit in multi thousand dollar UPS's.
>
>Yes I do COMPLETELY understand the concept of a dual conversion UPS
>and I stand by my statement.
>
>The lack of fault tolerant design such as redundant cooling fans and
>restrictive particle filtration is a continuing design error in a
>significant number of dual conversion UPS's Site the equipment in an
>air conditioned environment and you might get away with it for a
>couple of years, fit it in the real dusty grimy world especially with
>temperatures approaching the upper end of its declared operating
>regime and you are extremely lucky to get much more than 365 days use.

The same goes for ANY equipment. Abuse it and it WILL FAIL.

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In article <45cfb971$0$1372$>,
says...
> clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:
> > On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 20:32:08 +0000, John <> wrote:
> >
> >>I am just trying to understand how it would overheat if it was still
> >>constantly connected to the mains power but with a 12v deep cycle
> >>battery in between?
> >
> > If it is not a dual conversion UPS, the computer runs off mains power
> > untill the mains power fails. The inverter then takes over. A dual
> > conversion UPS is essentially a large battery charger, a battery, and
> > an inverter.
> > There are dual conversion, line interactive, and standby UPS systems.


> Most small consumer UPS units are strictly standby. The inverter
> doesn't activate until you lose power and, as has been stated
> elsewhere, they often skimp on cooling.


I have one of those - a low-end APS brand. If the mains power
goes off, there is an audible "click," which I guess is a relay
switching between the mains feed-though, and the inverter.

There doesn't seem to be any provision for cooling at all.

It's really just to get through very brief (say, two second)
dips, and to give time to shut down, if the mains stays off
longer than that.


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On Fri, 16 Feb 2007 23:10:21 -0800,
<> wrote:

>In article <45cfb971$0$1372$>,
> says...
>> clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:
>> > On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 20:32:08 +0000, John <> wrote:
>> >
>> >>I am just trying to understand how it would overheat if it was still
>> >>constantly connected to the mains power but with a 12v deep cycle
>> >>battery in between?
>> >
>> > If it is not a dual conversion UPS, the computer runs off mains power
>> > untill the mains power fails. The inverter then takes over. A dual
>> > conversion UPS is essentially a large battery charger, a battery, and
>> > an inverter.
>> > There are dual conversion, line interactive, and standby UPS systems.
>
>
>> Most small consumer UPS units are strictly standby. The inverter
>> doesn't activate until you lose power and, as has been stated
>> elsewhere, they often skimp on cooling.

>
>
>I have one of those - a low-end APS brand. If the mains power
>goes off, there is an audible "click," which I guess is a relay
>switching between the mains feed-though, and the inverter.


I'm assuming you mean APC, not APS, and you are right, their low end
stuff SUCKS. Their midline stuff isn't much better from my 20+ years
experience.
>
>There doesn't seem to be any provision for cooling at all.
>
>It's really just to get through very brief (say, two second)
>dips, and to give time to shut down, if the mains stays off
>longer than that.


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