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Web services (SOA) from a Web Application

 
 
richardsosborn@gmail.com
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      10-31-2006
I'm working in a large enterprise architecture. We'll be accessing
web services
(probably via an ESB). I didn't see any posts on it. I'm looking
for integration
patterns to access these services from a web framework (Spring).

 
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Tom Forsmo
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      11-01-2006

http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed) wrote:
> I'm working in a large enterprise architecture. We'll be accessing
> web services
> (probably via an ESB). I didn't see any posts on it. I'm looking
> for integration
> patterns to access these services from a web framework (Spring).


I think you should perhaps get a book on Web Services to understand how
to do that, its not a just simple integration pattern. You have to
understand the ideas behind Web Services and the history of business
systems integration to understand how the idea of SOA can help you. SOA
and ESB are just marketing hype, what is really meant is that its
basically about how to integrate systems and what is really going to
help you solve you problem is understanding what I have mentioned above.

regards

tom
 
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=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?=
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      11-01-2006
(E-Mail Removed) wrote:
> I'm working in a large enterprise architecture. We'll be accessing
> web services
> (probably via an ESB). I didn't see any posts on it. I'm looking
> for integration
> patterns to access these services from a web framework (Spring).


I think you need 5 years of experience with Java, J2EE and
enterprise architecture.

Sorry for the hard words, but the wording in your posting
says that you do not have the experience necessary to design
what you are asking about.

Arne
 
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BioInfoGuy
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      11-01-2006

Arne Vajh°j wrote:
> (E-Mail Removed) wrote:
> > I'm working in a large enterprise architecture. We'll be accessing
> > web services
> > (probably via an ESB). I didn't see any posts on it. I'm looking
> > for integration
> > patterns to access these services from a web framework (Spring).

>
> I think you need 5 years of experience with Java, J2EE and
> enterprise architecture.
>
> Sorry for the hard words, but the wording in your posting
> says that you do not have the experience necessary to design
> what you are asking about.
>
> Arne


C'mon Arne,

Go easy on the guy. Many a junior programmer has made a great architect
and we ought not to presume otherwise merely by virtue of a good
question...

Jason

 
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richardsosborn@gmail.com
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      11-01-2006

BioInfoGuy wrote:
> Arne Vajh°j wrote:
> > (E-Mail Removed) wrote:
> > > I'm working in a large enterprise architecture. We'll be accessing
> > > web services
> > > (probably via an ESB). I didn't see any posts on it. I'm looking
> > > for integration
> > > patterns to access these services from a web framework (Spring).

> >
> > I think you need 5 years of experience with Java, J2EE and
> > enterprise architecture.
> >
> > Sorry for the hard words, but the wording in your posting
> > says that you do not have the experience necessary to design
> > what you are asking about.
> >
> > Arne

>
> C'mon Arne,
>
> Go easy on the guy. Many a junior programmer has made a great architect
> and we ought not to presume otherwise merely by virtue of a good
> question...
>
> Jason


yea arne. because your perception was wrong. i have 11 years
experience.
i designed the frameworking publishing "washingonpost.com" as well
as frameworks for "novartis", "deutsche banc" and the "department of
homeland security".
i've worked in asychronous messaging (jms) but not sychronous (web
services).
can i get a little help?

 
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Danno
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      11-01-2006

(E-Mail Removed) wrote:
> BioInfoGuy wrote:
> > Arne Vajh°j wrote:
> > > (E-Mail Removed) wrote:
> > > > I'm working in a large enterprise architecture. We'll be accessing
> > > > web services
> > > > (probably via an ESB). I didn't see any posts on it. I'm looking
> > > > for integration
> > > > patterns to access these services from a web framework (Spring).
> > >
> > > I think you need 5 years of experience with Java, J2EE and
> > > enterprise architecture.
> > >
> > > Sorry for the hard words, but the wording in your posting
> > > says that you do not have the experience necessary to design
> > > what you are asking about.
> > >
> > > Arne

> >
> > C'mon Arne,
> >
> > Go easy on the guy. Many a junior programmer has made a great architect
> > and we ought not to presume otherwise merely by virtue of a good
> > question...
> >
> > Jason

>
> yea arne. because your perception was wrong. i have 11 years
> experience.
> i designed the frameworking publishing "washingonpost.com" as well
> as frameworks for "novartis", "deutsche banc" and the "department of
> homeland security".
> i've worked in asychronous messaging (jms) but not sychronous (web
> services).
> can i get a little help?



Hehe, you're clearly a n00b.

I can help a little with you are asking. I just want to point out the
difference between SOA and Web Services. It took me a while to figure
out what people are going nuts about. SOA is, get this.....a business
facade. I have been hearing business people and fellow software
engineers go overboard on the definition, but that's all it is, and it
has nothing to do with Web Services. It is just "re-engineering" your
code to be more business-centric. The funny thing is that good
enterprise developers do that any way, which I am sure you do.

Now the key to enterprise Web Services is to integrate a WebServices
layer without any intrusion into your enterprise system. The JavaEE 5
Stack is coming out with a simple annotation that you can place on your
stateless session beans. The Apache Tuscany Project does too. As per
Spring 2.0, it seems you have to integrate all the pieces
(http://static.springframework.org/sp...remoting.html).
I am sure that the Spring guys will come up with a great solution soon
for an all-in-one stack.

 
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richardsosborn@gmail.com
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      11-01-2006
Danno wrote:
> (E-Mail Removed) wrote:
> > BioInfoGuy wrote:
> > > Arne Vajh°j wrote:
> > > > (E-Mail Removed) wrote:
> > > > > I'm working in a large enterprise architecture. We'll be accessing
> > > > > web services
> > > > > (probably via an ESB). I didn't see any posts on it. I'm looking
> > > > > for integration
> > > > > patterns to access these services from a web framework (Spring).
> > > >
> > > > I think you need 5 years of experience with Java, J2EE and
> > > > enterprise architecture.
> > > >
> > > > Sorry for the hard words, but the wording in your posting
> > > > says that you do not have the experience necessary to design
> > > > what you are asking about.
> > > >
> > > > Arne
> > >
> > > C'mon Arne,
> > >
> > > Go easy on the guy. Many a junior programmer has made a great architect
> > > and we ought not to presume otherwise merely by virtue of a good
> > > question...
> > >
> > > Jason

> >
> > yea arne. because your perception was wrong. i have 11 years
> > experience.
> > i designed the frameworking publishing "washingonpost.com" as well
> > as frameworks for "novartis", "deutsche banc" and the "department of
> > homeland security".
> > i've worked in asychronous messaging (jms) but not sychronous (web
> > services).
> > can i get a little help?

>
>
> Hehe, you're clearly a n00b.
>
> I can help a little with you are asking. I just want to point out the
> difference between SOA and Web Services. It took me a while to figure
> out what people are going nuts about. SOA is, get this.....a business
> facade. I have been hearing business people and fellow software
> engineers go overboard on the definition, but that's all it is, and it
> has nothing to do with Web Services. It is just "re-engineering" your
> code to be more business-centric. The funny thing is that good
> enterprise developers do that any way, which I am sure you do.
>
> Now the key to enterprise Web Services is to integrate a WebServices
> layer without any intrusion into your enterprise system. The JavaEE 5
> Stack is coming out with a simple annotation that you can place on your
> stateless session beans. The Apache Tuscany Project does too. As per
> Spring 2.0, it seems you have to integrate all the pieces
> (http://static.springframework.org/sp...remoting.html).
> I am sure that the Spring guys will come up with a great solution soon
> for an all-in-one stack.



this is what i was wondering. i've done EAI. i understand SOA fine.
i just don't know how to connect a web application to this. most
enterprise
code i've done was written around an existing enterprise application in
the
first place. and most of that was in JMS.

i see spring supports "services". that sounds like a good integration
point,
since it will probably be transactional. just wondering what to do if
they chose
struts, or something else. my thought right now is to use the service
support in
spring. if they go struts, create a session facade and expose a SSB
(EJB) as a web service.

 
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Tom Forsmo
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Posts: n/a
 
      11-01-2006
(E-Mail Removed) wrote:
> this is what i was wondering. i've done EAI. i understand SOA fine.
> i just don't know how to connect a web application to this. most
> enterprise
> code i've done was written around an existing enterprise application in
> the
> first place. and most of that was in JMS.
>
> i see spring supports "services". that sounds like a good integration
> point,
> since it will probably be transactional. just wondering what to do if
> they chose
> struts, or something else. my thought right now is to use the service
> support in
> spring. if they go struts, create a session facade and expose a SSB
> (EJB) as a web service.


Could you be a bit more clear on what you are asking about and also what
the architecture of the existing system is. That would make it a lot
easier to help you.

for example, you mention jms, is that the interface of the existing
systems? you also mention spring "services" are you talking about spring
support for web services/soap, jms or web app. And kind of client are
you looking to connect, a web app?

regards

tom
 
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richardsosborn@gmail.com
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Posts: n/a
 
      11-01-2006

Tom Forsmo wrote:
> (E-Mail Removed) wrote:
> > this is what i was wondering. i've done EAI. i understand SOA fine.
> > i just don't know how to connect a web application to this. most
> > enterprise
> > code i've done was written around an existing enterprise application in
> > the
> > first place. and most of that was in JMS.
> >
> > i see spring supports "services". that sounds like a good integration
> > point,
> > since it will probably be transactional. just wondering what to do if
> > they chose
> > struts, or something else. my thought right now is to use the service
> > support in
> > spring. if they go struts, create a session facade and expose a SSB
> > (EJB) as a web service.

>
> Could you be a bit more clear on what you are asking about and also what
> the architecture of the existing system is. That would make it a lot
> easier to help you.
>
> for example, you mention jms, is that the interface of the existing
> systems? you also mention spring "services" are you talking about spring
> support for web services/soap, jms or web app. And kind of client are
> you looking to connect, a web app?
>
> regards
>
> tom


right now, we're in design talks. the design calls for web
applications to connect to an enterprise service bus. this could
deliver both web service and jms message calls.
with the web framework being the client, it shouldn't really matter.
i'm looking for the nuts and bolts of how these will talk to each
other. i'm assuming you'd have to call from the business or service
layer of your web framework, do a lookup, start the transaction, and
call the service on the ESB.

spring seems to have it's own framework for accessing services. from
what i read
it is transactional. i would simply do a lookup on the ESB, start
spring's transaction, then
pass my web service query. j2ee also allows exposing an ejb as a web
service. i'm not sure how easily this could be rolled to work in the
SOA paradigm. i could also easily just write a stateless session bean
(ejb) and have it access the ESB. it could start off the transaction,
do the lookup on the ESB and pass the query. using spring seems the
most simple.

my last resort is to mimic a "data access object" pattern to create a
"service object
access" pattern. like dao, i would have high level objects for the
general services.
they would do the lookup against the ESB, began a JTA transaction. i
would then have finer grained classes represent the queries which will
be passed to the jms queues or web services.

i wasn't sure if anyone had done any of this before and had best
practices to share for all of us. i'm sure we'll be going through
iterations of trial and testing. i'll gladly share the results.
(except to arne).

 
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Manish Pandit
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Posts: n/a
 
      11-01-2006
Hi!

SOA brings a new paradigm of business awareness. Along with looking at
the technology, make sure you consider the cross-functional business
processes. Under the hood, SOA is essentially
identify->assemble->deploy cycle, where in you identify common
cross-functional tasks, model them as services, assemble multiple
services (tasks) to achieve a coarse grained functionality (process),
and deploy it. The core focus should be granularity and reusability -
the code can be EJBs, Spring Components or a mainframe sitting
somewhere. This brings in the whole Enterprise Integration scenario,
where in you might end up integrating some legacy systems via messaging
or something similar. Normally, businesses do not prefer "rewrite the
whole thing" idea, so there is always going to be some wrapping.
Speaking of technology, start with very common utilities that can be
reused across applications (like audit/logging/service invocation...)
so that you will have a framework to begin with. Along with identifying
services, focus on message specs (input/output XML schemas), security
etc. Implementing SOA is a pretty big effort, given the
cross-functional and multi-tiered nature of business applications.

Best of luck and do keep us posted!

-cheers,
Manish

 
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